9 men in a rhino ....

[Hear da Lamentation]

Just a bit of feedback from finding an unexpected bonus recently.

 

I've had to reduce my GH packs by one each as part of a way to get enough points banked for some TWC. I love my GH packs as didn't want to reduce their effectiveness, so this worried me a little.

 

However, I've found the fact that each of my 2 rhinos and 1 razorback has room in it for one extra guy has been really useful for the RP. The tanks tend to stay close together at the start of the game, and this allows for the RP to "hop" tanks if his gets popped. Bearing in mind the RP tank is likely to be a high target priority anyway (and seeingly more so now with GK), this really keeps the enemy unable to pin him down.

 

Saved me 45 points as well .... or almost 1 thunderwolf....

[Nrthstar]

my rp always travels in style via rhino except on the rare occasion I play 2, then my second hangs back with my long fangs.

[Growler67]

So you announce to your opponent spefically what you have in each vehicle? How else would your opponent target your RP?

 

My gaming groups used to play where if a vehice was loaded, we had indicators like letters or numbers on counters or cards placed next to the vehicle. The intenal loads were written down to avoid cheating and not revealed until the vehicle targeted had a result that would cause a dismount or casualties or until the played dismounted to reveal its contents. The balance being ones opponent could target any vehicle on the board, but didn't know which ones were loaded nor with what, as it would be in real life. A comander on a battlefield would only see the vehcles and would have no other infrmation about which had any special characters or whatever inside.

 

Your tactic seems sound otherwise as a contingent, but I think announcing who or what is loaded in each before the game starts is bad generalsip. Your gaming group, you do what the group agrees is best.

[Nrthstar]

In truth, my group always tells each other what is in each unit and what unit is in each vehicle. This is largely because we are a friendly bunch and we have a lot of new players so wysiwyg isn't possible yet.

 

I'd enjoy playing totally WYSIWYG like I used to though as it makes more interesting and surprising.

[Simo429]

In every tournament I have ever been to you explain your army list and tell your opponents what is in each vehicle.

[Vor]

It's common in my area to put the squad leader, be it the sergeant or an IC, on the top of the transport. Then everyone knows who is in what.

[Growler67]

In every tournament I have ever been to you explain your army list and tell your opponents what is in each vehicle.

 

One of the reasons I never played in tourneys. This parctice give up tactical as well as strategic advantage through planning. It alters tactics one may have planned or counted on in developing ones list. It screams "Hey, this is or these are the vehicles you want to take out first". One does not learn nor develop tactical skills by knowing what is where and giving up targeting priority information straight away.

[Valerian]

In every tournament I have ever been to you explain your army list and tell your opponents what is in each vehicle.

 

One of the reasons I never played in tourneys. This parctice give up tactical as well as strategic advantage through planning. It alters tactics one may have planned or counted on in developing ones list. It screams "Hey, this is or these are the vehicles you want to take out first". One does not learn nor develop tactical skills by knowing what is where and giving up targeting priority information straight away.

 

That may be true, but that is the standard, even in friendly play with random blokes at any LGS. You can always do whatever you want on your own turf, with your friends as you agree the game should be played. However, if you go out to a shop and start a pick-up game with a stranger, the expectation is that you tell each other what's in each transport. Just like you would tell your opponent what's in each unit, or what a special weapon or model is generally capable of, if he isn't familiar with your codex.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Simo429]

In every tournament I have ever been to you explain your army list and tell your opponents what is in each vehicle.

 

One of the reasons I never played in tourneys. This parctice give up tactical as well as strategic advantage through planning. It alters tactics one may have planned or counted on in developing ones list. It screams "Hey, this is or these are the vehicles you want to take out first". One does not learn nor develop tactical skills by knowing what is where and giving up targeting priority information straight away.

Just because you know where things are does not mean you will certainly be able to do anything about them and also think about the converse, if you give your opponent something they have to shoot at it will dictate what they do and mean that you can then adapt accordingly which is what the game is about rather than purely the chance that you are on about.

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

I don't play in tournaments and my rather large local group plays the "mystery card". We don't show each other our lists, we don't tell each other what's coming in from reserves in what order and we don't tell each other what's in every transport. It all gets marked down on the lists in case someone wants to cry foul about units mysteriously switching vehicles. We enjoy the challenge that comes with not knowing exactly what's coming and when.

 

Sure, reserves are always left up to chance because of having to roll. We personally like to see the sweat bead up on each other's faces when "something" comes in from reserve and we don't know what until the models hit the table.

 

Maybe it seems silly to some people, but we all enjoy playing that way.

[Grimtooth]

Was just debating this point on another forum.

 

You only need to tell your opponent what is in the transport, not what they have. This is the relevant quote I believe from the BRB:

 

"In the same sprit, always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle."

 

So when asked,

 

"What is in that Rhino?"

 

All you are obliged to answer is,

 

"Grey Hunter pack."

[Tybrus]

In every tournament I have ever been to you explain your army list and tell your opponents what is in each vehicle.

 

One of the reasons I never played in tourneys. This parctice give up tactical as well as strategic advantage through planning. It alters tactics one may have planned or counted on in developing ones list. It screams "Hey, this is or these are the vehicles you want to take out first". One does not learn nor develop tactical skills by knowing what is where and giving up targeting priority information straight away.

 

I am with Growler on this one. I know what the standard "Norm" is, but I talk to my opposition before the game and just like clearing up what terrain is what, we talk over how they like to play. My style is very Fluff based for my arm, and making the game fun for both people. I have been playing long enough I still have my 2ed "Mission Cards" and offer to use those. IMHO 2ed had it right with hidden mission cards for EACH army. Anyway, my point is just like everything else if you talk to your foe before hand you can ensure a much more fun game...

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

The extent to which we follow that particular guideline from the BRB is as follows:

 

"I'm shooting that rhino with this squad."

 

"Which rhino? A, B, or C?"

 

"Umm....C."

 

(I look at my sheet to confirm which squad will be popping out of rhino C if it explodes)

 

"Alright. That's two hits....One penetrating.....6, vehicle explodes."

 

(I grab the squad that was designated for rhino C and place them appropriately)

 

"So that's what was in there, eh?"

 

"Yup. Here, I marked it down just so you know i'm not pulling your leg."

 

(I show the list where it clearly notes said squad being in rhino C)

 

All that being said, if one of us were to play at a LGS or a tournament we would have absolutely no problem following the normal rules. This is just how we do things amongst each other. There are about 8 of us that regularly get together in one basement or garage or another and between all of us, every 40K army and most fantasy armies are represented. Things never get dull when you can face any army on any given day.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So you announce to your opponent spefically what you have in each vehicle? How else would your opponent target your RP?

 

My gaming groups used to play where if a vehice was loaded, we had indicators like letters or numbers on counters or cards placed next to the vehicle. The intenal loads were written down to avoid cheating and not revealed until the vehicle targeted had a result that would cause a dismount or casualties or until the played dismounted to reveal its contents. The balance being ones opponent could target any vehicle on the board, but didn't know which ones were loaded nor with what, as it would be in real life. A comander on a battlefield would only see the vehcles and would have no other infrmation about which had any special characters or whatever inside.

 

Your tactic seems sound otherwise as a contingent, but I think announcing who or what is loaded in each before the game starts is bad generalsip. Your gaming group, you do what the group agrees is best.

 

If that is what you and your buddies like doing, cool.

 

But war isn't about two equal pointed forces contested one another either. In fact, that is a mathematical improbability in real life.

 

We are playing a warGAME, like Chess or Checkers, etc. We are not playing a warSIMULATION.

 

Also, people make enough mistakes on the table as it is, myself included. Trying to ninja someone is just allowing another chance for an error to creep in.

 

I think some of the historical simulations have that sort of thing built into them, which 40K just doesn't have.

[Growler67]

The point being that within game context, we tried to replicate Field Generalship tactics abd the reactions and decisions made on the table-top. Which bow of Cracker Jack has the secret toy surprise you REALLY want. The mathmatical translations and comparisons to a real life battlefield were not our intent. In many instances what capabiliities are present in the 21st Century are far better than those in the 41st. To sharpen ones tactical skills, our way worked better......at least they did for us.

[RunningWolfFenris]

I've always done it with my buddies where we say whats in what if asked. I've also seen people play where it's written down but not shared unless it's open topped {can see the people inside)

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

So you announce to your opponent spefically what you have in each vehicle? How else would your opponent target your RP?

 

My gaming groups used to play where if a vehice was loaded, we had indicators like letters or numbers on counters or cards placed next to the vehicle. The intenal loads were written down to avoid cheating and not revealed until the vehicle targeted had a result that would cause a dismount or casualties or until the played dismounted to reveal its contents. The balance being ones opponent could target any vehicle on the board, but didn't know which ones were loaded nor with what, as it would be in real life. A comander on a battlefield would only see the vehcles and would have no other infrmation about which had any special characters or whatever inside.

 

Your tactic seems sound otherwise as a contingent, but I think announcing who or what is loaded in each before the game starts is bad generalsip. Your gaming group, you do what the group agrees is best.

 

If that is what you and your buddies like doing, cool.

 

But war isn't about two equal pointed forces contested one another either. In fact, that is a mathematical improbability in real life.

 

We are playing a warGAME, like Chess or Checkers, etc. We are not playing a warSIMULATION.

 

Also, people make enough mistakes on the table as it is, myself included. Trying to ninja someone is just allowing another chance for an error to creep in.

 

I think some of the historical simulations have that sort of thing built into them, which 40K just doesn't have.

 

 

I understand where you're coming from. Personally, I feel like playing the way they do in tournaments is (to borrow your chess/checkers comparison) like telling my opponent the next three moves i'm planning on making before I do it.

 

We are human and have made errors in the past with points calculations. Rather than screaming at each other and bashing each other over the head with blunt objects, we simply agreed to start the game over or wait for another day to get it right. I don't think anyone is really trying to run a war-sim, but to some people it feels much more "real" when you look across a table at an enemy tank and don't have the equivalent of x-ray vision to know exactly what's inside it. It adds a dynamic to the game that some of us enjoy.

[Grimtooth]

Interestingly enough, I have now been banned from Dakka for this topic.....LOL!

 

From both the WYSIWYG rule and the Note on Secrecy rule in the BRB, here is what you as a player are compelled to do:

 

1. Visually represent the wargear on your model or if not able, explain it to your opponent before the game.

 

2. Agree on whether or not to exchange army lists and make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked on which transport vehicle.

 

So when an opponent asks,

 

"What is in that rhino?

 

You can legally say,

 

"A Grey Hunter pack."

 

You are not required to say,

 

"A Grey Hunter pack with two meltas, one MoW, one Wolf Standard, and a power fist."

[maverik_girl]

how do you get banned? LOL

[Growler67]

For clarification: All models being played were on display for inspection/questions prior to the game starting and units being deployed. Deployment commenced with terrain pieces first then units per the scenario agreed upon. Vehicles were deployed in the order chosen but their contents (which squad specifically from the inspection phase) were not disclosed (again, not tourney play). The exception was with open topped vehicles in which the contents could be seen (as per BRB - common sense). Disclosure of "unit(s)" being held in Reserves - "I have 2 units in Reserves" was stated prior to the Initiative Roll. Then the game would commence.

 

Once an enclosed vehicle was popped, either by player or opponent, it's contents were dismounted accordingly as per how/why the can was opened. Sometimes it was a surprize, other times it was a GREAT surprize. It's just the way we did it. Nothing particularly right or wrong with it as none of us played in tourneys. We were a competitive bunch and we all liked being tested by having to react and adjust as things were revealed and the game progressed.

 

The stakes were friendly, usually losers got stuck with the pizza bill or whatever and after the game if anyone wanted their opponents Army List for whatever reason(s), they were handed over, no problem.

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I follow the tell only if asked rout when dealing with this topic. And as many of you have agreed with, I believe it keeps a certain realism to the game and makes your opponent think slightly harder. I number my tanks and mark on my roster the corresponding packs, I will also notate whether there is a WG or RP, WP etc in said squad. If this game was a real battle, you would not be broadcasting to your enemies what tricks you have up your sleeves, nor would you just hand over the information to them. But because this is a game (and nothing more), it is good sportsmanship to not be an A hole and deny the ability to view your list or know where certain units are located.

 

It's a shame you got banned from any site Brother_Ramses, but B'n'C is clearly the best one out there!! ^_^

 

End of Line

[Grimtooth]

My stance is that I will tell you what squad is embarked, and that is it. I am not giving you free intel on my units beyond what I have already revealed by voluntarily sharing my army list and telling you which units are embarked in each transport.

 

If my opponent moves a dread towards my rhino and forgets that it has a pair of meltas ready to pop out and slag him, his bad not mine.

[Simo429]

My stance is that I will tell you what squad is embarked, and that is it. I am not giving you free intel on my units beyond what I have already revealed by voluntarily sharing my army list and telling you which units are embarked in each transport.

 

If my opponent moves a dread towards my rhino and forgets that it has a pair of meltas ready to pop out and slag him, his bad not mine.

That is how I would play it,

 

however at the start of the game I feel you should say which squad is embarked in which rhino and I do this by denoting special weapons on the top of the rhino.

I would also share with my opponent and expect it to be shared if I were to ask for clarification.

 

People are talking about issues of realism but realism in a technologically advanced society would be that you would have a good idea on the equipment available to the enemy and its dispositions.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

People are talking about issues of realism but realism in a technologically advanced society would be that you would have a good idea on the equipment available to the enemy and its dispositions.

 

Exactly, it is a science fantasy setting. Realism is whatever you want to justify. If dudes want full disclosure, cool. If they don't, cool. Just as long as people are on the same page from before deployment :pirate:

 

If your foe starts telling you his composition and you have no intent on sharing yours, it is obvious he is intending on playing the game differently to you, and as he was being gentlemanly in sharing that with you, you need to come clean that you have no intention of sharing that with him and he can change what he was doing or you can follow his example. Otherwise, he is just going to feel you are out to hoodwink him it what is supposed to be an enjoyable game - whether played intensely or not.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Interestingly enough, I have now been banned from Dakka for this topic.....LOL!

 

LOLZORS :pirate: