Grey Knights- not sold on them for competitive play

[Daedalus Templarius]

I have to say, the psyrifle dread is absurdly effective vs chimeras. When I was playing my friend, I was popping one every turn with a single psyrifle dread. Next time I play him I will take at least 2, because I think he is going to bring a more leafblower list.

 

Also very effective against devilfish and hammerheads it turns out :cuss

[Lord Cuthbert]

Except that comparing unit for unit at unveven point costs prove nothing.

 

1.) When was the last time you saw a BA player run Tactical marines.

2.) When was the last time you saw any marine player not run special weapons (for 200 points said wolf player could kit out his squad with 2 special weapons and a fist, figure out the wounds in that scenario it won't be so pretty.

3.)Units in a vacuum mean nothing, that example is providing that none of the squads are mounted in vehicles, and have no other characters supporting them.

4.) at over 24" for equal points BA and SM tacs can outshoot the GKs as they have options to take guns that shoot further.

5.) With the exception of Transports, Dreads or Henchman Grey knights, have little firepower over 24"

 

I'm not arguing that GKs are not going to be at all competitive, I do fall into the "they're not like other marines" category.

 

Lets look at some equal point examples

 

10 BA assault marines with 1 melta gun vs 10 GKSS

 

At 13-24" the assault marines don't shoot so GKs liekly get 1 round of shooting

killing ~ 2 BA

 

Then the BA jump in shoot 1 melta and 7 pistols probably about 1 kill (2.33 wounds from pistol, .56 from melta) Then they assault

 

at I 4 the BA swing 24 times, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 GKs dead.

GKs swing 10 times, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds (slightly better off, cannot assume hammerhand)

 

SO it is not that the GKs are bad, but when the BA player runs other better assaulting units/priests it will change things alot.

 

The points are irrelevant when making comparisons and they actually support my point. The reason GKSS are higher points is BECAUSE they are more powerful. Thats just plain common sense. When you make a comparison, you compare their role on the gaming table as close as possible. Now note, I could of taken GK Termies and compared them as their role is Troops to GKs, but I thought that would be really unfair and that GKSS were closer in stats so as to be more fair.

 

Your example of an Assault Squad is also erroneous. If you want to compare an BA assault squad, compare it to a GK Interceptor or a Purifier squad. Those are the dedicated assault units for GK. Comparing an Assault Squad to an GKSS is akin to comparing an Assault Squad to a Tactical Squad. I guaranteed the resluts will be just like the GKSS vs Tac squad comparison. GK will all things being equal, eat a BA assault squad in both shooting and assault.

 

PS- Your assumption of 1 rnd of shooting is highly unlikely in your example anyways. Assuming starting at 24", you get a round at 24" and at 6"(BA mv 12", GK mv 6"= 6" apart). And thats not even taking into account if the GK player plays smart and moves 6" away in retrograde to maximize shooting.

 

 

Tell you what, you run your 10 man GKSS and I will run a 10 man BA assault squad and we will meet in the middle.

 

Acutally I have BA many times agianst a GK friend and I always beat him in combat, even the Purifiers. BA are CC and GK are not, the ICC's taht support the BA for what they do in CC trumps what the GK ICC's can do for the GK in CC.

 

GK's are for mid-field firepower saturation, end of story.

[Zhukov]

Zhuk was is a list you would propose to use versus mech IG?

 

G :)

I only propose lists which should work against anything

 

Mind you, this is the kind of list style I like; there are other possibilities. (check sites likes 3++ and YTTH)

 

Depends on points.... Therefore it's easier when I just give the general setup; then you can put together lists yourself (I play at 1700 myself so...):

 

-Grand Master, this can be Mordrak; starting testing him so not sure yet.

-Core at least 3x10 GKSS in Rhinos.

-Psyflemen, either normal ones or Venerable ones. Depends.

-Probably always a unit with Halberds, usually Terminators.

 

The list I run at the moment is this:

 

Inquisitor; Psycannon 80

Mordrak 200

4 Ghost Knights; Halberds 160

Venerable Psyfleman 195

Venerable Psyfleman 195

10 GKSS; 2x psycannon, Psybolt, Hammer, Rhino 290

10 GKSS; 2x psycannon, Psybolt, Hammer, Rhino 290

10 GKSS; 2x psycannon, Psybolt, Hammer, Rhino 290

Total: 1700

 

Very very flexible and starts shooting like crazy from turn 1 onwards :( Not a lot of kill-points either and 30 scoring bodies. (so you pretty much never have to use Grand Strategy for extra scoring; which I personally view as an inneficient use of it)

 

-Inquisitor joins Mordrak + Retinue in almost all cases, gives them a extra wounds + a psycannon + Stubborn

-This unit can either exploit deployement mistakes and/or just put pressure where you want. Not scattering and coming in turn 1 is huge. Alternatively, use them to support your GKSS squads in midfield. (they have Halberds and both Mordrak + the squad can do a psychic power = hammerhand + instakill. Mordrak hits like a train himself too and isn't an IC which is sweet. Put normal wounds on him; might give you free termies now and then heh)

-GKSS squads almost always want to simply disembarck turn 1 and start shooting. Try staying out of range of return fire whenever you can and things like that. (basicly use your mobility and 24" range) You might want to scout (some) of these up and/or outflank some. Even when you roll only a 1, this can still be gamewinning. Don't underestimate re-rolling to wound rolls of 1's.... It's damn good when you fire so many shots a turn. Combatsquadding and sending 3x5 man in rhinos with the Hammer Justicars while the 15 GK's give supporting fire on foot is an option too. OPTIONS, got it? ;)

-Psyflemen are your anti transport and they give more psychic protection to your units. You basicly only ever re-roll Destroyed results; make sure you always have nice fire lanes for them so immobilized doesn't hurt a lot. These baddies can also tie stuff up forever lol. (for example units of Thunder Wolves or Bloodcrushers, or really huge Hordes which you don't want to or can't stormbolter down)

 

That's it in a nutshell. Expect battlereports in about 2 months when I'm done painting and attending proper tourneys with them (:

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Mordrak is kind of the sleeper HQ special character. I want to give him a try soon.

 

G :)

[Gentlemanloser]

He is awesome. Best SC in the dex.

 

But, he won't let you do two psychic powers a turn if he's with a squad of Ghosts Knights, unfortunately. :devil:

[Zhukov]

He is awesome. Best SC in the dex.

 

But, he won't let you do two psychic powers a turn if he's with a squad of Ghosts Knights, unfortunately. :)

Are you sure? He is a guy with Psyker Mastery level 1, Ghosts Knights have the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule, neither one of these rules vanish when he becomes an upgrade character right? So both Mordrak and the Ghost Termies can seperately cast right?

 

I really hope that's the case, because that would be a pretty hefty hit tbfh :devil:

[Gentlemanloser]

PML only applies to characters, he's bound by the units BoP rule when you have Ghost Knights. :(

 

He gets his PML when he's on his own, or if all his Ghost Knights have been killed.

 

Drawback of being an upgrade charcater and in essence just a member of the GK unit. Can't be picked out in CC, but it a memebr of it for BoP. Although tha tmeans all his NDH wounds are ID when the Froce Wepaon is activated. ;)

[Zhukov]

But in the unit he's an upgrade character, so still a character...

 

The wording for Psyker mastery, directly quoted:

 

"For each psyker mastery level a character has, he can use one psychic power a turn"

 

Mordrak his army list entry:

 

"Unit type: Infantry (Character)"

 

Ghost Knight entry (not army list entry):

 

"Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character until such points as the Ghost Knights are slain, at hwich point he reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right."

 

 

Are you 100% sure? :( In that case you need to tell me where my thought fails, as I'm obvious really stuck with this thought in my mind and I'm stubborn as hell haha.

[BrotherWasted]

The issue lies with Brotherhood of Psykers saying that "the unit is a single Psyker". Because Mordrak is subject to BoP while he is an upgrade Character, BoP states that the entire unit is one single Psyker - his Mastery level does not count as being separate.

[Zhukov]

The issue lies with Brotherhood of Psykers saying that "the unit is a single Psyker". Because Mordrak is subject to BoP while he is an upgrade Character, BoP states that the entire unit is one single Psyker - his Mastery level does not count as being separate.

I guess you are right, I'm pretty sure you are actually. *sigh* Might change things radicly :(

 

Edit: Rawr, have to fit Hammerhand on the Inquisitor then I guess ^^

[Gentlemanloser]

Thrawn suffers form the same failing. :rolleyes:

 

Hopefully this will be FAQed.

[DV8]

The difference is that Thrawn, being Psychic Mastery Level 2, can cast two powers while in a Terminator Squad (he acts as the Justicar, who acts as the "casting Psyker" while in the squad). Once Thrawn is killed for the first time and is separated from his squad, the GKTs drop down to 1 Psychic Power a turn, choosing a random model as the caster. Thrawn gets to run around casting two powers solo-mio.

 

 

DV8

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Mordrak and Thrawn are still bad characters though, so the point is rather moot.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thrawn can't DV8, BoP (which Thrawn is bound by) specifies the unit can only cast a single Power.

 

Thrawn can only use his PML(2) to cast 2 powers, when he's on his own and a single mini unit in his own right (which happens after he dies and ressurects. Not even if he's the last surviviing member of his unit...)

[DV8]

Thrawn can't DV8, BoP (which Thrawn is bound by) specifies the unit can only cast a single Power.

 

Thrawn can only use his PML(2) to cast 2 powers, when he's on his own and a single mini unit in his own right (which happens after he dies and ressurects. Not even if he's the last surviviing member of his unit...)

 

Interesting. I'll have to double check the Codex later today...

 

 

DV8

[Abaddonshand]

This debate came up in another thread too, I'm of the opinion that characters with mastery levels are excluded from brotherhood of psykers, for the reasons I've given there. In short, nothing in the codex says that characters lose their psychic abilities (let's face it, why would competent psykers in their own right become weaker when teaming up with other psykers, rather than stronger, or at least remain at the same level?).

 

The debate occured here: Hammerhand, stackable?

[Zhukov]

Mordrak and Thrawn are still bad characters though, so the point is rather moot.

No u.

[TyrionTheImp]

I look at it like this:

 

Neither Mordrak nor Thawn have Brotherhood of Psykers special rule.

 

The Psyker Mastery entry says "characters" not "independent characters".

 

Both Mordrak and Thawn are characters.

 

Mordrak and Thawn can cast separate powers from their squad.

 

I do see how it can be confused, but I believe this is how it is intended and how I would play it regardless of whether I'm fighting as or fighting against Grey Knights.

[Gentlemanloser]

If that really was the case, then *Justicar* Thrawn wouldn't actually be acting as the Justicar for his unit...

 

A Unit with BoP may cast a single Power per turn. That's RAW.

 

This can only change if Mordrak and Thrawn no longer count as being part of that unit. Which as upgrades, they do.

[TyrionTheImp]

By your interpretation IC's can't use different powers either because they are "part of the unit" as you say. They would have to leave the unit to use Psyker powers.

 

Brotherhood of Psykers doesn't apply to them because neither have it. Instead, they have Psyker Mastery, which says "...determines how many psychic powers characters can use each turn." Thawn and Mordrak have the unit type Infantry(character), therefore they can, separately, use as many Psychic powers equal to their mastery level.

 

I agree that Thawn does not count as his squad's Justicar, because he is not a "Justicar or Knight of the Flame" and does not possess Brotherhood of Psykers special rule.

 

I would most certainly argue to the ground if anyone said I can't use Thawn or Mordrak's Psychic powers because they are a single unit with their squads, even though they A. Lack BoP B. Have Psyker Mastery.

 

It is rather poorly written, but I think this interpretation is perfectly legal RAW and is most certainly RAI. Sometimes though, you gotta look past what's written and think about it in common sense.

[BrotherWasted]

Not true. RAW clearly states ICs do not get Special Rules extended to them.

 

Just because Upgrade Characters are bound by BoP does not mean ICs are.

 

Mordrak and Thrawn are not ICs. This means the "special rules do not get extended" does not apply to them, therefore they recieve BoP.

 

And, no, common sense dictates that you follow the rules for Characters as they are written, not simply make up your own interpretation. If the BRB doesn't stop special rules being extended to upgrade characters, then an upgrade character gets BoP if they don't have it already.

 

Not everything in 40K is poorly written - many things just don't work like people want.

[Gentlemanloser]

ICs might attach themselves to units, but they are never technically 'part' of the unit, if that makes sense.

 

Difference between Indipendant and Upgrade, if you like. ;)

 

ICs attached to units aren't bound by BoP. But Upgrades would be.

 

I agree that Thawn does not count as his squad's Justicar, because he is not a "Justicar or Knight of the Flame" and does not possess Brotherhood of Psykers special rule.

 

So Justicar Thrawn, who you upgrade from the Squads Justicar, is no longer the Squads Justicar. ;)

 

That's streaching things a little too far, in order to squeeze out an extra Psychic Power a turn!

 

It is rather poorly written, but I think this interpretation is perfectly legal RAW and is most certainly RAI. Sometimes though, you gotta look past what's written and think about it in common sense.

 

The common sense is that these guys are special. Being non ICs but Upgrades to units, and have two different profiles if you will, depending on whether they are part of a squad, or a isngle mini unit in thier own right. ;)

 

Personally, I just don't think Ward considered *how* these two special guys actually worked. And will have to come up with a band aid, or at the very least some sot of clarification.

 

But curently, by RAW, there's nothing that that stops them being bound by thier units BoP rule.

 

The only way to get round it is to claim the unit as a whole loses BoP when Mordrak/Thrawn are a part of the unit. Either it's a rule that carries across to them, or the unit as a whole loses it.

 

And a Unit of GKT without BoP breaks the 'dex more so than Mordrak/Thrawn being bound to it...

 

Edit: Ninja'd by BW! :P

[TyrionTheImp]

Where does it say Special Rules are extended to characters within the unit? I could be looking in the wrong place, but I don't see it in the BRB, nor do I see it in the BoP special rule. ATSKNF works because it explicitly states so, USR's are outlined in the rule book, BoP doesn't say anything about it applying to characters who don't have it though.

 

Really, if it wasn't specifically infantry(character) I'd accept it, but as it is Infantry(character) unit type + Psyker Mastery to me says BoP doesn't apply. If I could see where it says that Special rules extend to the unit I'll agree, and hope the FAQ makes it as it should be (whatever that may be, I don't really know), but as it stands I just don't see it working that they can't cast Psyker powers because they're bound by BoP.

 

So many flaws in this book it's really annoying, everyone has their own take, nobody can agree, etc, etc. Sooner the FAQ the better, glad I haven't bought any models yet, I don't want to buy things and find out something else is better post-FAQ and go "d'oh!".

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, currently there's only two choices.

 

As upgrade charcaters, either they use the units BoP rule, if it carries over to them, or the whole squad loses it, as there's now a mini in the unit without the rule, and BoP applies to the unit as a whole...

[DeathKorpsman]

I agree that Thawn does not count as his squad's Justicar, because he is not a "Justicar or Knight of the Flame" and does not possess Brotherhood of Psykers special rule.

 

So Justicar Thrawn, who you upgrade from the Squads Justicar, is no longer the Squads Justicar. :P

 

That's streaching things a little too far, in order to squeeze out an extra Psychic Power a turn! :lol:

This isn't a stretch at all really. GW has done all sorts of odd things with upgrade characters and this wouldn't be out of place. It doesn't really make Thawn much better, but this interpretation makes use of all the rules involved for Mordrak as well.

 

It is rather poorly written, but I think this interpretation is perfectly legal RAW and is most certainly RAI. Sometimes though, you gotta look past what's written and think about it in common sense.

 

The common sense is that these guys are special. Being non ICs but Upgrades to units, and have two different profiles if you will, depending on whether they are part of a squad, or a isngle mini unit in thier own right. :P

 

Personally, I just don't think Ward considered *how* these two special guys actually worked. And will have to come up with a band aid, or at the very least some sot of clarification.

 

But curently, by RAW, there's nothing that that stops them being bound by thier units BoP rule.

Not true. If the unit has no Knight/Justicar, they clearly have a default use of BoP. They use a random model. All the rules work in conjunction, both BoP for the unit and Mastery for the upgrade character. They aren't mutually exclusive.

 

The only way to get round it is to claim the unit as a whole loses BoP when Mordrak/Thrawn are a part of the unit. Either it's a rule that carries across to them, or the unit as a whole loses it.

It doesn't say this anywhere. If the Justicar for a squad is dead, what do you do? Use a random model. So if the Justicar is gone because of some other reason, like having an upgrade character, you use a random model. As I stated, the two rules aren't mutually exclusive and can be used together without any conflict.

 

Checking through the BRB and FAQ's, I'm not seeing where upgrade characters lose their unit type when they are part of a unit. All Mordrak's entry says is that if there are no Ghost Knights (either none to start or they are slain) he doesn't pick up IC status. That isn't the same thing as saying upgrade characters lose the character subtype when they are purchased for a unit. If there is an actual reference for upgrade characters losing their unit type, can someone please post it? I may have missed it if it was done previously, but I didn't see any. I just saw "they lose it" without any actual page that says they do. Mastery doesn't require the user to be an IC, only a character and (unless I am in error), the upgrade character continues to be a character whilst in a unit and so can continue using the rule.

 

I can see the confusion and I fully acknowledge the need for a discussion, but I can't reconcile a model losing a special rule when a part of a unit when nowhere does it say it is lost. This is especially true when that rule can work in concert quite well with the other rules of the unit.

 

I know doing points comparisons to point out the logic or illogic of an army choice is kind of pointless, but I'll do it anyway. Why would anyone even think of paying Thawn's ridiculous cost when he adds nothing to his unit until the whole unit is dead? +1 WS? Seems like a big investment for nothing really. He is nearly identical to a normal GKTDA so adds no combat ability to the squad, whereas other upgrade characters in other books with similar costs are killier than the squads they are joining even if they also have special rules that don't work until the unit is dead.