heroic sacrifice

[Gentlemanloser]

Except that JotWW and Banishment directly affect the target, as evidenced by their characteristic tests.

 

And Malys doesn't need to be directly targetted.

 

Unless you're claiming that HS *doesn't* effect her in any way?

 

Psychic Shooting Attack =/= Self Buff.... Your point is moot.

 

I can imperiously point words at you too, see?

 

The fact of HS being only a self buff is currently debated. Check out the Aegis thead. Regardless, self buff or not, is immaterial. It's a moot point.

 

All that matters is if HS effects Malys or not.

 

Does it effect her?

 

Let me ask it another way. Would the BC be able to remove Malys from play, with no save, *without* using HS?

[Leonaides]

Seriously? Five pages? Of course she isnt immune to this power. Same way Khârn isnt immune from the effects of Sanguine Sword (since it simply makes the Librarians S10). He still gets hit at S10, she can still be removed from the table.

[Prathios]

Except that JotWW and Banishment directly affect the target, as evidenced by their characteristic tests.

 

And Malys doesn't need to be directly targetted.

 

Unless you're claiming that HS *doesn't* effect her in any way?

 

Psychic Shooting Attack =/= Self Buff.... Your point is moot.

 

I can imperiously point words at you too, see?

 

The fact of HS being only a self buff is currently debated. Check out the Aegis thead. Regardless, self buff or not, is immaterial. It's a moot point.

 

All that matters is if HS effects Malys or not.

 

Does it effect her?

 

Let me ask it another way. Would the BC be able to remove Malys from play, with no save, *without* using HS?

 

See you're on dangerous ground here bud... this effect slope is really slippery. Because if you consider the implication, anything can effect her. The difference I make is direct or indirect. If it's an indirect result of an effect on someone else then I don't feel her power works. Quicksilver and hammerhand do not effect her, the results of the powers do. Now is she immune to the results of psychic powers on other units? RAW does not say that she is. It says she is immune to effects of psychic powers, not immune to hits from people who are under the influence of psychic powers.

 

You know... I really hate this debate because honestly I understand where everyone is coming from. I just find the lack of logic in some of these rules incredible. Just remember that she is not directly effected by the powers but is indirectly effected. The direct effect is attached to the guy who cast the power.

 

At this point though if everyone understands the others position I think it's a pointless debate. Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go have nightmares about psychic immunity and grenade sized lance templates... *shudder*

[Angelis Mortis]

For those nay sayers, do you argue she is also immune to the Eldar power Guide? Guide is a psychic power which allows the user to see the future allowing a unit picked to re-roll to hit rolls in the shooting phase. The mechanics are the same as HH and HS. Cast on your own unit providing a new special rule. No direct effect on the Lady to be immune to.

[Gentlemanloser]

LoL!

 

Yay for terribly generically wordred and powerful rules eh? :D

 

Still, while I would make the case agianst Malys being immune to HH, I wouldn't for HS. HS is a Psychic Attack. Much like a Psychic Shooting power. It's just a CC attack requiring a WS to-ht to suceed, rather than a sooting attack requiring a BS to-hit to succeed.

 

Fluff aside, that really what HS boils down to.

 

A Psychic CC Attack.

 

For those nay sayers, do you argue she is also immune to the Eldar power Guide? Guide is a psychic power which allows the user to see the future allowing a unit picked to re-roll to hit rolls in the shooting phase. The mechanics are the same as HH and HS. Cast on your own unit providing a new special rule. No direct effect on the Lady to be immune to.

 

Yes.

 

Much the same that she is immune to VoT. Which is cast *on* the Harlies.

 

And Null rods have been used versus VoT ever since the Harlies got updated. ;)

[BrotherWasted]

Seriously? Five pages? Of course she isnt immune to this power. Same way Khârn isnt immune from the effects of Sanguine Sword (since it simply makes the Librarians S10). He still gets hit at S10, she can still be removed from the table.

 

 

Uh, no. Khârn is immune to Sanguine Sword because Sanguine Sword doesn't do anything to Khârn. It doesn't make any changes to an enemy, it just makes the user S10. Sanguine Sword works exactly like Hammerhand in this instance, it has no effect on Khârn/Malys/Null Rod, so there is nothing to even be immune to.

 

Heroic Sacrifice DOES affect someone - Malys in this situation both gets an attack made against her, and may also be removed from play as a result of the psychic power. This means she would be removed from play by an effect of the power, and therefore she is immune.

 

@GL: you just made the case for Malys being immune to HS right there.

 

HS is a Psychic Attack. Much like a Psychic Shooting power. It's just a CC attack requiring a WS to-ht to suceed, rather than a sooting attack requiring a BS to-hit to succeed.

 

Correct. It is a psychic attack. A PSYCHIC attack, made due to the successful cast of a Psychic Power - the effects of which Malys is "completely immune" to.

 

There is no bad wording this time, some players just need to read a dictionary - an effect is an effect, whether you intentionally target Malys or not. What is the effect of a Psychic Power? Everything that happens after you pass your Psychic test.

 

How about I put it THIS way: HS is a Psychic melee attack, which is the first listed effect in the rules:

 

The Brotherhood Champion immediately makes an attack against an enemy model who was in base to base contact when he died.....

.

 

Regardless of what happens if that attack was successful, Malys is immune to this attack in the first place as it originates from a Psychic power.

[XaClocKWorKoX]

this is like the untouchable mage in high elfs in fantasy.

[Grimtooth]

While I agree with you on HS Gentleman, I do not agree with you on HH.

 

As I pointed out,

 

What is the effect of HS?

 

An attack that removes a model from play if it hits.

 

Who does the effect of HS affect?

 

A model in base to base with the BC is removed from play.

 

Malys is immune to the effects of psychic powers and thus is not affected by them.

 

Now as much as people want to separate the psychic power from the attack, they fail to see that the effect of the attack if it hits affects the model in base to base by removing it as a casualty from play. However they cannot point to the attack profile or special rules that give the BC an attack that removes a model from play just by hitting it. The attack that removes the model in base to base is the AFFECT of the EFFECT of HS. That is why Malys is immune.

 

Look at how this matches to HH which would affect Malys

 

What is the effect of Hammerhand?

 

It give +1Str to the unit until the end of the assault phase.

 

Who does the effect of Hammerhand affect?

 

The unit it was cast on.

 

Now, Hammerhand affects the unit. It makes the unit more capable of wounding, it DOES NOT make the target more susceptible to be wounded. Unlike HS, the AFFECT of the EFFECT of HH is that the unit gets +1 Strength. That is it. HH does not make Malys weaker, it makes the unit stronger and therefore she is not immune to it.

 

The main problem is that people have no idea of AFFECT and EFFECT.

[Angelis Mortis]

What is the effect of HS?

 

An attack that removes a model from play if it hits.

 

Who does the effect of HS affect?

 

A model in base to base with the BC is removed from play.

 

Malys is immune to the effects of psychic powers and thus is not affected by them.

 

Now as much as people want to separate the psychic power from the attack, they fail to see that the effect of the attack if it hits affects the model in base to base by removing it as a casualty from play. However they cannot point to the attack profile or special rules that give the BC an attack that removes a model from play just by hitting it. The attack that removes the model in base to base is the AFFECT of the EFFECT of HS. That is why Malys is immune.

 

Inquisitor Mortis delcares this is heresy.

 

 

 

Look at how this matches to HH which would affect Malys

 

What is the effect of Hammerhand?

 

It give +1Str to the unit until the end of the assault phase.

 

Who does the effect of Hammerhand affect?

 

The unit it was cast on.

 

Now, Hammerhand affects the unit. It makes the unit more capable of wounding, it DOES NOT make the target more susceptible to be wounded. Unlike HS, the AFFECT of the EFFECT of HH is that the unit gets +1 Strength. That is it. HH does not make Malys weaker, it makes the unit stronger and therefore she is not immune to it.

 

The main problem is that people have no idea of AFFECT and EFFECT.

 

Inquisitor Mortis declares this Correctamundo Extremis and would also point out that HS and HH follow the exact same mechanic.

[Grimtooth]

For those nay sayers, do you argue she is also immune to the Eldar power Guide? Guide is a psychic power which allows the user to see the future allowing a unit picked to re-roll to hit rolls in the shooting phase. The mechanics are the same as HH and HS. Cast on your own unit providing a new special rule. No direct effect on the Lady to be immune to.

 

Guide works like HH, but not like HS.

 

Guide does not make Malys easier to hit, it makes the Eldar unit hit easier.

[armbarred]

For me, it comes down to this:

 

Would the BhC get to an attack like HS without rolling a psychic test... No. Then yes, it is an attack that malys (and anyone in her unit), gargantuan creatures, super heavy vehicles, and kharne are immune to. Do things like WTT or Runic Armour work? I think so yes, for the same reason.

[Grimtooth]

For me, it comes down to this:

 

Would the BhC get to an attack like HS without rolling a psychic test... No. Then yes, it is an attack that malys (and anyone in her unit), gargantuan creatures, super heavy vehicles, and kharne are immune to. Do things like WTT or Runic Armour work? I think so yes, for the same reason.

 

WTT does, but Runic Armor doesn't.