Grey Knights- not sold on them for competitive play

[Zhukov]

Maybe he's sub-optimal, but that isn't the same as completely useless. Saying "you're playing with 1350 points" is VASTLY overstating the issue. Not that the idea of a Crowe list being too expensive for 1500 points isn't valid, but your reason that you used to back it up is completely false.

I'm afraid it's closer to the truth then you might think actually. But go ahead, give arguments why you think Crowe is in ALL your games much more than a single guy who might do nothing, or something you don't need, or catches 1 lasscannon and then dies.

 

But indeed, 1350 might be slightly exegerating. Let's make it 1400 ;) Although...he's a kill-points too... Now i'm beginning to doubt again lol.

[breng77]

The only time I have really ever though Crowe would have been nice was when playing against fateweaver, as it would be fun to jump on him, die and hopefully bring him with me. But yeah, for the most part he is pretty bad. I mean I can find uses for him, but it is just that, spending points, and effort setting him up to succeed at things that others can do just as well or better.

[KnowThyEnemy]

i love the crowe tax mentality of this forum and i get it, i honestly do. Your implication that hes worthless is pretty funny though.

 

1 lascannon shot takes him about right? why pray tell are you placing your "useless" hq out there in the open to be shot at? i guess i just use him differently (see: objective denial, reserve strike, transport shielding/hopping). to each his own, i still say hes worth it for what he lets you do with purifiers. and to have a grandmaster in 1500 and include purifiers, youll lose a lot of the bang of those lists who just use crowe. and 1 less lascannon hitting my rhinos or dreads is great IMO. might not be good for kill points granted, but 66% of the time thats not an issue.

 

and isnt redundancy the duplication of units to increase the odds of the enemy having to split fire or concentrate on 1 at a time? i.e. 3 identical dreads and 3 (basically) identical purifier squads? id say thats pretty redundant :)

[Angelis Mortis]

Like what? Name me a competitive character that provides an army wide buff that would be instantly negated/removed with the killing of the character.

 

DV8

 

Mareneus Calgar - God of War buff

Space Marine Captains- Rites of Battle

Tigurius- Gift of Prescience

Pedro Cantor- Inspiring Presence

Tyranids- Anything with synapse.

Sanguinary Priests- Blood Chalice buff

Corbulo- Red Grail

GKBC or GKDM- Psychic Communion

 

This is just an off the top of my head thing. The list is quite extensive actually in the number of ICs that provide army wide or buffs within a radius that would cease to be as soon as they die. I'm kind of surprised you didn't think there were any.

[Angelis Mortis]

i love the crowe tax mentality of this forum and i get it, i honestly do. Your implication that hes worthless is pretty funny though.

 

1 lascannon shot takes him about right? why pray tell are you placing your "useless" hq out there in the open to be shot at? i guess i just use him differently (see: objective denial, reserve strike, transport shielding/hopping). to each his own, i still say hes worth it for what he lets you do with purifiers. and to have a grandmaster in 1500 and include purifiers, youll lose a lot of the bang of those lists who just use crowe. and 1 less lascannon hitting my rhinos or dreads is great IMO. might not be good for kill points granted, but 66% of the time thats not an issue.

 

and isnt redundancy the duplication of units to increase the odds of the enemy having to split fire or concentrate on 1 at a time? i.e. 3 identical dreads and 3 (basically) identical purifier squads? id say thats pretty redundant :)

 

I think he's worth it even if its just to charge him into a giant mob (20+). Cleansing flame can easily earn his points back that way. Charge a squad of Purifiers into the same mob and they will quickly disappear.

[Zhukov]

i love the crowe tax mentality of this forum and i get it, i honestly do. Your implication that hes worthless is pretty funny though.

 

1 lascannon shot takes him about right? why pray tell are you placing your "useless" hq out there in the open to be shot at? i guess i just use him differently (see: objective denial, reserve strike, transport shielding/hopping). to each his own, i still say hes worth it for what he lets you do with purifiers. and to have a grandmaster in 1500 and include purifiers, youll lose a lot of the bang of those lists who just use crowe. and 1 less lascannon hitting my rhinos or dreads is great IMO. might not be good for kill points granted, but 66% of the time thats not an issue.

You shouldn't take it literally. I'm obviously not implying that he will die every game to 1 lasscannon shot. That's not how it works. I really need to explain everything don't I?

 

In very short (if you need further explaination, feel free to ask and I'll give it sooner or later) the problem is that you pay points for it. You pay points for something which might have very limited usefullness in quite some games. But everything can get shot down right? Yes, but unlike other things, Crowe can't even *curse word here* present himself as a threat which needs to be dealed with from the start!

 

Super simplistic example (don't take it literally again or I'll kill you :P ):

-I see both Crowe and a rhino in your deployement zone. Hmm...now where do I shoot at? Hint: Not at Crowe ;)

-I see a Psyfleman and a rhino in your deployement zone. Hmm...now where do I shoot at? Hint: Depends!

 

Crowe is a liability. Another tip: Often when you try to think really hard when a certain unit is worth it overall, it's often not. And no, skill hasn't much to do with this either. It's the opportunity cost: You could have bought something else for the points you invested into Crowe. Crowe is a bad wildcard.

 

Do you really think I don't know how to get some effectiveness out of him? You might not remember it, but I was actually just like you when the codex just arrived: Mocking people for their lack of imagination and saying you can make Crowe work pretty well. But I kept analysing further and realised I never ever want him in a competitive list. (well at least not for 1500, 2000 he's becoming less of a burden)

 

But hey if you don't believe me, that's allright, we'll see how it turns out after some time ;)

 

and isnt redundancy the duplication of units to increase the odds of the enemy having to split fire or concentrate on 1 at a time? i.e. 3 identical dreads and 3 (basically) identical purifier squads? id say thats pretty redundant :)

When that's all there is? Not really, that's not redundancy. Redundancy means being able to win games even when dice are bad for a turn (or even two), for example failing your first 4 out of 5 armour saves. Your list can't handle that kind of things; it completely folds. Redudancy means that you can afford it when not all of your units did what you took them for. Your list can't afford that.

[Brother Valerius]

Maybe he's sub-optimal, but that isn't the same as completely useless. Saying "you're playing with 1350 points" is VASTLY overstating the issue. Not that the idea of a Crowe list being too expensive for 1500 points isn't valid, but your reason that you used to back it up is completely false.

I'm afraid it's closer to the truth then you might think actually. But go ahead, give arguments why you think Crowe is in ALL your games much more than a single guy who might do nothing, or something you don't need, or catches 1 lasscannon and then dies.

 

But indeed, 1350 might be slightly exegerating. Let's make it 1400 :) Although...he's a kill-points too... Now i'm beginning to doubt again lol.

 

That's ridiculous. In any game, any unit might do nothing or be un-needed. That's just part of the game. Many HQs will die when hit by a lascannon (most, in fact). None of your arguments have anything to do with Crowe.

 

A substantive argument would be highlighting how Crowe's rules mean you have to be careful how you use him, or how it's rare to need to take >3 purifiers, or how you probably won't need to free up all 3 elite slots. Or how he simply isn't worth the 150 points you pay for him. However, at the end of the day, he is a unit on the table and you aren't paying 150 points for nothing (contrary to your claim). I have issues with the concept of the "Crowe tax" as it is, but elevating this mentality to the level that he constitutes a black hole for points is sheer insanity. The moment Crowe does something useful (quite possible with good generalship), your claim is empty.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Zhuk it is most awesome that you go into full depth of detail so we can all follow you every step of the way. :P Thanks !

 

G :)

[Zhukov]

Zhuk it is most awesome that you go into full depth of detail so we can all follow you every step of the way. Thanks !

Good to hear and that is my goal. I'm obviously not discussing just to be right, I hope myself and others actually gain something with it :)

 

ulous. In any game, any unit might do nothing or be un-needed. That's just part of the game.

Yes, but they are actually a threat for the oppenent and don't require help like a helpless baby. Crowe requires specific oppenents or at least somebody else his rhino (which can be killed too ofc) to be even a threat. Even then he's not hard to deal with.

 

Many HQs will die when hit by a lascannon (most, in fact). None of your arguments have anything to do with Crowe.

I tend to put my HQ's in squads, try it out; works pretty well for keeping them alive while also doing stuff regurarly.

 

A substantive argument would be highlighting how Crowe's rules mean you have to be careful how you use him, or how it's rare to need to take >3 purifiers, or how you probably won't need to free up all 3 elite slots. Or how he simply isn't worth the 150 points you pay for him.

So you admit he isn't worth 150 points? I think he's not even worth 75 points. How can I be completely wrong then? Confuses me, explain please.

 

However, at the end of the day, he is a unit on the table and you aren't paying 150 points for nothing (contrary to your claim).

Not nothing (well sometimes nearly nothing actually...), but close enough to nothing to call it nothing.

 

The moment Crowe does something useful (quite possible with good generalship), your claim is empty.

False. We're talking about competitive play here, not some friendly games with rainbow armies where it is allright that you lose some games because Crowe again did nothing worthwhile while you spend 150 points on him.

[spartan249]

That's ridiculous. In any game, any unit might do nothing or be un-needed. That's just part of the game. Many HQs will die when hit by a lascannon (most, in fact). None of your arguments have anything to do with Crowe.

 

A substantive argument would be highlighting how Crowe's rules mean you have to be careful how you use him, or how it's rare to need to take >3 purifiers, or how you probably won't need to free up all 3 elite slots. Or how he simply isn't worth the 150 points you pay for him. However, at the end of the day, he is a unit on the table and you aren't paying 150 points for nothing (contrary to your claim). I have issues with the concept of the "Crowe tax" as it is, but elevating this mentality to the level that he constitutes a black hole for points is sheer insanity. The moment Crowe does something useful (quite possible with good generalship), your claim is empty.

 

Can you not read? Zhukov is saying that Crowe is not efficient and reliable enough to use in a competitive environment, one in which every point spent must be as powerful and effective as possible. There's no doubt that he might show a glimmer of usefulness in the right circumstances, but it's more often then not that the circumstances arise from mistakes made by the opponent.

 

His claim is only made empty when someone finds a way to make Crowe contribute meaningfully to every scenario and situation with as much power as other point expenditures would. I have not found a way to do so yet, as other units do his job infinitely better, and neither has Zhukov.

 

[edit: Ninja'd D:]

[DV8]

Like what? Name me a competitive character that provides an army wide buff that would be instantly negated/removed with the killing of the character.

 

DV8

 

Mareneus Calgar - God of War buff

Space Marine Captains- Rites of Battle

Tigurius- Gift of Prescience

Pedro Cantor- Inspiring Presence

Tyranids- Anything with synapse.

Sanguinary Priests- Blood Chalice buff

Corbulo- Red Grail

GKBC or GKDM- Psychic Communion

 

This is just an off the top of my head thing. The list is quite extensive actually in the number of ICs that provide army wide or buffs within a radius that would cease to be as soon as they die. I'm kind of surprised you didn't think there were any.

 

Touche, but really the only thing you could reliably pop off would be Sanguinary Priests (that includes Corbulo), and that would require the Vindicare. In all other instances, even IF said units were included in a competitive list (re: Calgar or Tigerius) a Callidus would simply bounce off (shooting wise). A smart player would never even let a Callidus make combat. A Vindicare would also require many turns to successfully kill them.

 

On that note, I was under the impression Calgar's God of War buff was a Combat Tactic and would remain even if he was removed? T'otherwse I've been cheated.. :P

 

Bottom line, Callidus = useless, Vindicare = situational.

 

 

DV8

[Brother Valerius]

That's ridiculous. In any game, any unit might do nothing or be un-needed. That's just part of the game. Many HQs will die when hit by a lascannon (most, in fact). None of your arguments have anything to do with Crowe.

 

A substantive argument would be highlighting how Crowe's rules mean you have to be careful how you use him, or how it's rare to need to take >3 purifiers, or how you probably won't need to free up all 3 elite slots. Or how he simply isn't worth the 150 points you pay for him. However, at the end of the day, he is a unit on the table and you aren't paying 150 points for nothing (contrary to your claim). I have issues with the concept of the "Crowe tax" as it is, but elevating this mentality to the level that he constitutes a black hole for points is sheer insanity. The moment Crowe does something useful (quite possible with good generalship), your claim is empty.

 

Can you not read? Zhukov is saying that Crowe is not efficient and reliable enough to use in a competitive environment, one in which every point spent must be as powerful and effective as possible. There's no doubt that he might show a glimmer of usefulness in the right circumstances, but it's more often then not that the circumstances arise from mistakes made by the opponent.

 

His claim is only made empty when someone finds a way to make Crowe contribute meaningfully to every scenario and situation with as much power as other point expenditures would. I have not found a way to do so yet, as other units do his job infinitely better, and neither has Zhukov.

 

[edit: Ninja'd D:]

 

No. His claim is that Crowe is COMPLETELY useless (which is the only way that it can be true to say that playing Crowe at 1500 points is really playing at 1350 points). As soon as Crowe does one useful thing (which can be done), that claim is shot.

 

I don't have a problem with saying Crowe is bad for competitive play. I have a problem with this ridiculous, completely overstated claim of saying that using Crowe is like running 150 less points.

[Gentlemanloser]

The arguement is that in competitive play, Crowe is compeltely and utterly useless.

 

Which he is.

 

If he does anything, then you're playing an opponent that isn't really worth your time playing in a tourny. :P

[Zhukov]

(@Valerius) Oh darn, somebody tries to catch me on the fact that my choice of words might not be 100% correct. Honestly, does that matter when it is obvious what I mean? When I even replied to that statement and said it was slightly overeggerating? Honestly, I don't think I deserve that, but if you think I need to be punished for that bring out the whip Sir.

[Gentlemanloser]

For my 4th, or maybe 5th, wedding annivesary (we've been following the traditional gift list), it turned out to be Leather.

 

So I bought my wife a Leather whip from Ann Summers.

 

She loved it! Didn't use it in quite the way I expected. Used to whip me if I didn't tidy up, or do the dishes. That sort of thing. :P

[the jeske]

crows works perfectly fine at 1750 . at 1500 it is not that he is bad or that the puri build doesnt work , the problem is that there is not enough shots and units to reliably down mecha and horde armies [like 50/50 sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt]. That is what I think Z means. And this is what makes him "bad" or not viable . The chara in itself even as a tax to get puris works fine , it is the build that at 1500 doesnt work as good as it does at 1750 or 1850.

 

But when you look at him and the build from a game play point of view . From how old water warrior worked [which was more or less a shotya rmy too] or NM builds[which is what I played] . The build works fine and as crow not being a treat , he is probably one of those few hth only charas that I would deep strike [well maybe not against mecha eldar , but most other builds will divert fire power to kill him or assault him , so more offten then not it is a win/win situation] .

[Zhukov]

For my 4th, or maybe 5th, wedding annivesary (we've been following the traditional gift list), it turned out to be Leather.

 

So I bought my wife a Leather whip from Ann Summers.

 

She loved it! Didn't use it in quite the way I expected. Used to whip me if I didn't tidy up, or do the dishes. That sort of thing. :D

Hahaha :P

 

 

crows works perfectly fine at 1750 . at 1500 it is not that he is bad or that the puri build doesnt work , the problem is that there is not enough shots and units to reliably down mecha and horde armies [like 50/50 sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt]. That is what I think Z means. And this is what makes him "bad" or not viable . The chara in itself even as a tax to get puris works fine , it is the build that at 1500 doesnt work as good as it does at 1750 or 1850.

Well yes, as a tax he isn't worth it; because the build doesn't work indeed at 1500. Then I went on to analyse why he is of very little worth as a character too. I don't believe Purifier builds are that good at 1750 either though... At 2000 it gets interesting.

 

But when you look at him and the build from a game play point of view . From how old water warrior worked [which was more or less a shotya rmy too] or NM builds[which is what I played] .

Oh yes sure, it's a beautiful build from a gameplay point of view; but builds without Crowe can do the same (and better imo)

 

The build works fine and as crow not being a treat , he is probably one of those few hth only charas that I would deep strike [well maybe not against mecha eldar , but most other builds will divert fire power to kill him or assault him , so more offten then not it is a win/win situation] .

I'm not entirely sure if you mean you wished you could deepstrike him or that you think you can deepstrike...in any case you can't. Which is pitty; I would have liked him MUCH more if you could deepstrike him!

[krewl]

(@Valerius) Oh darn, somebody tries to catch me on the fact that my choice of words might not be 100% correct. Honestly, does that matter when it is obvious what I mean? When I even replied to that statement and said it was slightly overeggerating? Honestly, I don't think I deserve that, but if you think I need to be punished for that bring out the whip Sir.

Whipes Zjoekov into submission... Go wash the dishes with Crowe so that he may be usefull...

 

In short after reading this entire topic, I feel I must add that GK are competitive.

I and several others around me on sites I frequent have made several lists that would work very well. And the fact that many include psyfledreads is not a sigh of people being unoriginal, but just of psyfledreads being very good. As discussion won't do to convince the internet I will just build an army, play with it and stomp people. Sometimes I think that's the only way to " prove" anything when discussion fails.

[the jeske]

I'm not entirely sure if you mean you wished you could deepstrike him or that you think you can deepstrike...in any case you can't. Which is pitty; I would have liked him MUCH more if you could deepstrike him!

yeah kind of a ate the if there.

 

Dont know about the 1750 not being viable . I play the razorback version and it works nice . Sure if I fave an av14 I realy dont have much counter for it[the rifle man and they work only on +6 and the vindicar .which kind of a is the first thing to die and I cant fit a techmarine in to the list without droping the number of shots per turn too much[ But maybe it is just me and the fact that I played NM for a very long time . the list realy has tons of dice rolled , even if it is a bit fragile . but then again in 4th people did play with 5 man squads too and it didnt bother them then . For me it is the same only instead of a las or las/plas I run 2 cannons. But I agree with you that the build gets much better at 1850+ when you can add more stuff to the list then 5 man/razors and rifle man.

 

 

 

 

As GK as a codex goes there are a lot like BAs . when people are new to the game they think it is OP[same with BAs] , at high tier they still work ,but arent realy easy to play with[if any good army can be called that] . And while I know I am immune to the whole bling thing a lot of people arent and that may lead to the view that GK are weak [compering to IG that has undercosted units and SW who have awesome cheap unit and they not cheap ones are even more awesome and/or can be made cheap]. 14 model armies stoped being good when 2ed ended[not couting tank company] , tryint to build an army out of 400 point plus formations doesnt realy work well.

[uberschveinen]

Crowe is like all combat-reliant characters without move abilities; useless save in the most absurd situations. Even if you have an Inquisitor and no Henchmen, and so can take the 52-point universal Rhino for him, he's still probably never going to make impact. And frankly, even if he does it's going to be lacklustre. The Champion rules were obviously written by someone who plays close combat for style, not game. It's damned rare to see crowded bases at all.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

But that's why the codex is so good. Every single thing that could become an easy 'I win' list has a downside, making you think twice before taking them.

[Gentlemanloser]

No one thinks twice about taken Crowe. He's that broken.

 

You only ever take him if you want Pruifiers as troops. And if you do, there's *no* option not to take him.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

As a termie addict I don't even use purifiers, but i've been doing some work on this and have to conclude that Crowe is pretty much useless.

 

It's too easy to kill him as all you need is a single str8+ shot at AP2 or 1, sure he has a 50/50 save but it won't save him from a single turn's focus on him. Hell every army's close combat specialists will take him out in a turn of combat on average rolls.

 

As already stated his only roll is to allow people to build a Purifier force.

[Joasht]

I bought Crowe anyway,because I like his model, and I don't have to break the bank to afford him.

But that said, I'm in agreement with some people who have questioned the viability of the Purifiers as combat units - they cost a lot for something that dies as easily as any normal marine, and if you simply take them for more Psycannons, then you are paying points for their extra attack which may just end up being squandered if not used in the assault role. I'm *FAR* more inclined to take a Henchmen army, because I can take those awesome DCAs (THOSE are assault infantry!) with some Crusader meatshields and tack on an IC for either stubborn or ATSKNF, and grenades.

[Wildfire]

Math hammer falls short often. You are trying to compare apples and oranges... I prefer oranges. :P

 

G :lol:

 

I lol'd at this.

 

 

In any case, I stopped reading halfway through the second page. But I do agree with the codex not being as good as it was initially made out to be. Even I - who repeatedly said that I didn't believe that they'd actually give force weapons to everyone because it was too broken - am now saying it's probably closer to a second tier codex. If only I'd sat down and done some math I would have saved myself a lot of egg on my face. There's certainly some things that are very good in this 'dex (psyflemen, I'm looking at you), but overall it's becoming clear that a lot of things that seemed broken at first glance are not all that bad.

 

Though until they FAQ Coteaz any tourney that doesn't houserule away the unlimited henchmen can be dominated by players willing to spend a ton of money on models.