Grey Knights- not sold on them for competitive play

[Angelis Mortis]

As a BA player, I must say that for the BAs it is very difficult to compare them without taking into account the buff bubble of the Sanguinary Priest. FnP makes a difference, and although GKs get force weapons, it means that your guns are only doing 1/2 as much damage as they usually would. Furious Charge, well, is Furious Charge. That said, math hammer cannot be done in a vacuum, not only because each army has different support options. GKSS are also pretty well equipped for dealing with MEQs, but issue here is that the rest of the GK army is generally smaller.

 

 

We could further the comparison doing so, but keep in mind, GK also have buffs from characters. In the end, it still going to work out for the GK. Also keep in mind the GK have Assassins to specifically deal with ICs with army wide buffs. A Callidus pretty much will guarantee any one IC to be removed the turn she pops. A Callidus and a Vindcare together, well, then it starts to get really stupid.

 

PS- FNP makes almost no difference. The NFW did 90% of the damage in my examples. Furious charge will make a slight difference but wont carry the day. Adding more shenangins such as Psycannons, Psybolts,etc, is just going to shift it even more.

[Zhukov]

Lot of fail in this thread, caused by the fact that people try to dumb stuff down so they can do some easy comparisons. Thing is, GK's are hard to grasp as an army. All Marine armies actually play completely different, but GK's even more so... I'll use this comment to show something, but no offense to you (breng77) as the rest of your comment wasn't half-bad:

 

At 13-24" the assault marines don't shoot so GKs liekly get 1 round of shooting

killing ~ 2 BA

 

Then the BA jump in shoot 1 melta and 7 pistols probably about 1 kill (2.33 wounds from pistol, .56 from melta) Then they assault

 

at I 4 the BA swing 24 times, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 GKs dead.

GKs swing 10 times, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds (slightly better off, cannot assume hammerhand)

 

SO it is not that the GKs are bad, but when the BA player runs other better assaulting units/priests it will change things alot.

Now, you assume here that GK's shoot and that BA's can assault after that. However, they won't. Not when the GK player is good that is. And this is also why I think GK's are only competitive when played by good players, because they will play with Grey Knights and not with glorified Tactial Marines.

What's the case?

 

Grey Knights outshoot pretty much everything at the 24" range, I think few people will disagree with this.

So what do you need to do? You need to make use of that... it's that simple. You simply will need to position your units somewhere between the 19-24" range.

What happens then? You shoot those Grey Hunters/Tacticals/Terminators/Assault Marines and they will be more than 18" is away of you. What does that mean? If they move; they will be out of range, as their weapons drop to 12" range. 6+12=18", so not sufficient. If they stand still, they only have bolters (and maybe plasma guns) with 1 shot, so they get outshot by GK's as they have pretty much double the firepower. (assault 2 weapons remember, while they don't cost 2x as much)

 

For this same reason it will be relatively easy to get the charge with GK's. As the oppenent is more than 18" away, they can't assault you. In the case of Jump Packs: What are they going to do? Get somewhere between the 13-18" range so GK's can't assault them, but they can next turn if the GK's don't move? Well then GK's can move 6" backwards so the BA's are again outside of assault range, while GK's still fire. They jump within 12" to prevent that? GK's charge you...

 

Now this is how it should work in a perfect world and ingame it's not that simple of course. (multiple units, other kind of units etc etc) But still, I do believe this is why GK's will be rather competitive in the hands of good players... It also means GK's will be pretty sucky in the hands of poor players, way more sucky than a Wolves list for example; which is way easier to get a certain amount of effectiveness with. ('bad' player can still rapid fire with GH's and then receive the charge... and do rather well)

 

This is pretty much how I think GK's will (or should) work in essence, it's a lot like the 4th Water Warrior style but different. (4th edition was different regarding LoS and blocking fire lanes for example)

 

So yeah, in the end I think most competitive GK lists will resolve around a good core of GKSS's (let's say...30+) or even Terminators, with some Psyflemen in support and then the rest to taste and also depending on points total. I hope I'm right about this and if I am then you can expect me to post detailed battlereports and mabye even complete GK tacticas....

 

So in short: I think GK's will be pretty damn competitive as long as they are being played by good players. Dark Eldar comes closer to their playstyle than other Marine armies do ironicly enough. If I turn out to be wrong in the end I'll be happy to admit it of course.

 

Btw: This isn't the only way I think GK's are competitive, MSU can be done well too with GK's and Henchmen have a lot of potential too. Even Land Raider armies are an option with GK's because you aren't (as) vulnerable to deepstriking melta because of Warpquake.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

The Grey Knight codex is, in my opinion, one of the best codices made for 5th ed., if not overall. It's actually very balanced, contrary to many rumors, as anything that could be an 'I Win!' button has a drawback, such as the Crowe tax on Purifiers, people are leaving and complaining that it's weak, which is normally a good sign for a very new codex, the units are quite well costed, and you can build almost any type of army with them. Why do I feel like I've posted this about four times?

[breng77]

I agree that there are ways to mitigate the charge, shooting, etc of other armies, but the same can be said of GKS, which is all I was try to show (my example was using Jump packs, and I can see how GKs can move (in many cases (not all) to avoid the charge. I was just addressing the original post saying that X would happen in the game as far as shooting, which was far from true against other skilled players, or any mech army (which does not care that you have storm bolters. I also agree with others that looking at any unit in a vacuum is a poor idea.

 

I also keep seeing posts by people that are similar to all the posts I saw for DE (which as you said are somewhat close to GKs in some ways.) I see people posting that every Gk unit will have 2+ psycannons, S5 storm bolters, I6 PW attacks, always have hammerhand in CC. Looking at a strike squad with that kind of load out you are looking at 240-280 points per unit.

 

As to the hammerhand argument, it is good against many opponents, but against many popular builds you are more likely not to have it when it counts than you are to have it.

 

Chance of getting off an LD 9 power = 83%

Chance of getting shut down by wolves = 50% (lots of wolf players are running a rune priest), chance of having Hammer hand= 41%

Chance of getting shut down by a hood = 58% (most BA builds I see have a libby, as do many Codex marine builds, and several GK builds) chance of having hammer hand = 34.7%

Against Nids or Eldar (in many situations against nids, and pretty much always vs eldar)= 37.5%

 

So I think GK take very careful application of their abilities to be successful, and their strengths are very different from many other marine armies.

 

I also think that people saying that it is not competitive means that the codex is...balanced, much like Dark Eldar. The issue is that SWs and Guard are undercosted in many places and make very easy armies to play (not saying that there is not tactics just that builds can be made where the tactics are very straight forward.)

[jmach]

I believe the same thing that Zhukov does, same as with the old daemonhunters codex, granted I've only been playing for 15 months now but I've only played the daemonhunters and the new grey knights.

 

The smart GK players will definitely utilize their killzone to the max potential where as the bandwagon players will jump the gun and treat them like a wolves army and get whiped. Those are the players that are now thinking the GKs are not competitive as it's not just a blindly advance and win army or stand back and win army. It is a very balanced book which is a pleasant surprise. At first I thought it was going to be weak with the loss of the s6 and ws5 that I was used to, then when I heard about the force weapons and brotherhood of psykers I thought it was going to be crazy overpowered, but I'm glad to see it found a nice middle ground with a learning curve and no I WIN button list.

[Angelis Mortis]

Chance of getting off an LD 9 power = 83%

Chance of getting shut down by wolves = 50% (lots of wolf players are running a rune priest), chance of having Hammer hand= 41%

Chance of getting shut down by a hood = 58% (most BA builds I see have a libby, as do many Codex marine builds, and several GK builds) chance of having hammer hand = 34.7%

Against Nids or Eldar (in many situations against nids, and pretty much always vs eldar)= 37.5%

 

Apparently somebody missed my post about Callidus and Vindicare assassins. Callidus is all but a guaranteed 2nd turn IC removal. Coupled in a list with a Vindicare and those shenanegins wont last to be used.

[number6]

Grey Knights, much like the other Space Marines out there, are not a combat army. Any player looking to build a combat-army out of the Grey Knight book is setting themselves up to lose (especially in competitive play). Nor do they lack in firepower; the amount of Psycannons, Psy-bolt Storm Bolters, and things like Orbital Strike Relays, Psy-bolt Autocannons, etc. that they can bring is frightening, but the majority of that is mid-range firepower (24"). Thus Grey Knights need to optimize unit upgrades to keep their units streamlined yet still effective, mobile enough to bring their firepower to bear quickly, and durable enough to weather hits and focus on objectives.

 

With how expensive the individual units/models are, and how restrictive some of their options can be (the latter in a way very similar to Space Wolves), Grey Knight players will need to skip past many of the shiny toys to ensure a varied, balanced core of units that will allow them to combat any opponent. Relying on hammer units is not something Grey Knights can do.

Which is just a multi-sentence expansion of my initial definition of GKs. :tu:

 

Also, everything Zhukov said. Well said, I hasten to add.

[Leksington]

For this same reason it will be relatively easy to get the charge with GK's. As the oppenent is more than 18" away, they can't assault you. In the case of Jump Packs: What are they going to do? Get somewhere between the 13-18" range so GK's can't assault them, but they can next turn if the GK's don't move? Well then GK's can move 6" backwards so the BA's are again outside of assault range, while GK's still fire. They jump within 12" to prevent that? GK's charge you...

Easier said than done. You forget that you are outnumbered and are not running in a straight line away from 1 unit, but away from 2-3 units. You may be moving 6 inches, but you aren't getting 6 inches away from all of the units on your tail.

 

I wonder how you plan on claiming objectives when you are spending the majority of the match running away, and don't really have the speed to grab objectives in the last turns.

 

I also wonder how you are going to weather all the snarky remarks about the cowardice of your marines. ;) Counting the times a GK player claims that 'discretion is the better part of valor' could make for a great drinking game. :ph34r:

[Grimtooth]

Having seen GK play this past weekend in a tournament, I was not impressed at all.

 

Don't get me wrong, the guy did pretty well however it was more due to overwhelming clueless opponents then actually using the army's strengths to win. The people he beat were not bad players, it was just a matter of, "Duh, I don't know what this army can do!"

 

I wish I had been able to play him but wasn't in the cards this time.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

After numerous games with the Grey Knights, and the input of many of my Grey Knight playing friends, it has become apparent that the Grey Knights are not very competitive at higher levels of play. Can they compete or win? Of course, but then again so can any codex out there. The problem here is people cry broken and overpowered when they see or hear the rules of the Grey Knights, until they actually play with it enough to no longer be caught by surprise - the initial victories many people would have with their Grey Knights would be mainly because the enemy is ill-prepared for facing them as they are new, but once people catch up, the faction loses its "bling" rapidly.

 

You mean what happens after every army release these days?

 

I'm not saying they are at the bottom of the pile, but I'd say probably T2 or so, not up there with the Wolves or IG, or even arguably the BA.

 

Sorry what? How are we exactly worse than any of those armies in firepower or close-combat?

 

Problems:

HQ --> only the Librarian and Inquisitor seems to be a good option (as is Coteaz) but even then the Librarian is bogged down by Terminator Armor, which costs points and makes him a pain to transport. It would have been nicer to have just a naked simple Librarian option like what other Marine armies get. Most of the HQ choices are mostly for casual games.

 

Gee, thats a real brainteaser. Maybe take those amazing Troop Terminators as a bodyguard? Y'know, because they're shooty as well, so walking works for them (same reason you don't see Tac Termies in SM armies with transports). Or Paladins if you can afford to (they make an amazing meatshield, and are fightier too).

Inquisitors are for casual/small games, no one in their right mind would take one over a Librarian, and Grandmaster is just way too much win (with 'Grand Strategy' alone) to not take in larger games.

I don't know how you pass over Draigo (like Calgar but actually good), Crowe (ignore the character himself, Purifiers as Troops = winsauce) or the Grandmaster as 'only casual games'. They're each very useful additions to the army, not just as characters but in army effects (the latter being far more important in current 40k).

 

Elites --> There is some good stuff here, but then again:

Vindicare - people like this guy a lot, but really, he gets a maximum of six shots a game, and often less. And out of all those shots some will fail as anything short of the Hellfire or Turbo Penetrator (against vehicles) has a good chance of failing. The main reason to take him IMO is to nuke AV14 vehicles very reliably. And for some reason, people are terrified of him. He is good, but not some godlike weapon of mass destruction some make him out to be.

 

No one was saying the Vindi is a weapon of mass destruction lol. He's a precision instrument ie powerfist/Priest/Icon/Sarge removal. In terms of anti-tank, I've found he reliably causes a penetrating hit on any vehicle in the game. The problem is that you can roll terribly for damage (AP1 helps a bit) and still fail to do much (because most valuable targets have extra armour, POTMS etc to counteract lower damage results). Shield-breaker is situational but can be pretty amazing (Marine players tend to cry when you remove their storm shields or Iron Halos etc).

 

Paladins - a good anchor but nothing else. They don't hit very hard for their points (10 guys cost at least 550 points and only have 20 attacks when not charging - and you often won't get the charge unless you pay for a transport), and throwing enough S8+ weapons at them will rapidly diminish their numbers. Given the proliferation of Melta weapons they aren't impossible to kill.

 

A good anchor? I think you mean meatshield for characters. Also, they are good in combat with support (by themselves, they are kinda lackluster, and this is btw true of almost all units in our codex, not to mention other armies like BA). This is yet another reason why Librarians are so neccessary; with 'Might' and 'Hammerhand' turned on, Paladins are scary awesome (that WS5 is pretty important). Yes, we all know they die to meltas and Demolisher cannon, but what doesn't? TBH, I prefer having a unit with finesse and requiring a bit of forethought, rather than the 'lol I can't die' Stormhammer monstrosity in the Ultramarine book. Hang back and shoot with psycannon/screen your dudemanz so 'Shrouding' works better, charge when appropriate.

 

Purifiers - I think these are subject to the Sternguard bling. When Codex SM came out, many were excited to play Sternguard spam, but as it turns out not many even do that now. While they bring some good kill power to the table, they cost a lot per model. Still good though, but I'll talk about cost later on...

.

 

You clearly haven't played a game with them then. Quad psycannon in the mid-field is just flat out insane, I have opponents bitching that 'Marines shouldn't be able to shoot that well'. Forget plinking away at point-blank with a handful of combi-meltas, or being forced into 12" anyway to get 2 shots (Sternguard), on the move my Purifier squads pump out 20 shots (8 of which are psycannon), and stationary they unleash a god-like 28 (16 being psycannon). I've had a few games now where they simply shoot their targets to death and don't even get to use their shiny halberds and hammer :lol: .

 

Troops --> Terminator squads are not very good, as they cost a lot of points, don't hit very hard, and simply aren't that difficult to dislodge for their points. Enough low AP or dedicated assault units will ruin them. As for the GKSS, it eludes me why many thing these guys are awesome in combat - they aren't, and if you consider that everyone is forced to pay for their power weapons, you soon realize they aren't that cheap either as four points per model seems worth it for a force weapon until you realize that your models are really one attack each, your numbers would usually be diminished so all their power weapons go to waste, and that against anyone not in power armor or equivalent the very marginal increase in combat effectiveness isn't worth it.

 

Again mate, you are missing the point. Knights are not point n click, you have to pick what stance you'll take based on opponent. If he's better than you in close-combat, chances are thats all he does (ie his ranged firepower is quite minimal or designed to only supplement what he does in the charge ie flamers). Hence, backup and hose him down with your superior firepower. If he has better guns, charge (because the same applies in reverse).

 

I do agree that Terminators can prove lackluster unless you're taking on lone models, as their WS4 and low attack output can be disappointing. I usually find myself fielding Paladins, or in smaller games just dispensing with them entirely. They can be made to work, but they lack the wounds of a Strike or Purifier squad, while being quite meh compared to Paladins (whose WS5 makes a big difference).

 

Henchmen on the other hand are good for their points, but if you take a lot of them the army rapidly no longer resembles a Grey Knight army

 

I whole-heartedly agree. Henchmen armies are basically trying to be IG, but without the tank saturation or Russes. DCA are amazing though, worth trying out instead of Troop Terminators.

 

Fast Attack --> Interceptors have uses but cost a lot. Stormravens are interesting as they aren't as flimsy as many people might have you think: that AV12 skimmer doesn't magically disintegrate when a few guns are trailed on it but it is not very tough either, and costs a lot.

 

Interceptors are close to unusable (although not quite as fail as Purgators). They don't cut it as an assault unit, and they pay a lot to not have a Rhino or Razorback to support them.

Stormraven is a personal choice, it's by no means bad it just requires Reserve modifiers to work (as you can't start it on the table, it'll get shot down for sure). A Grandmaster or cheap Inquisitor for 'Psychic Communion' is essential.

 

 

Heavy Support --> Land Raiders cost too much, Purgation Squads are only barely worth it for the 100-point Incinerator spam unit, Dreadknights don't have many attacks for their points. The Psyfle Dread, however, is good.

 

Agreed, except about Dreadknight. Give him a greatsword and teleporter, go tank hunting (Outflanking via Grandmaster is beyond words). He also does alright vs shooty infantry, as provided they don't have power weapons he will eat them in two rounds then move on.

 

Looking at them in pieces makes the army sound alright, until you realize a dangerous trend:

Due to the high points costs of all the units, coupled with the general lack of actual attacks throughout the board, what you end up with in any game is a few bodies, each with very few attacks. This is unlike other Space Marine armies because unlike Codex Marines you do not have a reliable way of transporting your Terminators without severely gimping your model count even more (aka the Land Raider is even less affordable to the Grey Knights because we already lack bodies...and we don't have Shrike), we lack meltas/missiles (face it, the Psycannon when fired while moving on Power Armor is really just a rending Autocannon, its not a miracle gun. Rends happen on a roll of a 6 friends), we lack the ability to amass bodies like the SWs (Razorspam with Grey Hunters and Long Fangs gives you a huge model count for a Marine army, with each Marine hitting about as hard as a Grey Knight when not charging, but with meltas and missiles), and the army as a whole lacks the mobility of the BA, relying entirely on either transports (which can die), Deep Striking (which can mishap) or paying through their noses for teleporters.

 

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but the reason we're not uber-Grit like Wolves or spamming Assault Marines like BA is because we have ranged firepower that rivals that of Guard or Tau. We're balanced Marines, what Tactical Marines wish they were (instead of being glorified meatshields for the squad heavy and special). We get meltagun in certain places, just not on Knights (because if we had both that would be stupid). A proper Knight army will have roughly the same bodycount as regular Marines anyway, and Wolves often sacrifice a lot to get Grey Hunter spam into their lists.

Transporation-wise, we're golden. 'Fortitude' is worth way more than the 5 point tax we pay, and given our mid-range shooting prowess, we don't need stupid fast Rhinos anyway (BA can do that but they lose the chance to shoot if they turbo, and it's only 6" greater movement anyway, because they're not a skimmer :) ). As I said before, Stormravens are useful in the right army (Landraiders are unecessary though).

Our characters by and large are well-equipped and well-costed, and grant our army bonuses regular Marines would kill for (I'll just say it again, 'Grand Strategy' is amazing).

 

I think you're being far too pessimistic about our chances. Knights have a good balance of range and close-combat built into all our units, we don't pay the stupid prices of our old codex, and we have a whole swathe of new units and army builds to chew over. It's very early days, but I'm prepared to say we'll give Wolves, BA, IG etc a run for their money.

[Marid]

Inquisitors are for casual/small games, no one in their right mind would take one over a Librarian, and Grandmaster is just way too much win (with 'Grand Strategy' alone) to not take in larger games.

I don't know how you pass over Draigo (like Calgar but actually good), Crowe (ignore the character himself, Purifiers as Troops = winsauce) or the Grandmaster as 'only casual games'. They're each very useful additions to the army, not just as characters but in army effects (the latter being far more important in current 40k).

 

I think you are greatly underestimating Inquisitors and the Henchmen Warbands they unlock.

[Gentlemanloser]

Interceptors are close to unusable (although not quite as fail as Purgators). They don't cut it as an assault unit, and they pay a lot to not have a Rhino or Razorback to support them.

 

One small comparison i'm starting to come aorund to.

 

Sure, on 10 man Squads, this is true. Interceptors pay 60 points *not* to have a Rhino, 20 points more than Strikes with one.

 

But if you look at 5 man, 1 Psycannon squads, the Interceptors pay 30 points, while the Strikes would pay 40-50 for a Rhino/Razorback to transport them.

 

So with small squads, you can actually make a slight saving on points by taking Interceptors over Strikes+Transport.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Why do people keep comparing GK to other power armour armies? You don't see comparisons between DE or Nids to Space Wolves do you?

 

Grey Knights are NOT a normal Astartes force and can not really be compared to one, tactics and strategy are completely different. The olf rules that apply to Astartes, the "I win" buttons and tried and tested tactics do not apply. I've played SW and BA armies and know what they are capable of, their strengths and weaknesses, Grey Knighst are a totaly and radicly different approach.

 

When people say "competitive" what they mean is the ability to score easy wins with off-the-shelf army lists they have picked up from the net. We've all seen it, tourneys where the only real difference in armies is the name of the guy playing them.

 

It does annoy me a little but I think we where all braced and prpared for the influx of bandwagons and the exodus of the same. Hpefully in a month or two the forums will settle down and those of us who stick with the Knights, know how to play them and enjoy them can have our form back.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not unreasonable for people to compare GK to the other Marines.

 

We have the same stat lines, nearly identical wargear and vehicles, and do play closer to other Imperial Marines (with slight differences) than to any other army.

 

What works versus, and kills Marines, also kills Grey Knights.

 

What other Marines can take (bar Storm Shields /sigh), Grey Knights can take.

 

Nilla Marines, SW, BA and Grey Knights can all do MSU Razorback spam. With slight differences. Comparing that, isn't unreasonable at all.

 

As long as you account for all the slight deviations.

[breng77]

Apparently somebody missed my post about Callidus and Vindicare assassins. Callidus is all but a guaranteed 2nd turn IC removal. Coupled in a list with a Vindicare and those shenanegins wont last to be used.

 

And somebody missed the part where I said people are all assuming stuff like that will always happen.

 

Callidus is guaranteed a 2nd turn IC removal how exactly? If said IC is in a vehicle (which is common) the Callidus has no way of hurting the IC at all.

 

The same is true with the Vindicare. Which can take out a vehicle fairly reliably (69.7% to pen against AV 11, so about 35% of the time it will destroy said vehicle), and then the next turn shoot at said IC, assuming it does not...get into CC, embark in another vehicle, that your opponent does not kill the vindicare...., against Nids, often times more than one model will have SITW, and plenty of eldar builds run more than one Farseer (whether more than one has Runes of Warding is debatable)

 

Furthermore not every GK army will be running either of these guys, let alone both of them, this is what I am talking about when I say that people come up with answers like, '"well I'll have a Vindicare and he will kill the hood so it does not matter."

[uberschveinen]

Apparently somebody missed my post about Callidus and Vindicare assassins. Callidus is all but a guaranteed 2nd turn IC removal. Coupled in a list with a Vindicare and those shenanegins wont last to be used.

 

I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from. You get 1d6 S4 hits when she pops, which might kill a low wounds character with a bad Invulnerable, or a character with no Invulnerable. Then the Neural Shreeder is lucky to wound a character on 5+ and will often be looking at 6+. And then no charge, because Deep Strike rules, and she gets shot to buggery by small-arms fire. I can get much more than a paltry 1d6 power weapon hits for 135 points Maybe if the Poly-hits inflicted ID, and probably if she could charge on the pop, but none of those are the case. Unless there was a mistake, and I'm rather hoping there was, she's just not useful. Pity, because the other assassins got improved rather well. They all benefit a good deal from the spectacular stat-line, the Vindicaire is now a vehicle-popping beast who can also pop special single-wounds more easily, and occasionally useful to break an Invulnerable, the Eversor has better shots and Furious, which makes him okay at killing dudes and loses the now-less-relevant anti-MC deal, and the Culexus is not as good at killing Psykers but is now actually capable of surviving in the open for more than three nanoseconds. But Callidus...

 

Well, here's hoping there was a mistake.

[antique_nova]

I think (and I'm fairly certain many here will agree with me) that you are mistaking competitiveness for lack of an Instant Win button, and balance for weaknesses.

That is what i agree on. Really, what type of argument can people put against GK for not being competitive, apart from no instant win button?

 

All those people think, most anyway, is. Combos. Combos and COMBOS FOR THE COMBO GOD! - weapons combos that is. For the emperor's sake, not everything within a codex is about shooty or close combat combos for fraks sake. Units do have other factors, like buffing powers and if you take certain units you can have DEPLOYMENT combos. Weapons only weapons fuel wars, but only the mind ends wars. Wars, battles, whatever. Weapons are just tools and the tools are only as good as the user.

 

New tools take getting used to and these people just can't get 'used' to the new tools.

 

Just look at every great general, every single one of them became great, because they controlled the battlefield due to deployment - winning meaning giving the enemy a Pyrrhic victory, an unacceptable victory or actually beating the enemy.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Angelis Mortis]

Apparently somebody missed my post about Callidus and Vindicare assassins. Callidus is all but a guaranteed 2nd turn IC removal. Coupled in a list with a Vindicare and those shenanegins wont last to be used.

 

I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from. You get 1d6 S4 hits when she pops, which might kill a low wounds character with a bad Invulnerable, or a character with no Invulnerable. Then the Neural Shreeder is lucky to wound a character on 5+ and will often be looking at 6+. And then no charge, because Deep Strike rules, and she gets shot to buggery by small-arms fire. I can get much more than a paltry 1d6 power weapon hits for 135 points Maybe if the Poly-hits inflicted ID, and probably if she could charge on the pop, but none of those are the case. Unless there was a mistake, and I'm rather hoping there was, she's just not useful. Pity, because the other assassins got improved rather well. They all benefit a good deal from the spectacular stat-line, the Vindicaire is now a vehicle-popping beast who can also pop special single-wounds more easily, and occasionally useful to break an Invulnerable, the Eversor has better shots and Furious, which makes him okay at killing dudes and loses the now-less-relevant anti-MC deal, and the Culexus is not as good at killing Psykers but is now actually capable of surviving in the open for more than three nanoseconds. But Callidus...

 

Well, here's hoping there was a mistake.

 

I get the idea just from what your describing. Its AUTOMATIC 1d6 S4 AP2 hits. No dodging them, just take it. Most ICs are T4 or less, so half should wound, and most have at best 4+ invulnerable and have 3 wounds or less (a few have 4 and even fewer have 5), that is, if the Vindicare didn't remove it first (which he should of). If used properly, there is a significant chance that said IC is going to go bye bye. Proper placement of a Callidus will minimize fire at her, and by placing her in cover stealth will provide at least a +1 cover. She can also go to ground for a further +1. In woods or the like this will provide a +2 cover save. If you assault her, she is going to go first and she is going to kill (with instakill if you were foolish enough to send multi-wound models at her) several models before she hit-and-runs. So really, if you do not either get lucky with the dice and she gets unlucky, or launch overwhelming fire (which will require movement of your units if the Callidus player is smart) or an overwhelming assault at her, she isn't as easy to kill as you think. Daemonhunters sure, she was killed fairly easy, Grey Knights version, shes a bit harder. If you do decide to place overwhelming fire into her, thats not necessarily a bad thing for the GK player, as that allows a turn of advance with no or minimal return fire. And if you think you can take a turn of fire from the entire Grey Knight force without some reply, well, good luck with that. And then you still have the Vindicare to keep nailing that IC.

 

Discount them at your peril.

[Angelis Mortis]

Callidus is guaranteed a 2nd turn IC removal how exactly? If said IC is in a vehicle (which is common) the Callidus has no way of hurting the IC at all.

 

The same is true with the Vindicare. Which can take out a vehicle fairly reliably (69.7% to pen against AV 11, so about 35% of the time it will destroy said vehicle), and then the next turn shoot at said IC, assuming it does not...get into CC, embark in another vehicle, that your opponent does not kill the vindicare...., against Nids, often times more than one model will have SITW, and plenty of eldar builds run more than one Farseer (whether more than one has Runes of Warding is debatable)

 

Furthermore not every GK army will be running either of these guys, let alone both of them, this is what I am talking about when I say that people come up with answers like, '"well I'll have a Vindicare and he will kill the hood so it does not matter."

 

I am certain your not trying to claim that GK have some sort of problem popping open transports? There is plenty of options in the GK codex to do just that. Why it was mentioned is kind of baffling, as it sounds like you assume the GK player would say "Oh noes, you put your Force Commander in a Rhino, all is lost". I see you mentioned the Vindicare which is good, but he is not the be all end all of AT capability in a GK list. Take Coteaz for example. With Coteaz, you can basically field up to 6 squads of IST (Warrior Acolytes with up to 3 meltas ea squad), add a Jokaro or two for a chance to get another 12" range out of them as well as 2 lascannon shots. Then theres the Planet of the Apes list, of Coteaz and 6 squads of Jokaero (thats a lot of lascannons). Then theres Coteaz and 6 squads of Psykers (S10 AP1 pie plates are easy to spam, and servo skulls make them twice as accurate). Dreads with dual AC and Psybolt will crack open AV11 pretty much guaranteed. You can get 6 of those theoretically. Dreadknights with Daemonhammers and teleporters? Interceptors and Daemonhammers? Massed Psycannon fire (16 S7 rending shots from one squad)? Psybolts and mass SB fire? (sure thats not reliable, but when the whole list has SB and PB?) I think you get the point. Cracking open the transport is not going to be an issue.

 

I agree with you on your point that not every GK list will run these things, nor can they. Nor will they run both Assassins. But I will say that if they know they are playing a list that has nasty ICs who provide army wide bonuses they would be foolish not to take them. The fact that they can be very specifically targeted makes them worth their weight in gold.

[DV8]

Well, here's hoping there was a mistake.

 

There isn't one. In typical GW fashion, they over-nerf whatever used to be amazing-sauce in the old book, so that it becomes pretty crappy in the new one. The Callidus was the best assassin, bar none, in the Daemonhunters codex. In the current incarnation, she's not useful at all for competitive play.

 

I get the idea just from what your describing. Its AUTOMATIC 1d6 S4 AP2 hits. No dodging them, just take it. Most ICs are T4 or less, so half should wound, and most have at best 4+ invulnerable and have 3 wounds or less (a few have 4 and even fewer have 5), that is, if the Vindicare didn't remove it first (which he should of). If used properly, there is a significant chance that said IC is going to go bye bye. Proper placement of a Callidus will minimize fire at her, and by placing her in cover stealth will provide at least a +1 cover. She can also go to ground for a further +1. In woods or the like this will provide a +2 cover save. If you assault her, she is going to go first and she is going to kill (with instakill if you were foolish enough to send multi-wound models at her) several models before she hit-and-runs. So really, if you do not either get lucky with the dice and she gets unlucky, or launch overwhelming fire (which will require movement of your units if the Callidus player is smart) or an overwhelming assault at her, she isn't as easy to kill as you think. Daemonhunters sure, she was killed fairly easy, Grey Knights version, shes a bit harder. If you do decide to place overwhelming fire into her, thats not necessarily a bad thing for the GK player, as that allows a turn of advance with no or minimal return fire. And if you think you can take a turn of fire from the entire Grey Knight force without some reply, well, good luck with that. And then you still have the Vindicare to keep nailing that IC.

 

Discount them at your peril.

 

Methinks you place far too much faith in your assassins. Even with Stealth, it's still only a 3+ Cover Save and 6+ Feel No Pain. Given their expensive points costs, I'd LOVE for you to spend 300 points on two assassins, as that's 300 points not going into your army. Granted the Vindicare is pretty damned awesome, but he's also very easy to kill (I've played several games against it now and I've guaranteed it's died first turn, without expending too much firepower into him).

 

The Callidus even more-so. With 1D6, assuming averages you'll probably get 3-4 hits. Against a T4 target that's only 1.5-2 wounds, hardly reliable at killing a character. The Vindicare can help against lower-tier support characters (Librarians and the like), but assuming Cover or Invulnerable saves, you won't reliably kill a character straight up (and that's a HIGH point expenditure to ensure you possibly auto-kill a low-mid-tier character. Sure the Vindicare can attempt to remove any Invulnerables they have, but that shot needs to wound, and it's only got a 50% chance of doing so.

 

Additionally, if you Go To Ground for a 2+ cover save, absolutely. You're not Imperial Guard, so you can't pull Go To Ground + Get Back Into The Fight shenanigans. If you Go To Ground, you're useless for the next turn and I can ignore you (either redeploy my force to pull you into the open or leave you alone, if you're positioned in a place that means you have little to no impact on the game, or worry about killing you in my next turn).

 

EDIT: She may have an improved stat-line, but the loss of A Word In Your Ear and the inability to pop up and jump into combat the turn she appeared (with a 3rd edition Codex, she was the ultimate in character/special assassination as you could selectively target models in base to base, and only be hit back by models in base to base...meaning she would jump in, contact only the Power Fist or the Character, kill them, and then Hit and Run away) means she's a marginal character at best, with sub-par equipment and a rather expensive price tag.

 

 

DV8

[Angelis Mortis]

Methinks you place far too much faith in your assassins. Even with Stealth, it's still only a 3+ Cover Save and 6+ Feel No Pain. Given their expensive points costs, I'd LOVE for you to spend 300 points on two assassins, as that's 300 points not going into your army. Granted the Vindicare is pretty damned awesome, but he's also very easy to kill (I've played several games against it now and I've guaranteed it's died first turn, without expending too much firepower into him).

 

Not at all. Thats certainly not my "ace in the hole". My entire list doesn't rely on one or two models. The point I was making is used in conjunction, you stand an above average chance to take out just about any IC.

 

 

The Callidus even more-so. With 1D6, assuming averages you'll probably get 3-4 hits. Against a T4 target that's only 1.5-2 wounds, hardly reliable at killing a character. The Vindicare can help against lower-tier support characters (Librarians and the like), but assuming Cover or Invulnerable saves, you won't reliably kill a character straight up (and that's a HIGH point expenditure to ensure you possibly auto-kill a low-mid-tier character. Sure the Vindicare can attempt to remove any Invulnerables they have, but that shot needs to wound, and it's only got a 50% chance of doing so.

 

You usually have 2-3 rounds before an IC becomes a real threat, especially if its one they are trying to keep alive due to army wide rules. So thats really not an issue at all. 2-3 rounds of these two going after you is going to cause somebody to react. They must.

 

Additionally, if you Go To Ground for a 2+ cover save, absolutely. You're not Imperial Guard, so you can't pull Go To Ground + Get Back Into The Fight shenanigans. If you Go To Ground, you're useless for the next turn and I can ignore you (either redeploy my force to pull you into the open or leave you alone, if you're positioned in a place that means you have little to no impact on the game, or worry about killing you in my next turn).

 

EDIT: She may have an improved stat-line, but the loss of A Word In Your Ear and the inability to pop up and jump into combat the turn she appeared (with a 3rd edition Codex, she was the ultimate in character/special assassination as you could selectively target models in base to base, and only be hit back by models in base to base...meaning she would jump in, contact only the Power Fist or the Character, kill them, and then Hit and Run away) means she's a marginal character at best, with sub-par equipment and a rather expensive price tag.

 

I hope you ignore her. Your best bet, would be to focus on killing her, drawing forces away that should be dealing with the GK that are rapidly closing the distance. If you choose to ignore her and deal with the GK, then she can assault and kill the IC if he isn't already dead(remember, her C'tan phase sword ingores armor and instakills with no test). They are hardly a waste.

 

 

EDIT: Misplace quote function.

[DV8]

Not at all. Thats certainly not my "ace in the hole". My entire list doesn't rely on one or two models. The point I was making is used in conjunction, you stand an above average chance to take out just about any IC.

 

And my point is 300 points spent on those two assassins is an out-right waste in any competitive list. Even the Vindicare with his 145 point price tag is an iffy one, not because of his ability to kill, but because of his relative inability to avoid being killed so easily. Ditto for the Callidus. Like I said, even with a 3+ Cover Save, she's only T4 with 2 wounds. It's not difficult to kill 2 Space Marines, even if they have 6+ Feel No Pain.

 

You usually have 2-3 rounds before an IC becomes a real threat, especially if its one they are trying to keep alive due to army wide rules. So thats really not an issue at all. 2-3 rounds of these two going after you is going to cause somebody to react. They must.

 

Like what? Name me a competitive character that provides an army wide buff that would be instantly negated/removed with the killing of the character.

 

And even IF they have to react, the Vindicare will die very early (Turn 1, 2 at the latest). The Callidus should die almost the turn she appears, again because these guys aren't very durable.

 

Additionally, if you Go To Ground for a 2+ cover save, absolutely. You're not Imperial Guard, so you can't pull Go To Ground + Get Back Into The Fight shenanigans. If you Go To Ground, you're useless for the next turn and I can ignore you (either redeploy my force to pull you into the open or leave you alone, if you're positioned in a place that means you have little to no impact on the game, or worry about killing you in my next turn).

 

EDIT: She may have an improved stat-line, but the loss of A Word In Your Ear and the inability to pop up and jump into combat the turn she appeared (with a 3rd edition Codex, she was the ultimate in character/special assassination as you could selectively target models in base to base, and only be hit back by models in base to base...meaning she would jump in, contact only the Power Fist or the Character, kill them, and then Hit and Run away) means she's a marginal character at best, with sub-par equipment and a rather expensive price tag.

 

I hope you ignore her. Your best bet, would be to focus on killing her, drawing forces away that should be dealing with the GK that are rapidly closing the distance. If you choose to ignore her and deal with the GK, then she can assault and kill the IC if he isn't already dead(remember, her C'tan phase sword ingores armor and instakills with no test). They are hardly a waste.

 

See you aren't reading what I'm saying. You show up, I shoot you. T4 with a 3+ Cover Save (or 4+ Inv Save) isn't exactly durable, and with only 2 Wounds and a pitiful 6+ FNP save, she won't last under any decent amount of firepower (it wouldn't require an entire army to kill her, just a squad). If you Go To Ground for a 2+ Cover Save, yes you may be able to weather the storm for a turn, but you're also automatically pinned for your next turn. It means I can now ignore you for an entire turn as I focus on killing the rest of the Grey Knights. Basically:

 

Your Turn: Callidus appears, does her thing (I would argue not much)

My Turn: I shoot you, assume I don't kill you because you Go To Ground; I now divert the rest of my firepower to killing your army

Your Turn: Callidus Pinned

My Turn: Re-evaluate, is the Callidus still a heavy threat? Can I simply relocate and deny her the charge, thus minimizing her impact in the game? Maybe I'll have a squad rapid fire into her or something. I'll either kill you, or you can Go To Ground again.

Your Turn: Assuming she's STILL alive, you've probably had to Go To Ground and she's Pinned...again.

 

To put it into some perspective, the last time I faced a Vindicare Assassin, I took him out with a squad of Trueborn. The time before that, a single Venom. The time before that, a single Grey Hunter pack.

 

It doesn't take much to kill an Assassin, even WITH all their fancy rules (if you think about it, all of their rules are offensive in nature; the Assassins have very few rules that help them out defensively). Coupled with the Callidus' sub-par offensive abilities, she's less than stellar for the points you pay.

 

A Vindicare is situational and CAN be useful if you can deploy him properly and provide enough target saturation.

 

The Callidus is just dead weight, and the points are better spent on, say, a Psyfleman Dreadnought (which'll always be useful, and is far more durable).

 

 

DV8

[breng77]

I am certain your not trying to claim that GK have some sort of problem popping open transports? There is plenty of options in the GK codex to do just that. Why it was mentioned is kind of baffling, as it sounds like you assume the GK player would say "Oh noes, you put your Force Commander in a Rhino, all is lost". I see you mentioned the Vindicare which is good, but he is not the be all end all of AT capability in a GK list. Take Coteaz for example. With Coteaz, you can basically field up to 6 squads of IST (Warrior Acolytes with up to 3 meltas ea squad), add a Jokaro or two for a chance to get another 12" range out of them as well as 2 lascannon shots. Then theres the Planet of the Apes list, of Coteaz and 6 squads of Jokaero (thats a lot of lascannons). Then theres Coteaz and 6 squads of Psykers (S10 AP1 pie plates are easy to spam, and servo skulls make them twice as accurate). Dreads with dual AC and Psybolt will crack open AV11 pretty much guaranteed. You can get 6 of those theoretically. Dreadknights with Daemonhammers and teleporters? Interceptors and Daemonhammers? Massed Psycannon fire (16 S7 rending shots from one squad)? Psybolts and mass SB fire? (sure thats not reliable, but when the whole list has SB and PB?) I think you get the point. Cracking open the transport is not going to be an issue.

 

Can they pop Vehicles sure, can your opponent, get cover, for said vehicles or block LOS for those vehicles, sure. I'm not aruging what you suggest cannot be done just that it is not a given. Also beyond 24" range Grey Knights don't really have much to deal with Vehicles short of Jokero and Dreads. Just as you are stating that you can kill stuff, so can your opponent which means nothing is given. As to the Callidus, its D6 S4 Ap2 hits are resolved against a squad are they not, in which case why is the IC taking those hits (at least enough of them to get killed.) Also Even if they do take the hits and have no Invul save they are unlikely to die from the attack (averages 3.5 hits, 1.75 wounds against T 4 opponents.

 

I agree with you on your point that not every GK list will run these things, nor can they. Nor will they run both Assassins. But I will say that if they know they are playing a list that has nasty ICs who provide army wide bonuses they would be foolish not to take them. The fact that they can be very specifically targeted makes them worth their weight in gold.

 

Yes if you list tailor then you can always be effective, this does not work in a competitive environment where you are playing a tourney with one list. That is like knowing that you will be playing Daemons so you take Cotaez, with banishers all over the board, squads with Warp quake to cover the table and if you go first prevent the Daemons from even landing on the table. Sure it works, but that does not make it a good balanced army.

[Kay]

There is one phrase that has been blinging in my mind while i was reading the OP:

 

"Cry me a river"

 

Seriously dude, i dont waana be rude but... what did you expect? I know fluff wise GKs are the elite of the elite, but did you really expect them being so game-wise? Im a bit tired of people reducing this game to a 3-army game. I am a firm believer that you can win any game, against any opponent with any list you make. Your point about only SW and Ig being competitive seems... disappointing.

 

EVERY unit in this game has its cons, be it its points cost, or resilience or hitting power. If you want to have everything, you are playing the wrong game. I like them a lot when i read the leaked codex, but they were overpowered indeed. I played 3 games and won all of them on turn 3 max.

 

This army aint supposed to be played as SW or BA. you have SW or BA for that. This army has its own playstyle, same as every other army out there, and until you dont figure that you are going to come back here and write rants about every single codex GW pulls out.

 

There is one phrase that has been blinging in my mind while i was reading the OP:

 

"Cry me a river"

 

Seriously dude, i dont waana be rude but... what did you expect? I know fluff wise GKs are the elite of the elite, but did you really expect them being so game-wise? Im a bit tired of people reducing this game to a 3-army game. I am a firm believer that you can win any game, against any opponent with any list you make. Your point about only SW and Ig being competitive seems... disappointing.

 

EVERY unit in this game has its cons, be it its points cost, or resilience or hitting power. If you want to have everything, you are playing the wrong game. I like them a lot when i read the leaked codex, but they were overpowered indeed. I played 3 games and won all of them on turn 3 max.

 

This army aint supposed to be played as SW or BA. you have SW or BA for that. This army has its own playstyle, same as every other army out there, and until you dont figure that you are going to come back here and write rants about every single codex GW pulls out.

[antique_nova]

I am a firm believer that you can win any game, against any opponent with any list you make.

 

So would you face me with an imperial guard army with nothing but lasguns as i take a purifier spamming army with land raider redeemers? <_<