skarn Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Tell you what, you run your 10 man GKSS and I will run a 10 man BA assault squad and we will meet in the middle. Acutally I have BA many times agianst a GK friend and I always beat him in combat, even the Purifiers. BA are CC and GK are not, the ICC's taht support the BA for what they do in CC trumps what the GK ICC's can do for the GK in CC. GK's are for mid-field firepower saturation, end of story. No it isn't the end of story. 10 GKSS and particularly 10 Purifiers (esp with halberds) will statistically beat 10 BA AM in combat, regardless of your experience with your friend. In the context of an actual game it is possible to lever the advantage back towards the BA, but this is equally true for the GK. So Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228328-grey-knights-not-sold-on-them-for-competitive-play/page/7/#findComment-2742025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Tell you what, you run your 10 man GKSS and I will run a 10 man BA assault squad and we will meet in the middle. Acutally I have BA many times agianst a GK friend and I always beat him in combat, even the Purifiers. BA are CC and GK are not, the ICC's taht support the BA for what they do in CC trumps what the GK ICC's can do for the GK in CC. GK's are for mid-field firepower saturation, end of story. No it isn't the end of story. 10 GKSS and particularly 10 Purifiers (esp with halberds) will statistically beat 10 BA AM in combat, regardless of your experience with your friend. In the context of an actual game it is possible to lever the advantage back towards the BA, but this is equally true for the GK. So I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. The example was equal points. You're talking about giving the 10 man GK squad a ~100 point advantage over the BA AS. I'm not sure what we are supposed to learn when you say a ~300 point GK squad can beat a ~200 point BA squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228328-grey-knights-not-sold-on-them-for-competitive-play/page/7/#findComment-2742113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skarn Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Read it again, especially this part; Tell you what, you run your 10 man GKSS and I will run a 10 man BA assault squad and we will meet in the middle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228328-grey-knights-not-sold-on-them-for-competitive-play/page/7/#findComment-2742164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resv Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 I just ran Zhukov's list in a few games tonight with a few slight changes for 1750. Instead of an Inquisitor I used a Brother-Captain(not a great use of points I admit) with all of the fixings (ie, Grenades and psycannon) and used regular Psy-rifle Dreads to free up the points. I know I could have taken a Librarian but I wanted to have a Psycannon handy instead just for kicks. It worked surprisingly well and I was rather impressed with being able to lay down a pin point smack down unit right where they were needed. After playing two games it kinda of made me completely rethink Mordrak, I do miss my Paladins but it was fun to watch Ghost Knights suddenly appear directly into combat. On to the subject of Point for Point and this is aimed at Leksington: You clearly say "Tell you what, you run your 10 man GKSS and I will run a 10 man BA assault squad and we will meet in the middle." There is no point limit mentioned in any of your posts. This brings me to my point, why are you doing analysis based on sub-optimum units you are likely NEVER TO SEE PLAYED. I don't think I will ever see anyone take only 180 points worth of GKSS and even then with no upgrades whatsoever. You're stacking the deck against the Gray Knights to prove that Assault Marines are better rather than extrapolating a much more likely scenario. There is also one big issue you gloss over in your Mathammer analysis on the previous page as well. You said that the GK Storm Bolters will cause only two wounds against the BA, but then shortly after that you say that the BA Assault Squad would cause somewhere around 2.6 wounds with their pistols. This is where I kinda started scratching my head, how are Pistols doing more wounds than Storm Bolters? Unless they changed the rules on me, Storm Bolters are still assault 2 right? Not to mention that during your argument, you leave out how many models are in each unit so there is no frame of reference for your conclusion that BA Assault Squads will beat GKSS every time. I would like to point out though, the Blood Angels got to bring a Meltagun to the party but the GKSS left their Psycannon (which costs the SAME AMOUNT OF POINTS) at home. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228328-grey-knights-not-sold-on-them-for-competitive-play/page/7/#findComment-2742169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Just something I wanted to point out as it was bothering me the whole time I was reading this because almost all of you did this... Grand Admiral Thrawn is a star wars character Justicar Thawn, note the lack of an "r" in his name, is a warhammer 40,000 character. That is all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228328-grey-knights-not-sold-on-them-for-competitive-play/page/7/#findComment-2742184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 On to the subject of Point for Point and this is aimed at Leksington: You clearly say "Tell you what, you run your 10 man GKSS and I will run a 10 man BA assault squad and we will meet in the middle." There is no point limit mentioned in any of your posts. This brings me to my point, why are you doing analysis based on sub-optimum units you are likely NEVER TO SEE PLAYED. I don't think I will ever see anyone take only 180 points worth of GKSS and even then with no upgrades whatsoever. You're the deck against the Gray Knights to prove that Assault Marines are better rather than extrapolating a much more likely scenario. If you go back and check... It was someone else who said that (it was Lord Cuthbert). :P I did not saying that the BA were better at CC. My contribution was merely to point out that it is silly to compare CC effectiveness if you aren't comparing equal points. For an encore was Skarn going to say that he'll take his 1500 point GK Army against 1000 points of BA any day? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228328-grey-knights-not-sold-on-them-for-competitive-play/page/7/#findComment-2742323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skarn Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 To be fair Lek, I was also replying to the 10 vs 10. I don't think you and I have any real disagreement here at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228328-grey-knights-not-sold-on-them-for-competitive-play/page/7/#findComment-2742326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnothere Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Well lets point it up then, what's the typical SS build? I think it's 10 SS, MCHammer, psybolts, no halberds and 2 psycannons. What's a typical assault squad build? 10AM, Pfist Sarge, 2 Specials. Don't know the BA points but for GK it's 255, what does the BA get for that? If someone could work out the points and as long as they're not massively different we should have a base line to work from. If it comes down to it add a Sang Priest and boost the GK with Halberds to match points. Now I'd put the money on GK getting 2 round of shooting but who knows how a game will play out. I think each round of shooting would put 3 wounds on the BA without fnp. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228328-grey-knights-not-sold-on-them-for-competitive-play/page/7/#findComment-2742388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Well lets point it up then, what's the typical SS build? I think it's 10 SS, MCHammer, psybolts, no halberds and 2 psycannons. What's a typical assault squad build? 10AM, Pfist Sarge, 2 Specials. Don't know the BA points but for GK it's 255, what does the BA get for that? If someone could work out the points and as long as they're not massively different we should have a base line to work from. If it comes down to it add a Sang Priest and boost the GK with Halberds to match points. Now I'd put the money on GK getting 2 round of shooting but who knows how a game will play out. I think each round of shooting would put 3 wounds on the BA without fnp. Had that discussion and math hammered it out in this thread. GKSS are superior in both shooting and assault hands down. Just have to look up a couple pages and you will see I math hammered it out with BA, SM, and SW. GK were superior in both firepower and assault vs. all. The closest was SW in assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228328-grey-knights-not-sold-on-them-for-competitive-play/page/7/#findComment-2742391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnothere Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Thanks, didn't realise as everyone else seemed to be talking about it. I take it you used identical points? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228328-grey-knights-not-sold-on-them-for-competitive-play/page/7/#findComment-2742409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Here is a thought. We could wait till a significant number of tournaments pass by and see how GK fare and what builds rise up to the challenge. Seems to have been the best way with the new codices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228328-grey-knights-not-sold-on-them-for-competitive-play/page/7/#findComment-2742716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Read it again, especially this part;Tell you what, you run your 10 man GKSS and I will run a 10 man BA assault squad and we will meet in the middle. If the SS has halberds, my money os on the GK. Even with furious charge the BA's go second. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228328-grey-knights-not-sold-on-them-for-competitive-play/page/7/#findComment-2742718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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