Grey Knights- not sold on them for competitive play

[Prototype]

After numerous games with the Grey Knights, and the input of many of my Grey Knight playing friends, it has become apparent that the Grey Knights are not very competitive at higher levels of play. Can they compete or win? Of course, but then again so can any codex out there. The problem here is people cry broken and overpowered when they see or hear the rules of the Grey Knights, until they actually play with it enough to no longer be caught by surprise - the initial victories many people would have with their Grey Knights would be mainly because the enemy is ill-prepared for facing them as they are new, but once people catch up, the faction loses its "bling" rapidly.

 

I'm not saying they are at the bottom of the pile, but I'd say probably T2 or so, not up there with the Wolves or IG, or even arguably the BA.

 

Problems:

HQ --> only the Librarian and Inquisitor seems to be a good option (as is Coteaz) but even then the Librarian is bogged down by Terminator Armor, which costs points and makes him a pain to transport. It would have been nicer to have just a naked simple Librarian option like what other Marine armies get. Most of the HQ choices are mostly for casual games.

 

Elites --> There is some good stuff here, but then again:

Vindicare - people like this guy a lot, but really, he gets a maximum of six shots a game, and often less. And out of all those shots some will fail as anything short of the Hellfire or Turbo Penetrator (against vehicles) has a good chance of failing. The main reason to take him IMO is to nuke AV14 vehicles very reliably. And for some reason, people are terrified of him. He is good, but not some godlike weapon of mass destruction some make him out to be.

 

Paladins - a good anchor but nothing else. They don't hit very hard for their points (10 guys cost at least 550 points and only have 20 attacks when not charging - and you often won't get the charge unless you pay for a transport), and throwing enough S8+ weapons at them will rapidly diminish their numbers. Given the proliferation of Melta weapons they aren't impossible to kill.

 

Purifiers - I think these are subject to the Sternguard bling. When Codex SM came out, many were excited to play Sternguard spam, but as it turns out not many even do that now. While they bring some good kill power to the table, they cost a lot per model. Still good though, but I'll talk about cost later on...

 

Troops --> Terminator squads are not very good, as they cost a lot of points, don't hit very hard, and simply aren't that difficult to dislodge for their points. Enough low AP or dedicated assault units will ruin them. As for the GKSS, it eludes me why many thing these guys are awesome in combat - they aren't, and if you consider that everyone is forced to pay for their power weapons, you soon realize they aren't that cheap either as four points per model seems worth it for a force weapon until you realize that your models are really one attack each, your numbers would usually be diminished so all their power weapons go to waste, and that against anyone not in power armor or equivalent the very marginal increase in combat effectiveness isn't worth it.

 

Henchmen on the other hand are good for their points, but if you take a lot of them the army rapidly no longer resembles a Grey Knight army.

 

Fast Attack --> Interceptors have uses but cost a lot. Stormravens are interesting as they aren't as flimsy as many people might have you think: that AV12 skimmer doesn't magically disintegrate when a few guns are trailed on it but it is not very tough either, and costs a lot.

 

Heavy Support --> Land Raiders cost too much, Purgation Squads are only barely worth it for the 100-point Incinerator spam unit, Dreadknights don't have many attacks for their points. The Psyfle Dread, however, is good.

 

Looking at them in pieces makes the army sound alright, until you realize a dangerous trend:

Due to the high points costs of all the units, coupled with the general lack of actual attacks throughout the board, what you end up with in any game is a few bodies, each with very few attacks. This is unlike other Space Marine armies because unlike Codex Marines you do not have a reliable way of transporting your Terminators without severely gimping your model count even more (aka the Land Raider is even less affordable to the Grey Knights because we already lack bodies...and we don't have Shrike), we lack meltas/missiles (face it, the Psycannon when fired while moving on Power Armor is really just a rending Autocannon, its not a miracle gun. Rends happen on a roll of a 6 friends), we lack the ability to amass bodies like the SWs (Razorspam with Grey Hunters and Long Fangs gives you a huge model count for a Marine army, with each Marine hitting about as hard as a Grey Knight when not charging, but with meltas and missiles), and the army as a whole lacks the mobility of the BA, relying entirely on either transports (which can die), Deep Striking (which can mishap) or paying through their noses for teleporters.

 

Anyway those are my thoughts, it would be great if the replies were constructive and much appreciation in advance for them.

[Abaddonshand]

I think (and I'm fairly certain many here will agree with me) that you are mistaking competitiveness for lack of an Instant Win button, and balance for weaknesses.

 

Grey knights are a very surprising codex giveng the leaked rumours, and the prior power armoured codexes. I think people miss the fact that failing to live up to the rumours, or to SW is not a weakness, but rather a balance. The flaw is in the perception of SW, who arguably could be said to be over powered. My personal belief is that they are not over powered, I simply think they are a rock paper scissors army, my experience fighting them is that my nids hamme them, while my deathwing struggle. SW seem to excel killing marine foes, which makes sense, given what the emperor wanted to use them for in the fluff.

 

GK also excel killing marines (power weapons - GKSS will beat a tac squad, they will), but fall down somewhat when meeting dedicated marine killers, which makes sense from a balance perspective, as they are also marines. However just because their stats make them marines, to play them using standard marine tactics is very much a flawed methodology. Yes they die like marines, but they need to live like GK for players to the most out of them.

 

Yes, GKSS aren't the be all end all in CC, but they are one of the best combination CC-Shooty units in game, especially when equipped with psybolts, which I'm considering mandatory as long as they don't drain effectiveness from else where. People who say GKSS are useless strike me as the same type (if not the very same) people as those who claim tactical squads are useless.

[BrotherWasted]

All the complaints have been made before. The GK codex is not anything close to overpowered, only fools who can't read a book think that it's full of bling.

 

What I will say are the following:

 

HQ: Grandmasters are an excellent HQ choice. Taking him frees up Troops slots that can be occupied by other units in the Codex for objective based games, he can grant your squads Counter-Attack, or get those Terminators up into cover before the game starts with Scout.

 

Elites: The Vindicare is not a weapon of mass destruction. But I can almost guarantee in my games that I will make at least double his points back by picking off important things like AV14 or taking shots at HQ squads with hellfire rounds. I get to allocate his wounds, and he shoots at AP1. Over three or so turns, he can take down an LR, make the Hammernators inside footslog, and insta-gib that Rune Priest, Librarian or Sanguinary Priest. That is why people are afraid of him - they now have to protect their important units or get them into assault quickly so he can't shoot at them.

 

Troops: Nobody thinks a Strike Squad is awesome in combat. But, tell you what. You charge that squad of Grey Hunters (no prejudice, they simply have the most attacks for MEQ troops) on them after I've given them Counter-Attack. A model with 2 Force Weapon attacks is superior to a model with 3 attacks that allow saves. They are not awesome in CC, but they have twice the shooting of a Tactical Squad or Grey Hunter Pack and can wound them on 3+. As I continue to state - yes, my squad would quite likely be diminished if you charge me, but the same situation applies to you when I charge you with a full squad. Grey Knights take the initiative and strike first whenever possible. They don't just sit back and wait to get charged if they can help it. Everybody always talks about how they wipe out Strike Squads when they charge, but they never realise what happens when the situation is reversed.

 

Henchmen are awesome. And seriously, if you think that "if you take a lot of them the army rapidly no longer resembles a Grey Knight army" is a bad thing, then you shouldn't be playing 40K.

 

Fast Attack: Skip it.

 

Heavy Support: 5 Psycannons in a Purgation Squad is horrendous for any squad to face.

 

The Psycannon when fired on the move is a Rending Autocannon, yes, but what about the other 16 S5 Storm Bolter Shots coming out of your squad? There is no squad in the game that wants to suffer that much wound saturation, not even MEQ. Rending happens more than people might like to think (remember,you have FOUR to EIGHT chances to score a 6 every time you shoot, plus you can get multiple Rends), not to mention the weapon itself is statistically superior to a Lascannon for penetrating AV13 and 14. Nobody has proclaimed it as a miracle gun; it is however, quite possibly the perfect weapon for an army that is designed to always move and shoot at full-capacity. Note that there are no Heavy Weapons in the GK Codex with a handful of exceptions. A GK Army will run down MEQ through wound saturation and assault, not through AP value alone.

 

I'll put it this way - would you rather the Psycannon be S7/AP3? Let's see you complain then as I take Crowe and let loose 96 of those shots first turn.

 

Missiles and Melta? Missiles you have a point, but like most Marine squads, and dare I say almost all other armies too, your special weapons don't mean crap to me unless you're 18" away from (so you can move and then rapid fire me). In the meantime, I can stay that extra 12" away and blast your squad in half.

 

The book is balanced, I can't really stress how many times this needs to be said.

[Hellios]

personally my only complaints about the codex are warrior acolytes being a bit expensive (the upgrades rather than the basecost) and not being able to take GKGMs and Librarians in Artificer armour.

 

However I don't think GKs will change the game that much (Guard will still be king if played well and a bit of luck) and while GKs are more expensive than many other marines for a stormbolter and force weapon I can't say they are bad. Yes maybe some of the units might have done with a bit of tweaking but jeez give the Grey Knights some time to get on the field and we will see how they do. Oh also wait until we have the FAQ that resolves the 501 questions people have!

[number6]

I find it amusing that when people want to complain that the GK codex isn't competitive, they always want to compare it to the SW codex and nearly always Grey Hunter units.

 

Dear Nay-sayers: Stop playing the GKs like they are lesser Astartes. They aren't. They have power armour and terminator armour. They have Rhinos and Razorbacks and land raiders.

 

And there the similarity ends. The GKs are not an assault army. Nor are they a pure firepower army. They are a mid-range mobile firepower force with significant counterassault potential. Stop trying to make them play like Blood Angels and Space Wolves. That is Total Fail.

 

If you want an assault-oriented Marine force, you have the Blood Angels.

If you want wonky magic powers and cavalry, you have the Space Wolves.

If you want pure firepower, it's tough to beat the vanilla Marines codex.

 

GKs are none of those things.

[Angelis Mortis]

All the complaints have been made before. The GK codex is not anything close to overpowered, only fools who can't read a book think that it's full of bling.

 

What I will say are the following:

 

HQ: Grandmasters are an excellent HQ choice. Taking him frees up Troops slots that can be occupied by other units in the Codex for objective based games, he can grant your squads Counter-Attack, or get those Terminators up into cover before the game starts with Scout.

 

Elites: The Vindicare is not a weapon of mass destruction. But I can almost guarantee in my games that I will make at least double his points back by picking off important things like AV14 or taking shots at HQ squads with hellfire rounds. I get to allocate his wounds, and he shoots at AP1. Over three or so turns, he can take down an LR, make the Hammernators inside footslog, and insta-gib that Rune Priest, Librarian or Sanguinary Priest. That is why people are afraid of him - they now have to protect their important units or get them into assault quickly so he can't shoot at them.

 

Troops: Nobody thinks a Strike Squad is awesome in combat. But, tell you what. You charge that squad of Grey Hunters (no prejudice, they simply have the most attacks for MEQ troops) on them after I've given them Counter-Attack. A model with 2 Force Weapon attacks is superior to a model with 3 attacks that allow saves. They are not awesome in CC, but they have twice the shooting of a Tactical Squad or Grey Hunter Pack and can wound them on 3+. As I continue to state - yes, my squad would quite likely be diminished if you charge me, but the same situation applies to you when I charge you with a full squad. Grey Knights take the initiative and strike first whenever possible. They don't just sit back and wait to get charged if they can help it. Everybody always talks about how they wipe out Strike Squads when they charge, but they never realise what happens when the situation is reversed.

 

Henchmen are awesome. And seriously, if you think that "if you take a lot of them the army rapidly no longer resembles a Grey Knight army" is a bad thing, then you shouldn't be playing 40K.

 

Fast Attack: Skip it.

 

Heavy Support: 5 Psycannons in a Purgation Squad is horrendous for any squad to face.

 

The Psycannon when fired on the move is a Rending Autocannon, yes, but what about the other 16 S5 Storm Bolter Shots coming out of your squad? There is no squad in the game that wants to suffer that much wound saturation, not even MEQ. Rending happens more than people might like to think (remember,you have FOUR to EIGHT chances to score a 6 every time you shoot, plus you can get multiple Rends), not to mention the weapon itself is statistically superior to a Lascannon for penetrating AV13 and 14. Nobody has proclaimed it as a miracle gun; it is however, quite possibly the perfect weapon for an army that is designed to always move and shoot at full-capacity. Note that there are no Heavy Weapons in the GK Codex with a handful of exceptions. A GK Army will run down MEQ through wound saturation and assault, not through AP value alone.

 

I'll put it this way - would you rather the Psycannon be S7/AP3? Let's see you complain then as I take Crowe and let loose 96 of those shots first turn.

 

Missiles and Melta? Missiles you have a point, but like most Marine squads, and dare I say almost all other armies too, your special weapons don't mean crap to me unless you're 18" away from (so you can move and then rapid fire me). In the meantime, I can stay that extra 12" away and blast your squad in half.

 

The book is balanced, I can't really stress how many times this needs to be said.

 

Excellent summarization. I wholeheartedly agree that most people looking at the GK codex and making the same comments as the OP really haven't thought the list out yet. There is a tremendous amount of flexiblity and customization in it. You can literally customize a list to be awesome at any task, but the real kicker is, you can generalize it to be above average at everything. I think for the first time, your going to start seeing some GK lists take tournies.

[lorider2]

Lets cut to the chase - it will not be as easy for Grey Knight to win games as IG or SW. If that is your only comparison and concern, just do us a favor and stick with IG or SW. Both codexes are extremely strong and you will find it easier to win 40k games. But if you get beat by a weaker codex, and its certainly possible, please be sure to praise your opponent's skill - or maybe just luck. :cuss very

[Angelis Mortis]

If you want an assault-oriented Marine force, you have the Blood Angels.

If you want wonky magic powers and cavalry, you have the Space Wolves.

If you want pure firepower, it's tough to beat the vanilla Marines codex.

 

GKs are none of those things.

 

Absolutely disagree with you. Quite the contrary, GK are all of those things at the same time. Better than BA in assault, way better than SW in Psykers, and way more firepower than Space Marines. I can break it down for you if you want.

[number6]

If you want an assault-oriented Marine force, you have the Blood Angels.

If you want wonky magic powers and cavalry, you have the Space Wolves.

If you want pure firepower, it's tough to beat the vanilla Marines codex.

 

GKs are none of those things.

 

Absolutely disagree with you. Quite the contrary, GK are all of those things at the same time. Better than BA in assault, way better than SW in Psykers, and way more firepower than Space Marines. I can break it down for you if you want.

:cuss Good luck! If GKs really were all of that, they would be the I Win Easy Button. You're fooling yourself if you can't see the actual capability differences between the 5e Marines codexes.

[DV8]

If you want an assault-oriented Marine force, you have the Blood Angels.

If you want wonky magic powers and cavalry, you have the Space Wolves.

If you want pure firepower, it's tough to beat the vanilla Marines codex.

 

GKs are none of those things.

 

Absolutely disagree with you. Quite the contrary, GK are all of those things at the same time. Better than BA in assault, way better than SW in Psykers, and way more firepower than Space Marines. I can break it down for you if you want.

:whistling: Good luck! If GKs really were all of that, they would be the I Win Easy Button. You're fooling yourself if you can't see the actual capability differences between the 5e Marines codexes.

 

You're both wrong. Barring "cavalry" (and even then Thunderwolves aren't really that great), any of the Space Marine codices (Grey Knights included) can do all of those things. But the manner in which they do them will vary because that different play-style is what sets the codices apart.

 

Blood Angels have faster vehicles, but pay the points for them; the ability to take Assault Troops (and trade their jump packs for a 35 point discount on dedicated transports) means that Blood Angels will typically be a faster, more aggressive army.

 

Space Wolves have some of the cheapest, most effective infantry of all the Space Marine codices; Grey Hunters, point for point, kick-ass. But the options for each unit relegates them to a particular role; Grey Hunters, for example, excel in the close range (12"-24") and are effective at thinning out the enemy with rapid-fire Bolters before absorbing a charge with Counter-Attack. Long Fangs, on the other hand, pack tons of firepower, but lack the numbers to soak hits. A Space Wolf army relies more on unit/army synergy than on hammer units to bring the enemy down, and contains in it a versatility in the book that allows it to, through balanced army composition, take down virtually any other army out there by using its tools effectively and efficiently.

 

Space Marines have the most flexible book of the Space Marines, with special characters that unlock different Combat Tactics that drastically affect the way the army plays; coupled with the ability to combat squad, to automatically elect to fall back, access to things like Sternguard, Thunderfire Cannons, etc. just to name a few, makes vanilla Space Marines the ultimate jack of trades. They lack the fast aggressiveness of Blood Angels, and the unit efficiency of Space Wolves, but the trade off is a flexible book that can do so many different things dependent on how the user wants to play.

 

Grey Knights, much like the other Space Marines out there, are not a combat army. Any player looking to build a combat-army out of the Grey Knight book is setting themselves up to lose (especially in competitive play). Nor do they lack in firepower; the amount of Psycannons, Psy-bolt Storm Bolters, and things like Orbital Strike Relays, Psy-bolt Autocannons, etc. that they can bring is frightening, but the majority of that is mid-range firepower (24"). Thus Grey Knights need to optimize unit upgrades to keep their units streamlined yet still effective, mobile enough to bring their firepower to bear quickly, and durable enough to weather hits and focus on objectives.

 

With how expensive the individual units/models are, and how restrictive some of their options can be (the latter in a way very similar to Space Wolves), Grey Knight players will need to skip past many of the shiny toys to ensure a varied, balanced core of units that will allow them to combat any opponent. Relying on hammer units is not something Grey Knights can do.

 

This does also make the Grey Knights codex one of the harder Space Marine armies to play (I would rank Codex: Space Marines the hardest, with Codex: Space Wolves the easiest).

 

 

DV8

[Tybrus]

Never forget the POINT of the Grey Knights...They Kill Deamons and they do it DAMN WELL. The talk over how they stack up via SW, or BA... not their jobs! Now in the off times they must battle something else they are still DAMN GOOD, but that is always a secondary mission. I have played since the first days, and have almost every army out there in my game room, and all of them are designed around the fluff for the army. I play to have fun, but I am competitive and enjoy a good game. If you are the type of person that has to win no matter what, then try BA for the "God Book" or whatever.

 

The SW book is great and I say that for one reason only...It encourages Fluff play! Take a Saga and here is what you must do, if you care anything for honor at all. I see the GK's as the same way. The book is well written and allows forces to be created that are fluffy. My only disappointment is that they included Inquisitor's but no use of Imperial forces other then the Grey Knights. Since all 3 inquisitors are listed, all options should be included (Inducted guard ect.) That said if you stick to the fluff and play that way you will have fun, and if your not a dim blub will start winning more and more games as you play the army. Just like anything else the better you know your weapon (In this case your army) the better you are able to use it...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

People want EZ button armies then find out it is a balanced codex. Happens all the time.

 

G :whistling:

[DV8]

People want EZ button armies then find out it is a balanced codex. Happens all the time.

 

G :whistling:

 

You missed the inevitable QQing that follows when they realize the hundreds of dollars they spent on their new shiny army won't be any easier to play (or win with) than the last new shiny army they bought.

 

 

DV8

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I did indeed.

 

G :ph34r:

[Angelis Mortis]

If you want an assault-oriented Marine force, you have the Blood Angels.

If you want wonky magic powers and cavalry, you have the Space Wolves.

If you want pure firepower, it's tough to beat the vanilla Marines codex.

 

GKs are none of those things.

 

Absolutely disagree with you. Quite the contrary, GK are all of those things at the same time. Better than BA in assault, way better than SW in Psykers, and way more firepower than Space Marines. I can break it down for you if you want.

:ph34r: Good luck! If GKs really were all of that, they would be the I Win Easy Button. You're fooling yourself if you can't see the actual capability differences between the 5e Marines codexes.

 

Alright, Ill break it down for you then.

 

Plain Jane comparison, no frills.

 

10xGKSS Squad = 200pts.

 

10xBA Tactical Squad = 180 pts.

 

10xSW Grey Hunters= 150 pts

 

10xSM Tactical Squad= 180 pts.

 

 

Lets do mathhammer!

 

GKSS vs BA Tac and SM Tac (Virtually the same)

 

1 rnd of Shooting at 24"

 

10 GKSS = 20 SB shots, 14 hits, 7 wnds, 2 BA/SM/SWGH Tacs Die

10 SM/BA/SWGH = 10 BG shots, 5 hits, 3 wnds, 1 GK Die

 

2nd rnd shooting at 12" (assuming both close 6")

 

9 GKSS = 18 SB shots, 9 hits, 5 wnds, 2 BA/SM/SGH die

8 SM/BA/SWGH = 16 BG shots, 8 hits, 4 wnds, 1 GKSS die

 

Assault:

 

Assuming GKSS makes charge because SM/BA/SWGH weapons are rapid fire

 

8 GKSS=16 NFW attacks, 8 hits, 6 SM/BA/SWGH die at Init 4 (S5 for hammerhand)

6 SM/BA=7 CCW attacks, 4 hits, 2 wnds, no deaths at Init 4

6 SWGH(likely)=18 CCW attacks, 9 hits, 5 wnds, 2 GKSS death at Init 4

 

 

Now, if we assume the SM/BA/SWGH didnt shoot last round, and then they got the charge.

 

9 GKSS= 9 NFW attack, 5 hits, 3 SM/BA/SWGH die at Init 4(S5 for hammerhand)

8 SM/BA= 17 CCW attacks, 9 hits, 5 wnds, 2 GKSS die

8 SWGH= 24 CCW attacks, 12 hits, 6 wnds, 2 GKSS die

 

2nd rnd

 

7 GKSS= 8 NFW attacks, 4 hits, 3 dead SM/BA/SWGH

5 SM/BA= 6 CCW attacks, 3 hits, 2 wnds, no deaths

5 SWGH= 10 CCW attacks, 5 hits, 3 wnds, 1 death

 

3rnd and beyond mathhammer withstanding, its just a matter of attrition until GK wipe out the rest of the squads.

 

When you start adding the other shenanigans in like Psybolts, Halberds, Psycannons, etc, you will even with BA/SM/SW upgrades, they are still going to get mopped in both shooting and assault. Heck, just adding a GKGM could of given the GKSS counterattack for even more sliding their way. No matter how you slice it, GK are better in all areas than standard marines. Just the ability to fire everything you got and still assault at full potential places them far above even SW and BA. Where the GK are challenged at is in numbers. Literally the SW and BA will have to attrit GK by numbers, toe-to-toe will not cut it in any standard comparison. (Again I say, imagine that. The most Elite Marines are better than all the others at everything. They are called ELITE OF THE ELITE for a reason.)

 

REMEMBER MY ORIGINAL POINT: GK can out do the other SM chapters in each area at the same time. I just demonstrated with basic troops that they outshot the standards, and then followed up and out assaulted both giving and receiving the charge.

[breng77]

Except that comparing unit for unit at unveven point costs prove nothing.

 

1.) When was the last time you saw a BA player run Tactical marines.

2.) When was the last time you saw any marine player not run special weapons (for 200 points said wolf player could kit out his squad with 2 special weapons and a fist, figure out the wounds in that scenario it won't be so pretty.

3.)Units in a vacuum mean nothing, that example is providing that none of the squads are mounted in vehicles, and have no other characters supporting them.

4.) at over 24" for equal points BA and SM tacs can outshoot the GKs as they have options to take guns that shoot further.

5.) With the exception of Transports, Dreads or Henchman Grey knights, have little firepower over 24"

 

I'm not arguing that GKs are not going to be at all competitive, I do fall into the "they're not like other marines" category.

 

Lets look at some equal point examples

 

10 BA assault marines with 1 melta gun vs 10 GKSS

 

At 13-24" the assault marines don't shoot so GKs liekly get 1 round of shooting

killing ~ 2 BA

 

Then the BA jump in shoot 1 melta and 7 pistols probably about 1 kill (2.33 wounds from pistol, .56 from melta) Then they assault

 

at I 4 the BA swing 24 times, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 GKs dead.

GKs swing 10 times, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds (slightly better off, cannot assume hammerhand)

 

SO it is not that the GKs are bad, but when the BA player runs other better assaulting units/priests it will change things alot.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Math hammer falls short often. You are trying to compare apples and oranges... I prefer oranges. ;)

 

G ;)

[Joasht]

As a BA player, I must say that for the BAs it is very difficult to compare them without taking into account the buff bubble of the Sanguinary Priest. FnP makes a difference, and although GKs get force weapons, it means that your guns are only doing 1/2 as much damage as they usually would. Furious Charge, well, is Furious Charge. That said, math hammer cannot be done in a vacuum, not only because each army has different support options. GKSS are also pretty well equipped for dealing with MEQs, but issue here is that the rest of the GK army is generally smaller.

[Brovius]

To be honest, the GK codex is a tough one to figure out. We essentially have a whole lot of units that fulfil the same role

 

For people fighting over GKT and GKSS, why not use both? A squad of each has some pretty good synergy. For example, in 500pts you can fit 5-man GKT, 10-man GKSS squad and an inquisitor in 500, with 3 wonderguns. If that isn't enough, you can even weave the squads together , having 4GKSS in fromt of the GKT, and 6 behind (plus inquisitor) and prepare for a few bad words thrown your way as your entire 500pt army has a 4+ cover save while advancing

[DV8]

To be honest, the GK codex is a tough one to figure out. We essentially have a whole lot of units that fulfil the same role

 

For people fighting over GKT and GKSS, why not use both? A squad of each has some pretty good synergy. For example, in 500pts you can fit 5-man GKT, 10-man GKSS squad and an inquisitor in 500, with 3 wonderguns. If that isn't enough, you can even weave the squads together , having 4GKSS in fromt of the GKT, and 6 behind (plus inquisitor) and prepare for a few bad words thrown your way as your entire 500pt army has a 4+ cover save while advancing

 

It's been FAQ'd by GW (the rulebook FAQ) that units that give another unit a cover save, cannot then be given a cover save from the unit they're covering. In this case, because the Strike Squad is already giving a cover save to the Terminators, the Strike Squad cannot then claim a cover save from the Terminators because they have six models behind them.

 

It was in direct response to the large masses of WAAC players who would interweave large mobs of, for example, Ork Boys in an attempt to feed cover saves from each unit to each other.

 

 

DV8

[Joasht]

To be honest, the GK codex is a tough one to figure out. We essentially have a whole lot of units that fulfil the same role

 

For people fighting over GKT and GKSS, why not use both? A squad of each has some pretty good synergy. For example, in 500pts you can fit 5-man GKT, 10-man GKSS squad and an inquisitor in 500, with 3 wonderguns. If that isn't enough, you can even weave the squads together , having 4GKSS in fromt of the GKT, and 6 behind (plus inquisitor) and prepare for a few bad words thrown your way as your entire 500pt army has a 4+ cover save while advancing

 

It's been FAQ'd by GW (the rulebook FAQ) that units that give another unit a cover save, cannot then be given a cover save from the unit they're covering. In this case, because the Strike Squad is already giving a cover save to the Terminators, the Strike Squad cannot then claim a cover save from the Terminators because they have six models behind them.

 

It was in direct response to the large masses of WAAC players who would interweave large mobs of, for example, Ork Boys in an attempt to feed cover saves from each unit to each other.

 

 

DV8

If it wasn't FAQ'ed my Tyranid-playing cousin would have an absolute field day hiding all his Termagants and Genes amongst.....other Termagants and Genes. Slightly off-topic, but I think 5th ed. is still FAR too liberal with cover saves....../endrant.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

GKs fight demons, and are always going to be outnumbered, so they are designed for guerilla tactics - assault weapons that they can shoot on the move, and the basic troop choice, Terminators, is basically always going to be equipped with halberds, letting him hit first in most engagements.

 

I think they did a good job keeping this idea in mind when designing the newest incarnation of them, and can't wait to get mine assembled and on the table.

[maligncomedy]

I'll just repost what I said to the space wolves bout this:

 

1 Daemonhammer to every 5 Marines

1-2 Halberds to every 5 Marines

Justicar will probably Mastercraft

Expect 1-2 psycannons. Incinerators will be avoided for the most part, and psilencers < psycannons.

Stave will be avoided. Falchions possible, but unlikely.

 

^Squad set up. Most likely followed by Strike Squads/GKT/Purifiers.

 

Termis may be used competitively but will fall short to Strike Squad lists and Henchman lists.

 

Psyriflemen dreads

bare-bones rhinos

Chimeras (if inquisition)

dreadknights are possible but vastly outstripped by the psyrifleman

 

^extra armor will be avoided.

 

 

expect an assassin (probably Vindicare the most), possibly Purifiers (especially with Crowe....he makes them viable due to his low points cost and their relatively small increase in price for what they bring), possibly paladins but not as much as I would think purifiers (although these guys will probably have a large amount of weapon groups for nob-biker effect), and possibly a Ven Dread if they have the points.

 

^in place of elites, if any will probably be Vindicare and Purifiers if mono GK.

 

 

HQ wise I imagine either Coteaz/Crowe or librarian (The Summoning/Might of Titan/Quicksilver) being most common. GM/Draigo (if termi/draigowing)/Brother Captain next. Brotherhood Champion will be avoided.

[Angelis Mortis]

Except that comparing unit for unit at unveven point costs prove nothing.

 

1.) When was the last time you saw a BA player run Tactical marines.

2.) When was the last time you saw any marine player not run special weapons (for 200 points said wolf player could kit out his squad with 2 special weapons and a fist, figure out the wounds in that scenario it won't be so pretty.

3.)Units in a vacuum mean nothing, that example is providing that none of the squads are mounted in vehicles, and have no other characters supporting them.

4.) at over 24" for equal points BA and SM tacs can outshoot the GKs as they have options to take guns that shoot further.

5.) With the exception of Transports, Dreads or Henchman Grey knights, have little firepower over 24"

 

I'm not arguing that GKs are not going to be at all competitive, I do fall into the "they're not like other marines" category.

 

Lets look at some equal point examples

 

10 BA assault marines with 1 melta gun vs 10 GKSS

 

At 13-24" the assault marines don't shoot so GKs liekly get 1 round of shooting

killing ~ 2 BA

 

Then the BA jump in shoot 1 melta and 7 pistols probably about 1 kill (2.33 wounds from pistol, .56 from melta) Then they assault

 

at I 4 the BA swing 24 times, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 GKs dead.

GKs swing 10 times, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds (slightly better off, cannot assume hammerhand)

 

SO it is not that the GKs are bad, but when the BA player runs other better assaulting units/priests it will change things alot.

 

The points are irrelevant when making comparisons and they actually support my point. The reason GKSS are higher points is BECAUSE they are more powerful. Thats just plain common sense. When you make a comparison, you compare their role on the gaming table as close as possible. Now note, I could of taken GK Termies and compared them as their role is Troops to GKs, but I thought that would be really unfair and that GKSS were closer in stats so as to be more fair.

 

Your example of an Assault Squad is also erroneous. If you want to compare an BA assault squad, compare it to a GK Interceptor or a Purifier squad. Those are the dedicated assault units for GK. Comparing an Assault Squad to an GKSS is akin to comparing an Assault Squad to a Tactical Squad. I guaranteed the resluts will be just like the GKSS vs Tac squad comparison. GK will all things being equal, eat a BA assault squad in both shooting and assault.

 

PS- Your assumption of 1 rnd of shooting is highly unlikely in your example anyways. Assuming starting at 24", you get a round at 24" and at 6"(BA mv 12", GK mv 6"= 6" apart). And thats not even taking into account if the GK player plays smart and moves 6" away in retrograde to maximize shooting.

[Mykra]

You're both wrong. Barring "cavalry" (and even then Thunderwolves aren't really that great), any of the Space Marine codices (Grey Knights included) can do all of those things. But the manner in which they do them will vary because that different play-style is what sets the codices apart.

 

DV8

 

I love this entire post, it should be stickied somewhere. Rational, informative, and without bias.

 

Good stuff, good stuff.