Grey Knights- not sold on them for competitive play

[Zhukov]

Easier said than done. You forget that you are outnumbered and are not running in a straight line away from 1 unit, but away from 2-3 units. You may be moving 6 inches, but you aren't getting 6 inches away from all of the units on your tail.

 

I wonder how you plan on claiming objectives when you are spending the majority of the match running away, and don't really have the speed to grab objectives in the last turns.

And that's why they aren't overpowered, I don't have to explain everything do I? <_< If you read my post I actually said something about this. (well not in the exact wording, but along the lines of 'it's not that simple in actual games')

 

I also wonder how you are going to weather all the snarky remarks about the cowardice of your marines. :P Counting the times a GK player claims that 'discretion is the better part of valor' could make for a great drinking game. :tu:

Haha, well I believe that using your GK's like they are some kind of untrained mercenaries is way more unfluffy ;)

 

Can they pop Vehicles sure, can your opponent, get cover, for said vehicles or block LOS for those vehicles, sure. I'm not aruging what you suggest cannot be done just that it is not a given. Also beyond 24" range Grey Knights don't really have much to deal with Vehicles short of Jokero and Dreads.

Err...You do realise that those Dreadnoughts and psycannons are really good at killing vehicles right? While they can't be stunned themselves right? 3 Psyflemen generate more S8 hits than 15 missile launchers.... Psycannons are pretty much rending autocannons while also mobile and they are on all your Troops. Seriously; Grey Knights might have some little problems, but de-Meching people isn't one of them lol.

 

 

In general on Assassins: More fail from people. People keep mentiniong how awesome the Vindicare is for popping Av14. Well good for you, but now take into account cover and the fact that not every army has really valuable targets. So yeah; your vindicare shoots; bounces of by a cover save (or fails to even penetrate) and now dies because he's about as hard to kill as 2 marines. Yay. Is he bad? Nah, not really. Is he really good? Hell no.

 

Callidus a sure IC kill in turn 2? Lolwut? Some random amount of S4 hits (oh noez, the horror; I can't take it!) and a flamer which wounds Ld 10 on a 6? Can't say I'm scared nor impressed. Next turn I'll bolter you to death (:

 

And for the love of god, stop using the fail argument of 'That fire doesn't go towards my other units!'. You really think you gain something when people bolter your 145 point model away? You really think that offsets the 1 or 2 GK's you maybe saved by that? Get real.

 

So yeah please people, a little more realism and objective analysis.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Wow Zhuk you are so full of awesome sauce today - must be just peachy.

 

:tu:

 

G <_<

[Zhukov]

Wow Zhuk you are so full of awesome sauce today - must be just peachy.

 

:D

 

G

I'm always full of awesome sauce, but didn't post a lot here the last year ;)

[DV8]

Wow Zhuk you are so full of awesome sauce today - must be just peachy.

 

:D

 

G ;)

I'm always full of awesome sauce, but didn't post a lot here the last year ;)

 

Just be sure you don't expend ALL of your sauce in one place... :D

 

I am a firm believer that you can win any game, against any opponent with any list you make.

 

So would you face me with an imperial guard army with nothing but lasguns as i take a purifier spamming army with land raider redeemers? :P

 

Only if we bring back the Lucky Hit rules from 3rd Edition ;) Snarkiness aside, I think contextually he means any Codex is capable of beating another one.

 

 

DV8

[breng77]

Err...You do realise that those Dreadnoughts and psycannons are really good at killing vehicles right? While they can't be stunned themselves right? 3 Psyflemen generate more S8 hits than 15 missile launchers.... Psycannons are pretty much rending autocannons while also mobile and they are on all your Troops. Seriously; Grey Knights might have some little problems, but de-Meching people isn't one of them lol.

 

I do indeed, but if you are running a bunch of them you are not taking other things. My whole point was that you are not going to have points to have everything in the codex. Dreads are great, but saying..."Well I'll pop your all your transports, and kill your psycic defense by turn 2" is ridiculous. GKs is a good codex, but too many people are falling into the, well if you take x unit, I'll have Y and that will deal with it. That is just not going to happen. At most those dreads are killing 6 vehicles per turn (if you take 6 at which point they are a majority of your army.) I also don't think they have trouble demeching people, they have problems doing it at greater than 24" unless you spam dreads, or henchman. It seems like people want to believe that your opponent is going to just stick their psychic defense or other prime targets out in the open to get shot up., in addition if your opponent has psychic defense your Dreads can get shaken/stunned as well.

 

Finally I was not arguing at all that GKs cannot pop vehicles, which seems to be what you think, I was arguing againt the assertion that assasins = death of psychic defense by turn 2.

[Resv]

I do indeed, but if you are running a bunch of them you are not taking other things. My whole point was that you are not going to have points to have everything in the codex. Dreads are great, but saying..."Well I'll pop your all your transports, and kill your psycic defense by turn 2" is ridiculous. GKs is a good codex, but too many people are falling into the, well if you take x unit, I'll have Y and that will deal with it. That is just not going to happen. At most those dreads are killing 6 vehicles per turn (if you take 6 at which point they are a majority of your army.) I also don't think they have trouble demeching people, they have problems doing it at greater than 24" unless you spam dreads, or henchman. It seems like people want to believe that your opponent is going to just stick their psychic defense or other prime targets out in the open to get shot up., in addition if your opponent has psychic defense your Dreads can get shaken/stunned as well.

 

Finally I was not arguing at all that GKs cannot pop vehicles, which seems to be what you think, I was arguing againt the assertion that assasins = death of psychic defense by turn 2.

 

I have to step in on this one. Psycannons are cheap as chips in the GK codex and you should be taking a lot of them, because honestly, what else can compete for the points? "Not taking other things" like what mate?

 

The range issue isn't that big of a deal when you start to look at the other tricks the Knights can use to close that distance. Servo Skulls are my personal favorite, but teleport shunting, outflanking, and good old fashioned rhino rush work pretty well for closing the gap. The key issue here is that loss of a transport doesn't directly cause a GK unit to lose out on shooting potential. Basically, Grey Knights can use many of the same tactics as Space Wolves do to get up close and personal. Unless your constantly playing someone who castles up in and snipes at you from across the map then the 24 inch range shouldn't be a huge limitation. Even in that particular case, you can use Conversion Beamers or Orbital Strikes to out range them! Lately I have started to enjoy taking an Orbital Relay on an IC just for the shear fun of it. You have also ignored ALL Razorbacks in your argument, which by the by make up MOST of the long range weaponry in SW forces I have played against. Yes, you don't have long fangs but I would take a Psy-Rifle Dread over them anyway.

 

Psychic Defenses are very important against GK armies but what is so funny is that the Knights don't rely on only their Psychic powers. Take Halberds for instance! It is an I6 Force Weapon all the time. Or alternatively, all of the amazing options for Grenades in the codex. These options and many more other little tricks have nothing to do with Psychic Powers. Don't forget that on the first turn of any assault that Rune Priest or Librarian is hitting at I1 too, not a place I would want to be with only two wounds and no invulnerable save.

[Grimtooth]

I question why people thing three rifledreads are the bees knees for anti-armor. Yes they are pretty great, but you are limited to the amount you take. So three rifledreads would be three tanks a turn at the best case scenario, not including cover, LOS, etc, etc.

 

Of course this also puts any DK tactics out of the picture.

[Zhukov]

I do indeed, but if you are running a bunch of them you are not taking other things.

Good point, especially because your oppenents get their units for free. Oh no wait, they don't :P

 

My whole point was that you are not going to have points to have everything in the codex. Dreads are great, but saying..."Well I'll pop your all your transports, and kill your psycic defense by turn 2" is ridiculous.

That is indeed a bit ridicilous, but it's not needed either. Psychic defense isn't as much of a problem as people would think. GK's don't pay that much for their psychic abilities while they got build-in psychic defense themselves too. At least, I don't rely on my psychic powers as a GK player.

 

That is just not going to happen. At most those dreads are killing 6 vehicles per turn (if you take 6 at which point they are a majority of your army.) I also don't think they have trouble demeching people, they have problems doing it at greater than 24" unless you spam dreads, or henchman. It seems like people want to believe that your opponent is going to just stick their psychic defense or other prime targets out in the open to get shot up., in addition if your opponent has psychic defense your Dreads can get shaken/stunned as well.

Newsflash: You don't need to kill 6 vehicles a turn. Being able to damage 3 or 4 reliably is generally speaking enough at the 1750 mark. You can get away with even less, depending on what your list aims to do. (or how it works) Lists which works around the concept of a lot of GK's into midfield can get away with only 2 or 3 Dreads (or even less in special builds), really.

 

Psychic defense to counter Dreads? No way, Hoods have 24" range... Eldar gets owned by GK's, even with their awesome psychic defense. As a Mechdar player I can tell you that I don't want to face Psyflemen and loads of squads with mobile 30" range autocannons.

 

Finally I was not arguing at all that GKs cannot pop vehicles, which seems to be what you think, I was arguing againt the assertion that assasins = death of psychic defense by turn 2.

Hmm...but that quote I replied to was yours wasn't it? ^^ In any case: I agree with this; assassins are pisspoor at removing psychic defense. If you plan on doing it Stormravens are best for it by far. (but even those have problems)

 

Thing is: People should understand that Pyshic defense doesn't make GK's incapable; maybe bad builds... but not good builds. So to make it clear to GK players: Do not rely on psychic powers to carry you, you'll fail miserably in some games.

[KnowThyEnemy]

three psyrifle dreads are a great counter to all those chimera and razor spam lists out there, leaving your psycannons (plan on having 16 in my 2k) to take out any beefy armour (13 14). DK, while fun and very entertaining given the right support in the list, just wont get it done when it comes to AT. sure you can shunt and get close and that 12" move comes in handy for closing the distance, but by closing the distance you put yourself at risk to those plasmas and meltas. thats going to severly limit its life and usefullness to an army that can ill afford big point sinks. id rather stay back and pop me some tanks from a safe distance :).

[breng77]

I have to step in on this one. Psycannons are cheap as chips in the GK codex and you should be taking a lot of them, because honestly, what else can compete for the points? "Not taking other things" like what mate?

Psycannons are not really all that cheap, because the GKs themselves are not cheap. Say you are running at 1500 points, if you take 3 psyfleman dreads, that is 405 points. Next you want to take an HQ probably between 150-200 points, so now you are down to under 1k points (895-955 points). Well now you need troops, which are minimum 200 points for 2 squads (220 if you want psycannons, 300 if you want Rhinos). So if you want 2 5 man strike squads with Rhinos and 1 psycannon each you are now down to 595-655 points, and you have 5 Vehicles and 11 infantry in the list. Which then you are going to want to expand. People seem to think that I am saying that GKs are bad, but I'm just saying you cannot take everything in the book without giving something up due to points costing. I have run GKs fairly successfully, and think that they are a good army. But every argument on here seems to assume either a.) Your opponent is an idiot, b.) you will have every item/advantage. I say that psychic defense may hurt the auto assumption of Hammer hand in close combat, well "they'll kill it with an assasin turn 2." well It will be in a vehicle, "well my dreads will kill the vehicle turn 1", but your assasin might be dead "no he will never die"

 

I agree psycannons are good, and Gks can get a lot of them, they also have ways to get into 24" range, but even the above answer

Servo Skulls are my personal favorite, but teleport shunting, outflanking, and good old fashioned rhino rush work pretty well for closing the gap.

Even in that particular case, you can use Conversion Beamers or Orbital Strikes to out range them! Lately I have started to enjoy taking an Orbital Relay on an IC just for the shear fun of it. You have also ignored ALL Razorbacks in your argument, which by the by make up MOST of the long range weaponry in SW forces I have played against. Yes, you don't have long fangs but I would take a Psy-Rifle Dread over them anyway.

Assumes having at least a number of different options in you list. While you don't claim all of them, which ever you do choose cost points. Oh if they are out of range you'll use a converion beamer or an orbital strike. Not every list has these. You are right i did not think of Razorbacks, mostly because GKs don't do RB spam very well (IMO)

[breng77]

Hmm...but that quote I replied to was yours wasn't it? ^^ In any case: I agree with this; assassins are pisspoor at removing psychic defense. If you plan on doing it Stormravens are best for it by far. (but even those have problems)

 

Thing is: People should understand that Pyshic defense doesn't make GK's incapable; maybe bad builds... but not good builds. So to make it clear to GK players: Do not rely on psychic powers to carry you, you'll fail miserably in some games.

 

In which I said GKs could pop vehicles, using dreads for that matter which you seem to have ignored :) , just that most of their shooting is at 24" range. I also agree that psychic defense does not negate GKs in anyway, only that people need to stop assuming in every example that grey knights will have S5+ power weapon attacks in close combat. Even in the absence of psychic defense assuming this can get you into deep trouble. Grey Knights in generall are better trying to stay at 24" range and shoot (IMO)

[Zhukov]

Another pro-tip for people: Don't take a 150+ point GK character in a 1500 points list.

 

n which I said GKs could pop vehicles, using dreads for that matter which you seem to have ignored , just that most of their shooting is at 24" range.

Yes, but with that last bit you implied (and still imply lol) that, that is a problem. And that's what I'm arguing against: It's not, GK's don't need more long range firepower besides Dreads for most builds...

 

The rest of that particular comment wasn't meant for you actually, but was meant for several people at once; I'll edit it to make that more clear. (although I guess you did realise this already)

 

Well 1 more reply to a bit of you then (which again shouldn't be taken as offense, you at least give opinions with a thought behind it):

 

if you take 3 psyfleman dreads, that is 405 points. Next you want to take an HQ probably between 150-200 points, so now you are down to under 1k points (895-955 points). Well now you need troops, which are minimum 200 points for 2 squads (220 if you want psycannons, 300 if you want Rhinos). So if you want 2 5 man strike squads with Rhinos and 1 psycannon each you are now down to 595-655 points, and you have 5 Vehicles and 11 infantry in the list. Which then you are going to want to expand.

 

You take 2 Psyfleman. That's 270. You take 1 HQ, that's 80 points. That's 350 points, 1150 left for troops. Shocking isn't it? ^^ Let's finish a list now we're at it: 1 termie squad, as I hate henchman and we want a place for our HQ (some I6 halberds don't hurt either :) ), that's 225 points. Actually, why not taking another Termie squad + the same HQ? Multiples are good aren't they? That's 305.

We're at 880 now and have 10 scoring termies, 4 relentless psycannons and 2 excellent long range S8 platforms. Let's try to add some more vehicles. 5 man GKSS in Razors will do. We'll take 3, that's another 480. 140 points left? Okay I'll bite, another Psyfleman.

 

1500 list:

Inquisitor; psycannon, skull 83

Inquisitor; psycannon 80

5 Terminators; psycannon 225

5 Terminators; psycannon 225

5 GKSS; psycannon, psyback 160

5 GKSS; psycannon, psyback 160

5 GKSS; psycannon, psyback 160

1 Psyfleman 135

1 Psyfleman 135

1 Psyfleman 135

Total: 1498.

 

It's not that hard, honestly.

[breng77]

SO you are just running Inquisitors at low points then?

 

Most lists I see (other than Cotaez) are running Crow, a Libby, or a GM

[Kay]

I am a firm believer that you can win any game, against any opponent with any list you make.

 

So would you face me with an imperial guard army with nothing but lasguns as i take a purifier spamming army with land raider redeemers? :)

 

Only if we bring back the Lucky Hit rules from 3rd Edition ;) Snarkiness aside, I think contextually he means any Codex is capable of beating another one.

 

 

DV8

 

Pretty much. What i meant is that any list not made by a 10 year old kiddo, any list made to actually give the other opponent a challenge, can win. I have won with a C:SM All terminator list against the typical 2x lash 3x3 oblits. I have won with Crusader-powered all scout lists against eldars and against tyranids, no matter what, i tried a footslogging eldar list and, while i didnt win, i was close to... get a match xD. I play ALL CAV chaos in fantasy. I have never let the "metagaming" rule my world, and what i will never never never do, is play mi GKs as Coteaz monkeys of doom, Coteaz henchmen spam or Razorback Crowe lists. I just dont fit me.

 

Yes, you guessed right. I play Draigowing ;) (and it works!)

[Zhukov]

SO you are just running Inquisitors at low points then?

 

Most lists I see (other than Cotaez) are running Crow, a Libby, or a GM

Yes, I would. Updated my reply with a sample list as of course I have actual suggestions about how to do things. (I don't just point out what's bad :) )

[KnowThyEnemy]

Crowe

 

Vindicare

 

Purifiers x 10 - 3 Psycannons, Rhino

Purifiers x 10 - 3 Psycannons, Rhino

Purifiers x 5 - 2 Psycannons, Rhino

 

Dreadnought - 2 x twin autocannons, Psybolts

Dreadnought - 2 x twin autocannons, Psybolts

Dreadnought - 2 x twin autocannons, Psybolts

 

1500

 

i mean honestly, what more is needed? yes, 26 infantry models, but 18 of those put out 2 S4 shots each and 8 put out between 16 and 32 (!) S7 rending shots. vinidcare to pick on beefy armour or special targets, dreads to pop transports. if you feel the vindicare or the 3rd dread is overkill, drop him for more purifiers and a couple halberds/extra psycannons, such as:

 

Crowe

 

Purifiers x 10 - 3 Psycannons, Rhino

Purifiers x 10 - 3 Psycannons, Rhino

Purifiers x 10 - 4 Psycannons, Hammer, Rhino

 

Dreadnought - 2 x twin autocannons, Psybolts

Dreadnought - 2 x twin autocannons, Psybolts

Dreadnought - 2 x twin autocannons, Psybolts

 

1500

 

target saturation is high, so is their effectiveness. purifiers shoot the choppy fellas and chop the shooty fellas with the best of them. those dreads lay down TONS of fire and crowe can easily hide by an opjective or highjack an empty rhino.

[Zhukov]

Crowe lists are pretty horrible for 1500 points, you're playing with 1350 points basicly... Purifiers aren't thát awesome tbfh (to make up for Crowe), far from it actually. I wrote something on them here:

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/04/...ey-knights.html

 

Although those Crowe lists you made don't look awefull, you simply lack redundancy :) (not your fault, Crowe his lol)

[jmach]

I find myself playing with my GKs much like I did in the old codex, dancing them around in a range dropping shots on units then moving in when the scale even slightly tips into my favor. I'm also prone to forgetting about some of the psychic abilities they get outside of the force weapons and the aegis, much like all they had in the old codex, as well as the cleansing flame from purifiers when I run them but hammerhand doesn't really get used outside of the unit I have the grand master attached to and that unit usually has a banner provided there's at least 7 in the squad, 8 with the grand master himself even though he doesn't get the autosucceed bonus from banner due to using his power but gets the +1 attack.

 

Breaking the opponents psychic defense isn't priority 1, it definitely helps don't get me wrong, but there are other more important things like cracking the transports of hammer units, taking out units of heavy weapons, popping vehicles that launch instant death templates, basically the more immediate threats that will do massive damage to your small elite army.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I am planning to most likely run two vens. There was a good article on BoLS this week how to convert the dread.

 

G :lol:

 

 

 

I question why people thing three rifledreads are the bees knees for anti-armor. Yes they are pretty great, but you are limited to the amount you take. So three rifledreads would be three tanks a turn at the best case scenario, not including cover, LOS, etc, etc.

 

Of course this also puts any DK tactics out of the picture.

[Spacefrisian]

A codex that only sees 1 type of list by most players isnt a real winner if you ask me. That type of list allows for very quick adeptation.

[breng77]

Yes, but with that last bit you implied (and still imply lol) that, that is a problem. And that's what I'm arguing against: It's not, GK's don't need more long range firepower besides Dreads for most builds...

 

It is only a problem if you are trying to turn 2 assasinate independent characters, which is where my argument was pointed. I think your 1500 list is pretty good, I am personally not fond of the GK termies but that is mostly because Deathwing is my main army, and I don't really feel like playing a similar army with GKs. I agree with Crowe at 1500 not being all that worth it, If I wanted to take more purifiers I would probably pay the 25 extra points for the GM at lower points, and use him to make them scoring in objective missions.

[Brother Knight]

IMHO I think GK haven't changed in their play style nor have received an InstaWin button. They simply have just received new toys to beat the faces of the foes of the Emperor into mush ;) We're still the mid range controlling army that we all loved before just with some added oomph in cc due to everyone having power (force) weapons albeit with a lack of WS and an attack on basic GKSSs. However take a HQ like Crowe and get your old friends back, with a nifty psy power to boot :lol: Just because the new 'dex is laid out differently with some minor changes and a little bit more diversity (with some debate about the viability of these new diversity adding units) doesn't mean we change our play style, as this is at the core of the army and should never ever be changed :lol:

 

If you still haven't grasped how to play the Emperor's finest here's a link to the best GK tutorial I have seen ever. Fact.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=101214

[Zhukov]

It is only a problem if you are trying to turn 2 assasinate independent characters, which is where my argument was pointed.

Allright, then it is indeed a problem and then we agree I guess. Meh, no funsies when we agree ;)

 

I think your 1500 list is pretty good, I am personally not fond of the GK termies but that is mostly because Deathwing is my main army, and I don't really feel like playing a similar army with GKs.

Fair enough, can't argue about taste unfortunately haha.

 

I agree with Crowe at 1500 not being all that worth it, If I wanted to take more purifiers I would probably pay the 25 extra points for the GM at lower points, and use him to make them scoring in objective missions.

Disagree, Grand Master is too expensive to use mainly for scoring. He doesn't bring enough himself to justify that. (nothing turns into complete ownage when they score...)

In the end you'll see people take Grand Masters for his tactical flexibility, which can only truly be achieved when you never really need the scoring. Then you actually use his Strategy in the way which makes your army perform more effienctly/powerfull. (which might be making something scoring once and a while, but that should be an exception rather than the rule)

 

I do use a Grand Master myself too btw, but not in 1500 points. It's not that his abilities aren't awesome in 1500 (they are ofc, nothing changes here), but the list will be lacking. Usually just in units/redundancy/firepower.

[breng77]

I agree, Mostly though if you want to take purifiers, and minimal strike squads at 1500 points I would say the GM would tend to be better as he adds the flexibility that you mentioned (unlike crowe, who is only decent in select situations). You can use him to make units scoring if you need to (multiple objective missions mostly), and in other missions he can do other things. Not saying he is a gread buy at 1500 points, just that he is probably a better buy than Crowe. I think you are right though at 1500 points Inquisitors are probably the best buy (or Coteaz if you want the henchman).

[Brother Valerius]

Crowe lists are pretty horrible for 1500 points, you're playing with 1350 points basicly... Purifiers aren't thát awesome tbfh (to make up for Crowe), far from it actually. I wrote something on them here:

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/04/...ey-knights.html

 

Although those Crowe lists you made don't look awefull, you simply lack redundancy ;) (not your fault, Crowe his lol)

 

Maybe he's sub-optimal, but that isn't the same as completely useless. Saying "you're playing with 1350 points" is VASTLY overstating the issue. Not that the idea of a Crowe list being too expensive for 1500 points isn't valid, but your reason that you used to back it up is completely false.