Grey Knights- not sold on them for competitive play

[KnowThyEnemy]

i guess the reason that i like crowe is 2k is the standard game where i play. ive been playing fantasy lately, but the 2 games i got in before the tournament started he survived. kept a melta vet squad out of my backfield (and away from my dreads) in the first (IG against GK) and foot slogged to the opposing firebase and posted up for a round or two in the second (doubles: IG and GK against IG and BA).

 

as for the "wasted attack" thought when it comes to multiple psycannons in a squad, GKs were built to be mobile shooters. if you need proof of this, just look at all the assault weapons. id rather have the extra tank killing abilities of a psycannon then overdoing it on power weapons. rememeber, if you wipe the enemies squad in the first round of your charge, that return fire is gonna suckkkkkk. i think 12 power weapon attacks is pretty decent, average of 3 wounds against MEQ, better against those T3 troops out there and more so if you need to add hammerhand (never truly necessary, its a crutch only if you let it be). cleansing flame helps against hordes, hammerhand against T5+.

 

whats not to like about that kind of versality? its a unit that can shoot with the best of them (12 S4, 8 S7 Rending on the move, 12 S4, 16 S7 Rending when stationary), puts out a decent amount of CC attacks (12 PW, 8 reg when assaulted, 24 PW, 16 reg when assaulting), with psychic powers to help against those elite units or hordes. if having a unit that can do everything pretty well and counts as scoring is wrong, i dont want to be right :)

[antique_nova]

I am a firm believer that you can win any game, against any opponent with any list you make.

 

So would you face me with an imperial guard army with nothing but lasguns as i take a purifier spamming army with land raider redeemers? :P

 

Only if we bring back the Lucky Hit rules from 3rd Edition ;) Snarkiness aside, I think contextually he means any Codex is capable of beating another one.

 

 

DV8

*Defaces all other codexes and replaces them with GK codexes

 

what if they are all the same? :), ow yea. Any codex can beat another,but players with a certain level of skill and list will make some lists more or less impotent, but my point is that GK IMO are the most competitive army out there at the moment.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[DV8]

*Defaces all other codexes and replaces them with GK codexes

 

what if they are all the same? :(, ow yea. Any codex can beat another,but players with a certain level of skill and list will make some lists more or less impotent, but my point is that GK IMO are the most competitive army out there at the moment.

 

thanks

antique_nova

 

I'd disagree; my thoughts would be that Imperial Guard still hold the spot for most competitive army at present. Are Grey Knights competitive? Absolutely, but I don't think they can hold a candle to an optimized Imperial Guard army.

 

 

DV8

[Marmande]

The arguement is that in competitive play, Crowe is compeltely and utterly useless.

 

Which he is.

 

If he does anything, then you're playing an opponent that isn't really worth your time playing in a tourny. ;)

 

Ah yes, the "well the guy wasn't really that good anyways" argument, I can see nothing wrong here.

[Daedalus Templarius]

I'd disagree; my thoughts would be that Imperial Guard still hold the spot for most competitive army at present. Are Grey Knights competitive? Absolutely, but I don't think they can hold a candle to an optimized Imperial Guard army.

 

 

DV8

 

What would a optimized IG army have in it that Gks would have to specifically prepare for? You talking like a leafblower/chimvetwall?

 

IG are very mean.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

No one thinks twice about taken Crowe. He's that broken.

 

You only ever take him if you want Pruifiers as troops. And if you do, there's *no* option not to take him.

 

But that's the point. It means that there's a disadvantage to an otherwise supremely powerful list that could rank up with Leafblower and post-FAQ Deathwing.

[Oiad]

Why should only a handful of armies get a list that can compete on that level?

[antique_nova]

*Defaces all other codexes and replaces them with GK codexes

 

what if they are all the same? :D, ow yea. Any codex can beat another,but players with a certain level of skill and list will make some lists more or less impotent, but my point is that GK IMO are the most competitive army out there at the moment.

 

thanks

antique_nova

 

I'd disagree; my thoughts would be that Imperial Guard still hold the spot for most competitive army at present. Are Grey Knights competitive? Absolutely, but I don't think they can hold a candle to an optimized Imperial Guard army.

 

 

DV8

 

The reason why certain codexes are more competitive than others is because players are most familiar with that codex and have squeezed more competitiveness from that codex than other codexes.

 

If you give people the same amount of familiarity throughout all the codexes, GK are the most competitive from what i have deduced from sharing my thoughts/experiences with others and from my own deductions from thought and experience.

 

One reason being that a mech army with +3 cover saves is a very hard army to break down with shooting - a mech GK army with a +3 cover save cloud being the way to go IMO.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Brother Nihm]

If you give people the same amount of familiarity throughout all the codexes, GK are the most competitive from what i have deduced from sharing my thoughts/experiences with others and from my own deductions from thought and experience.

Sure generalship and experience matters but it is apples and oranges really. Are GKs competitive, certainly, are they the most competitive? not really. There are books out there that does a better all-round job than the C:GK. C:IG being one.

 

One reason being that a mech army with +3 cover saves is a very hard army to break down with shooting - a mech GK army with a +3 cover save cloud being the way to go IMO.

I am curious, what in your experience does GK's have that can stop a leafblower list from wrecking/crippling most, if not all, of their transports in turn 1-2, followed by focused long and mid-range fire that largely ignores PA?

 

Most leaf-blower variants around here are built around the sole purpose of negating transports and MEQs and these lists also do well against non-MEQ forces. I fail to see how C:GK is better in any way, competitively speaking.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[DV8]

Not to mention that the only way to get this 3+ Cover Save you speak of is via Shrouding, only accessible through a Librarian who conveniently enough can only be taken in Terminator Armor. That means a mech Grey Knight army that needs Shrouding will need either a Storm Raven or Land Raider to ensure the Librarian is able to keep pace with the army. Which means kill whatever is transporting the Librarian and they cripple your army (as mech Grey Knights is far too expensive for what it brings...other armies can do mech better).

 

 

DV8

[Wildfire]

Or Techmarines

[DV8]

The only way you'd benefit from Fortified Terrain is being in it. Being behind/obscured by it still only grants a 4+ Cover Save. So not really "mech" as just "armor-centric" if you're using Techmarines to gain 3+ Cover Saves.

 

 

DV8

[antique_nova]

If you give people the same amount of familiarity throughout all the codexes, GK are the most competitive from what i have deduced from sharing my thoughts/experiences with others and from my own deductions from thought and experience.

Sure generalship and experience matters but it is apples and oranges really. Are GKs competitive, certainly, are they the most competitive? not really. There are books out there that does a better all-round job than the C:GK. C:IG being one.

 

Your talking about the GK with a familiarity that is not on the same level as with the other codexes that you are more comfortable with - in terms of knowledge etc. That should change as time grows and your knowledge of the GK codex with combos, tricks etc.

 

One reason being that a mech army with +3 cover saves is a very hard army to break down with shooting - a mech GK army with a +3 cover save cloud being the way to go IMO.

I am curious, what in your experience does GK's have that can stop a leafblower list from wrecking/crippling most, if not all, of their transports in turn 1-2, followed by focused long and mid-range fire that largely ignores PA?

 

Most leaf-blower variants around here are built around the sole purpose of negating transports and MEQs and these lists also do well against non-MEQ forces. I fail to see how C:GK is better in any way, competitively speaking.

 

My experience tells me that a GK mech army can afford to move at a slower pace than most other mech sm armies. Plus if you have deployed well enough, with a vindicare assassin and other units, in theory you should be able to knock out their commanders who give the orders that bolster the IG's potential to take down transports. With a little luck, but that's just one way of beating an IG list - although i am not saying that that method should be heavily relied upon.

 

Not to mention that the only way to get this 3+ Cover Save you speak of is via Shrouding, only accessible through a Librarian who conveniently enough can only be taken in Terminator Armor. That means a mech Grey Knight army that needs Shrouding will need either a Storm Raven or Land Raider to ensure the Librarian is able to keep pace with the army. Which means kill whatever is transporting the Librarian and they cripple your army (as mech Grey Knights is far too expensive for what it brings...other armies can do mech better).

Your mech army pace is different to mine ;). Mine. Foot slogs. Yes. Footslogs behind rhinos (and sometimes behind dreadnoughts too!) :P. i am not denying that other armies can do mech better than GK, but overall, i believe GK are the best at the moment.

 

Also, if you take the right units, you can afford to leave less time for you to engage the enemy in close combat compared to other marine armies - as they usually have a chainsword and bolt pistol or no extra close combat weapon as opposed to your force weapon.

 

The GK require just as much tactical deployment and thinking as the DE on the battlefield and that's what people are missing quite a lot when assessing the GK codex. The IG are very competitive don't get me wrong, but i don't believe that they are the most competitive - just the most understood codex in the 40K game, bar space wolves.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Zhukov]

Absolutely, but I don't think they can hold a candle to an optimized Imperial Guard army.

Why not? Let me put it differently: What's the best GK build you can come up with?

 

Most leaf-blower variants around here are built around the sole purpose of negating transports and MEQs and these lists also do well against non-MEQ forces. I fail to see how C:GK is better in any way, competitively speaking.

Same for you Nihm :P

 

 

I find it odd how people automaticly asume that Guard are way ahead of other armies and that GK's apparantly are pretty chanceless against them. That's allright of course if you think that, but then I do wonder how your GK lists look like... and why exactly it fails against IG.

 

This however is the other way, which is also wrong as it says GK's are awesomesaucage without any decent reasoning behind it:

If you give people the same amount of familiarity throughout all the codexes, GK are the most competitive from what i have deduced from sharing my thoughts/experiences with others and from my own deductions from thought and experience.

 

One reason being that a mech army with +3 cover saves is a very hard army to break down with shooting - a mech GK army with a +3 cover save cloud being the way to go IMO.

Lolwut?

 

 

So don't take these as presonal attacks, but making such bland statements requires some more explaination to be of much worth.

[antique_nova]

I think i need to reword what i said :D

 

I remember the days when i explained my comments in so much frakking detail, people used to sleep after reading the first two sentences XD. Now i find it hard to make time and get my brain into gear to do such detailed comments, let alone find any in my past posts. :P I may explain in more detail .....later

 

thanks

antique_nova

[DV8]

Absolutely, but I don't think they can hold a candle to an optimized Imperial Guard army.

Why not? Let me put it differently: What's the best GK build you can come up with?

 

Please quote my entire post:

 

I'd disagree; my thoughts would be that Imperial Guard still hold the spot for most competitive army at present. Are Grey Knights competitive? Absolutely, but I don't think they can hold a candle to an optimized Imperial Guard army.

 

I find it odd how people automaticly asume that Guard are way ahead of other armies and that GK's apparantly are pretty chanceless against them. That's allright of course if you think that, but then I do wonder how your GK lists look like... and why exactly it fails against IG.

 

Chanceless? No. But in a competitive environment the Grey Knights simply have far too much stacked against them, the biggest issue of course is their rather expensive units, minimal variety in transports, and predominantly mid-range firepower. While Grey Knights can remain competitive, it is far too easy to potentially cripple a Grey Knight army simply because there aren't that many of them to begin with. However that doesn't mean that the Grey Knights are a low-tier Codex. Even I will admit that they are pretty up there, just below what I consider the top three (Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, and Orks, in that order)

 

That is one of the strengths of the Imperial Guard: they bring so much to the table for very little expenditure in points that very frequently the enemy is overwhelmed by what they have to take down.

 

One of the ways Grey Knights do remain competitive is by playing the objective game, (again, competitive tournament environments, not one-off games, even competitive) and gearing an army built around durability, ensuring that they can achieve the objectives despite not necessarily annihilating their opponents.

 

There is also the issue that all the Codices aren't perfect. By that I mean they aren't perfectly balanced, especially against each other. Unlike Chess, where both sides have literally equal forces, the sad fact is that there are simply armies that have better army books than others (Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, and Orks have some of the best Codices to date, while Chaos Space Marines and Daemons for example, have some of the worst).

 

It's also not like we're talking about a huge disparity in tiered gap. There are the little things here and there that will edge a specific army list ahead of or behind another, and the manner in which said armies are played is a huge contributing factor as well. But given identically skilled generals, the Imperial Guard simply edges the Grey Knight codex out. They simply drown the Grey Knights in firepower, bodies, and vehicles that they simply can't kill in time before being overwhelmed by numbers.

 

 

DV8

[Zhukov]

I don't think I did something wrong by not quoting you completely, as I was only interested in the second piece: The one about GK's not being able to hold up against Guard.

 

Before we go into a lolfest discussion (I've been there too many times, it will go in circles and wil be 'NO', 'YES!', "NOOO"):

 

Could you give you me your best 1750 Guard list and your best 1750 GK list. Makes analyzing stuff easier. (remember, this isn't about being right or wrong so don't worry :D )

 

Because what you say there is so easy to say in theory; that's like me saying: Imperial Guard get beat by Grey Knights because they can't take out Venerable Psyfleman at range, so they will easily kill all vendettas and chimeras over the course of a game, while Grey Knights (especially outflanking or just scouting up) roll over Guard because they aren't getting enough turns of shooting. Grey Knight is pretty much thé best army in countering Guard; because of what I just said and the fact that Grey Knights shoot with everything right away while Guard generally doesn't do much early on with a large part of their army. (Chimvets) On top of that: Guard trouble more to actually win the mission.

 

See? ^^ Not working.

[antique_nova]

Chanceless? No. But in a competitive environment the Grey Knights simply have far too much stacked against them, the biggest issue of course is their rather expensive units, minimal variety in transports, and predominantly mid-range firepower.

 

That is one of the strengths of the Imperial Guard: they bring so much to the table for very little expenditure in points that very frequently the enemy is overwhelmed by what they have to take down.

i lolled at that. In a competitive environment the Imperial Guard simple have far too much stacked against them, the biggest issue of course is their rather squishy units, c][p leadership and lack of close combat beefness

 

*I couldn't resist doing the above, apologies for flaming in advance.

 

The main strength of the Grey knights is quality over quantity, where as with the guard it's the opposite. Granted that their quality, the GK, doesn't mean durability, but ability.

 

Ow and i believe nidz eat orks for breakfast.

 

P.S I will give you MY best IG and GK army lists for 1750 points :D.

 

thanks

antique_nova

[DV8]

I don't think I did something wrong by not quoting you completely, as I was only interested in the second piece: The one about GK's not being able to hold up against Guard.

 

Fair enough, but I think the entire quote is necessary at the very least to establish that I"m not saying Grey Knights aren't competitive...simply that Imperial Guard are typically better at it.

 

Because what you say there is so easy to say in theory; that's like me saying: Imperial Guard get beat by Grey Knights because they can't take out Venerable Psyfleman at range, so they will easily kill all vendettas and chimeras over the course of a game, while Grey Knights (especially outflanking or just scouting up) roll over Guard because they aren't getting enough turns of shooting. Grey Knight is pretty much thé best army in countering Guard; because of what I just said and the fact that Grey Knights shoot with everything right away while Guard generally doesn't do much early on with a large part of their army. (Chimvets) On top of that: Guard trouble more to actually win the mission.

 

See? ^^ Not working.

 

Wut? Chimvets (in my opinion) typically won't make up the bulk of an Imperial Guard army; cheap infantry squads in Chimeras will, backed up by a healthy dose of other armor (Vendettas, Manticores, Medusas, and Hydras for example). My thought continues below, but I'm only going to type it out once because it's in response to antique_nova as well. So scroll below...

 

Chanceless? No. But in a competitive environment the Grey Knights simply have far too much stacked against them, the biggest issue of course is their rather expensive units, minimal variety in transports, and predominantly mid-range firepower.

 

That is one of the strengths of the Imperial Guard: they bring so much to the table for very little expenditure in points that very frequently the enemy is overwhelmed by what they have to take down.

i lolled at that. In a competitive environment the Imperial Guard simple have far too much stacked against them, the biggest issue of course is their rather squishy units, c][p leadership and lack of close combat beefness

 

*I couldn't resist doing the above, apologies for flaming in advance.

 

The main strength of the Grey knights is quality over quantity, where as with the guard it's the opposite. Granted that their quality, the GK, doesn't mean durability, but ability.

 

Right. The problem is that at the end of the day, Grey Knights are simply over-costed Space Marines (take this with a lot of salt, I simply mean that comparison of stats and armor, Grey Knights have the same statline as a Space Marine, and thus are no harder or easier to kill than a Space Marine). The loss of the old rules for Shrouding means Grey Knights can't limit the amount of enemy firepower going into them at range, and all the toys in the world won't save you because you're still just a toughness 4 Space Marine in 3+ armor (or 2+ for Terminators). And that's the problem; Grey Knights are a very specialist army, and while they will perform well against certain armies because they are able to use their strengths, so too their weaknesses (that they are, stats-wise, no harder to kill than a Space Marine worth far less) work against them against armies that just don't care about all their bling.

 

Ow and i believe nidz eat orks for breakfast.

 

I don't care about one-off army comparisons. Of course Tyranids can eat Orks, just as Orks can eat Tyranids. My point is in a tournament-competitive environment, Orks are simply better overall. There is a reason they are consistently in the top winning armies when present (just like Imperial Guard and Space Wolves). In a similar vein, of course Grey Knights can beat Imperial Guard, just as Imperial Guard can beat Grey Knights. Any number of factors can come into play, be it the specifics of the army list, the actual scenario and objectives, terrain, etc. But given a tournament-competitive environment, against any potential foes using the exact same army list, Imperial Guard are simply the better army in comparison to Grey Knights.

 

And again I touched on this beforehand, one of the reasons is because the Imperial Guard can bring so much, for so little in points, that allows them to take on everything, where the loss of a unit or two wont necessarily cripple the army. Grey Knights have the tools on hand to potentially handle all situations, but the problem is that they pay a lot of points for equipment that may not necessarily always be useful. Coupled with how expensive each unit is over-all, how durable they are (re: infantry are no harder to kill than Space Marines, their vehicles are a little more resilient with Shrouding and/or Fortitude), and how utilitarian each unit can be made (the more utilitarian they are, the more points you'll end up spending), it's far harder for Grey Knights because some match-ups simply won't be in their favor (some armies will do better, others won't) and the loss of a unit or two can be potentially damaging to their overall game battleplan.

 

Again my point isn't that Grey Knights aren't competitive, nor that Imperial Guard are a better army overall. But when we're talking consistent tournament-competitive play, I believe that the Imperial Guard will consistently edge out the Grey Knights. This doesn't preclude that Grey Knights can, for example, make it into the top spot. But will they be able to do it consistently? I don't believe so.

 

 

DV8

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

IG are slipping in terms of overall power level. IMO both SW and BA are more competitive... in fact I have seen meched versions shoot IG off the table.

 

G :RTBBB:

[DV8]

Oh I don't doubt it. The Imperial Guard can't hold the top spot forever, and I have a feeling within a year or two they won't be able to claim the top spot for "most competitive army" anymore. Space Wolves for absolute are up there on almost equal footing with the Imperial Guard. Blood Angels I can't say for absolute certain; they are certainly a competitive army, but I just don't have enough experience with and against them to really say with absolute certainty "these guys are the bees knees".

 

 

Dv8

[Zhukov]

@DV8.

 

The thing is: You only mention that they are more expensive Marines...but don't mention the fact that GK's have a higher damage output too. Doing more damage = getting less damage back.

 

That is important. More so though: What does IG really hate? Well multiple things, but one of them is lots of Marines into their face or arriving by outflanking ánd also people being able to damage a lot of Av12. Guess what Grey Knights do?

 

-Psyflemen.

-Grand Master giving Scouts.

 

These 2 things alone give a lot of potential against IG. Personally I go even further and include Mordrak and Ven Psyflemen (they trouble way more with venerable psyflemen as they can't take them out for :cuss with their long range firepower), but I don't know yet if it's needed. (I want my army to be good against everything ofc, not just IG haha)

 

Basicly I think it's too early to say that IG simply beats GK's because there stuff is cheaper. Imperial Guard has severe weaknesses and I'm getting the strong idea that GK's might be able to perfectly exploit them.

 

Vendettas for example are normally really good, but against GK's? Not so much: Go ahead and blow my rhinos up, I don't need them after 1 turn anyway. Then you're dead because Psyflemen instantly counter them after they shot themselves. (they're not having a 4+ cover save if they do)

 

Just 1 example, but I think GK's have some certain 'hard counters', which might just be enough to offset them being more expensive.

 

Makes sense?

 

(btw, I'm not saying GK's > IG here; just that they might be perfectly able to compete with them also 1 on 1 with allcomers lists from both sides. I always talk in allcomers lists anyway)

 

Still waiting for your GK list btw :P We need to be sure first that we think the same about how a good GK list might look like ofc.

[DV8]

(btw, I'm not saying GK's > IG here; just that they might be perfectly able to compete with them also 1 on 1 with allcomers lists from both sides. I always talk in allcomers lists anyway)

 

Still waiting for your GK list btw :cuss We need to be sure first that we think the same about how a good GK list might look like ofc.

 

Please read my post again (particularly the last few paragraphs), because I'm not going to post it twice. It's not a comparison of specific lists, but an comparison analysis of the codices themselves in a tournament-competitive environment.

 

And I don't play Grey Knights so I haven't tried (particularly hard) to write a list I'd take to a tournament. I have spent a great deal reading through the Codex though; while I had originally intended to build a Thousand Sons counts-as from the GK codex, I just don't like the way the army plays.

 

EDIT: Changed the above sentence to more accurately reflect my argument. I don't care about comparing the Imperial Guard codex to the Grey Knight codex; what I am interested in is an analysis of the individual codex (in this case, the Grey Knight one) in a tournament-competitive environment. I am ignoring (and will continue to ignore) your attempt(s) to argue that "Grey Knights will beat Imperial Guard" because its irrelevant.

 

 

DV8

[Zhukov]

Please read my post again (particularly the last few paragraphs), because I'm not going to post it twice. It's not a comparison of specific lists, but an comparison analysis of the codices themselves in a tournament-competitive environment.

 

And I don't play Grey Knights so I haven't tried (particularly hard) to write a list I'd take to a tournament. I have spent a great deal reading through the Codex though; while I had originally intended to build a Thousand Sons counts-as from the GK codex, I just don't like the way the army plays.

 

EDIT: Changed the above sentence to more accurately reflect my argument. I don't care about comparing the Imperial Guard codex to the Grey Knight codex; what I am interested in is an analysis of the individual codex (in this case, the Grey Knight one) in a tournament-competitive environment. I am ignoring (and will continue to ignore) your attempt(s) to argue that "Grey Knights will beat Imperial Guard" because its irrelevant.

We are misunderstanding eachother, I thought you mainly meant that GK's don't hold directly against Imperial Guard... That's why I analysed how GK's will do well against them of course.

I thought you meant that IG is simply a bad mathcup for GK's and that's why you think they wont be as good.

 

If mean in general that they don't hold up compared to IG... then it's a whole different discussion haha.

We actually talk about the same thing then :cuss (I don't care of course if GK's can beat IG or not, when they can't beat other armies its worthless. I did however say this already in that post, so I think it's a little odd that you didn't catch our 'confusion', my English abandonded me haha)

 

But if I'm honest: I don't think you can judge on how good GK is if you haven't even really tried to make good lists with them. Trust me: It takes some time before you see all the potential of this codex.

You can't just truly understand a codex when you only read about them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Zhuk was is a list you would propose to use versus mech IG?

 

G :cuss