9 men in a rhino ....

[Hear da Lamentation]

LOL - this made me take a second look when I saw how much traffic my post had had - and how many replies. I was wondering what had caught so much attention.

 

In all the games I have played (99% of which are amongst friends) we tell each other everything that is in the army - and where it is. I find this stops arguments. In fact this is so much the case that the rhino my RP goes into has been decorated with his personal emblem.

 

That said .... as long as both players know what level of disclosure is going to happen .. and they are both happy with that ... then that's fine in my book.

 

You live and learn ... I didn't even know this was a discussion point :ermm:

[Stormshrug]

In every tournament I have ever been to you explain your army list and tell your opponents what is in each vehicle.

 

One of the reasons I never played in tourneys. This parctice give up tactical as well as strategic advantage through planning. It alters tactics one may have planned or counted on in developing ones list. It screams "Hey, this is or these are the vehicles you want to take out first". One does not learn nor develop tactical skills by knowing what is where and giving up targeting priority information straight away.

 

I've never met anyone who didn't give their opponent a rundown of their army before the game, and if you do that, it's traditional to tell them where things are going during deployment.

 

After deployment, it's on them to remember where you put things.

 

-Stormshrug

[Mac the knife]

Anyone else read subject line of this thread and immediately think "Why would Space Wolves havea moving company?"

[Hfran Morkai]

I dislike equipping my opponent with that knowledge but would hand out the info if they wanted to, to put us on an even footing (Then again, I play footslogging now so none of these shenanigans :D). When I get round to adding some transport to my force my opponent can look at the Pack markings and the vehicle markings, even after I've told them the contents XD

[Nrthstar]

Anyone else read subject line of this thread and immediately think "Why would Space Wolves havea moving company?"

 

I originally thought it was the name of a new sitcom...

[Grimtooth]

how do you get banned? LOL

 

I actually sent an email to the webmaster and was told I was rude and sarcastic for the following statements,

 

"Are you even listening?"

 

and

 

"No, but I can totally see how me having to hold your hand totally makes sense in a game that pretty much revolves around tactics."

 

But back on topic somewhat,

 

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s89/Grimtooth_photos/markings.jpg

 

Is on my rhinos. That corresponding rune set is on my Grey Hunters shoulderpads. So there is no confusing at the beginning of the game who is embarked on what. Now in the event that a unit gets into another units dedicated transport, I just declare that X unit is now embarking on Y dedicated transport.

 

However as I mentioned, I am not giving up squad composition when asked what is in a rhino during the game. I make extra copies of my list from Army Builder to specifically hand over to my opponent for him to actually keep. At the beginning of the game I do a rundown for my opponent while he has my list in his hand along the lines of,

"Ok, I have 3 Grey Hunter squads, two of them with dual meltaguns, one with dual plasmaguns. I have a Long Fang pack with 5 missile launchers and a pack leader. My Rune Priest is joined to them. Etc, etc, etc for whatever else I am taking that game."

 

Now after that brief, I have fulfilled my responsibility of sharing my list and army composition. Once the game has begun, I really only have to let my opponent know which squad is embarked in which transport, not the composition of the squad.

[Hear da Lamentation]

I originally thought it was the name of a new sitcom...

 

LOL - yes, but I guess Charlie Sheen is doing some "other things" now and may be a little "tired and emotional", so I guess we'll have to find someone else to star in it :P

[Growler67]

Anyone else read subject line of this thread and immediately think "Why would Space Wolves havea moving company?"

 

I originally thought it was the name of a new sitcom...

 

LOL - yes, but I guess Charlie Sheen is doing some "other things" now and may be a little "tired and emotional", so I guess we'll have to find someone else to star in it :)

 

The joke/comment misses it's mark with some through the fault of geography. In the US there is a movng company with the business name "Two men and a Truck".

 

Moving on......

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks Growler .. I had wondered about the removal men post :lol:

[Light Warden]

Regardless of whether or not you define your transports, doesn't it become fairly obvious where your RP is after you measure distance for your first psychic power use (probably on turn 1)?

[Growler67]

Thanks Growler .. I had wondered about the removal men post ;)

 

The term "Global Community" is overlooked by some as well. Assumptions can be telling of a persons broad-mindedness. Just sayin'.

[Nrthstar]

Regardless of whether or not you define your transports, doesn't it become fairly obvious where your RP is after you measure distance for your first psychic power use (probably on turn 1)?

 

Very true, but a third of the game can be decided in your setup. By not knowing what is where generals can't optimize their positions. I look forward to the occasional wysiwyg game just for the surprise.

 

Growler I'm not sure what you're really trying to insinuate...

[Growler67]

[quote name='Nrthstar' date='Apr 26 2011, 12:25 PM' post='2737908'

 

Growler I'm not sure what you're really trying to insinuate...

 

Cool your jets, nothing nefarious. Just that some peole don't realize that there are members from everywhere around this globe on this board and that some forget that members aren't ONLY from the States or the UK or whatever. Those are the assumptions I was referring to. Just relax and have another ale....m'kay.

[Emperor's Scourge]

I think its odd that people argue for non-disclosure of troop complements in transports to make the game more strategic or tactical. You're removing the ability to plan and basing the first three turns or so on dumb luck.

 

"mmm...I think I'll shoot Rhino 3 instead of Rhino 1/2/4." "You sunk my battleship!"

 

Not to mention that you're exploiting the fact that you have a bunch of transports. 5th edition makes mech strong enough without certain folks looking for any kind of edge they can get turning wh40k into a shell game.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I think its odd that people argue for non-disclosure of troop complements in transports to make the game more strategic or tactical. You're removing the ability to plan and basing the first three turns or so on dumb luck.

 

"mmm...I think I'll shoot Rhino 3 instead of Rhino 1/2/4." "You sunk my battleship!"

 

Not to mention that you're exploiting the fact that you have a bunch of transports. 5th edition makes mech strong enough without certain folks looking for any kind of edge they can get turning wh40k into a shell game.

 

:huh:

and insightful too :rolleyes:

:)

 

+++

 

You sig reads "board error" or something like that....

[Grimtooth]

I think its odd that people argue for non-disclosure of troop complements in transports to make the game more strategic or tactical. You're removing the ability to plan and basing the first three turns or so on dumb luck.

 

"mmm...I think I'll shoot Rhino 3 instead of Rhino 1/2/4." "You sunk my battleship!"

 

Not to mention that you're exploiting the fact that you have a bunch of transports. 5th edition makes mech strong enough without certain folks looking for any kind of edge they can get turning wh40k into a shell game.

 

The rules tell you that you have to inform your opponent which squad is embarked in which transport. What more do you want? Why would I be compelled to inform you where my meltaguns are so you can avoid them with your armor? Why would I be compelled to inform you were my plasmaguns are so you can avoid them with your infantry?

 

All you need to know and all you are permitted to know is,

 

"Grey Hunters in these three Rhinos, WGTDA with Logan Grimnar in the LRR, and Long Fangs in the Razorback."

 

Now if you need to prevent transport hopping that some cheaters will do, my units are marked to match their rhinos. If not marked, I would tell you which ones are which, but beyond that initial information (write it down, remember it, take a picture, whatever), I do not need to tell you what the squad is equipped with, only what squad they are.

[Emperor's Scourge]

Double post removed.

[Emperor's Scourge]

You're skirting the edge of WAACs here. Or maybe you run Erik Morkai's GC? ^_^

 

Me? I name my squads. I name my Wolf Guard. My army lists have the names printed on them.

 

They all bear their own unique pack markings and those markings will be displayed on their Rhinos when I get around to finishing them.

 

You wear a sword on your hip, not in your pocket.

 

All that aside, do what you want. Its a game. Just don't cop an attitude when people call you skeevy for your decisions.

 

@marshalwilhelm: Fixed my sig I think. Its just a little blog of WIP, book reviews and odd news snippets. Nothing super special.

[Grimtooth]

You're skirting the edge of WAACs here. Or maybe you run Erik Morkai's GC? :ermm:

 

Me? I name my squads. I name my Wolf Guard. My army lists have the names printed on them.

 

They all bear their own unique pack markings and those markings will be displayed on their Rhinos when I get around to finishing them.

 

You wear a sword on your hip, not in your pocket.

 

All that aside, do what you want. Its a game. Just don't cop an attitude when people call you skeevy for your decisions.

 

@marshalwilhelm: Fixed my sig I think. Its just a little blog of WIP, book reviews and odd news snippets. Nothing super special.

 

What You See Is What You Get, page 47

 

"Character models in particular tend to have a lot of options as to what weapons and wargear they can use - given in the army list of their Codex. The rule is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model so you opponent can clearly see what they are facing. This concept is often referred to as WYSIWYG, which stands for 'what you see is what you get'.

 

Of course, many gamers enjoy trying out different combinations of wargear in different battles. So, if for example, a player might decide that for his next game a model's power sword will simply count as a close combat weapon, but he will also equip the model with melta bombs. While some tournaments may be more strict about this kind of thing, most opponents are happy to accommodate a small degree of one thing counting as another, so long as you explain exactly who has what at the start of the game."

 

A Note On Secrecy, page 92

"To keep things fair, you should always allow your opponent to read your force roster after a game. In the same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked on which transport vehicle. However, before starting to deploy their armies, it is a good idea for players to agree whether or not they can read the opponents roster before and during the game. Some players prefer full disclosure (which is the norm in tournaments, for example), as they want to concentrate on outmaneuvering the enemy rather than springing a secret trump card on them. Others prefer to leave a feel of secrecy around their lists, as bluffing can make a game really entertaining. The choice is yours."

 

These are the relevant rules that direct what you have to reveal and how your models are presented to your opponent. It is not WAAC to follow the rules as they are presented.

 

Asking for squad composition when I have already told you what squad is embarked is going beyond the rules as written. When asked what squad is in a Rhino,

 

"A Grey Hunter pack."

 

Is completely legal and all that I am required to respond.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

It's a moot point for me, as each Rhino/Razorback has a pack marking in large red lines on the top, and my army list has pictures of each model next to the unit entry, so it's almost impossible to hide, and if they switch, they have to get out, meaning my opponent can keep track of them.

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

You're skirting the edge of WAACs here. Or maybe you run Erik Morkai's GC? :)

 

Me? I name my squads. I name my Wolf Guard. My army lists have the names printed on them.

 

They all bear their own unique pack markings and those markings will be displayed on their Rhinos when I get around to finishing them.

 

You wear a sword on your hip, not in your pocket.

 

All that aside, do what you want. Its a game. Just don't cop an attitude when people call you skeevy for your decisions.

 

@marshalwilhelm: Fixed my sig I think. Its just a little blog of WIP, book reviews and odd news snippets. Nothing super special.

 

A sword is indeed worn on your hip...and Grey Hunters go INSIDE the rhino, not clinging to the outside in full view with their weapons and gear raised high in the air so the enemy can get a good look.

 

I haven't heard a single person call what we do "skeevy" until now. As I stated before, if someone wants to accuse me of cheating, I can easily prove that i'm not in black and white print. If I choose to play someone who wants to put all the cards on the table, then i'll do that if that's what they prefer.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

What You See Is What You Get, page 47

 

"Character models in particular tend to have a lot of options as to what weapons and wargear they can use - given in the army list of their Codex. The rule is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model so you opponent can clearly see what they are facing. This concept is often referred to as WYSIWYG, which stands for 'what you see is what you get'.

 

Of course, many gamers enjoy trying out different combinations of wargear in different battles. So, if for example, a player might decide that for his next game a model's power sword will simply count as a close combat weapon, but he will also equip the model with melta bombs. While some tournaments may be more strict about this kind of thing, most opponents are happy to accommodate a small degree of one thing counting as another, so long as you explain exactly who has what at the start of the game."

 

A Note On Secrecy, page 92

"To keep things fair, you should always allow your opponent to read your force roster after a game. In the same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked on which transport vehicle. However, before starting to deploy their armies, it is a good idea for players to agree whether or not they can read the opponents roster before and during the game. Some players prefer full disclosure (which is the norm in tournaments, for example), as they want to concentrate on outmaneuvering the enemy rather than springing a secret trump card on them. Others prefer to leave a feel of secrecy around their lists, as bluffing can make a game really entertaining. The choice is yours."

 

These are the relevant rules that direct what you have to reveal and how your models are presented to your opponent. It is not WAAC to follow the rules as they are presented.

 

Asking for squad composition when I have already told you what squad is embarked is going beyond the rules as written. When asked what squad is in a Rhino,

 

"A Grey Hunter pack."

 

Is completely legal and all that I am required to respond.

 

As long as you and your foe are happy to agree to play that way, yes, it is fine.

 

+++

 

Although I might say, what does GW mean when they say "which squads are embarked on which transport vehicle"?

They are talking in light of full disclosure ~ "To keep things fair, you should always allow your opponent to read your force roster after a game." Prefaced with "In the same spirit"

So are they merely saying 'tell the dude what type of squad it is' - ie, Grey Hunters.

or are they saying 'tell the dude what the squad is and what they are armed with' - ie the whole shebang.

 

I am not sure if you are saying you don't need to say that [the whole shebang bit] or whether you just need to say 'Grey hunters'....?

 

It reads to me that GW is saying 'the whole shebang bit' because it says 'in the same spirit' which references to full list disclosure of lists. If it is full list disclosure, it follows that unit identification would also be full disclosure.

 

Thoughts?

[Grimtooth]

What You See Is What You Get, page 47

 

"Character models in particular tend to have a lot of options as to what weapons and wargear they can use - given in the army list of their Codex. The rule is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model so you opponent can clearly see what they are facing. This concept is often referred to as WYSIWYG, which stands for 'what you see is what you get'.

 

Of course, many gamers enjoy trying out different combinations of wargear in different battles. So, if for example, a player might decide that for his next game a model's power sword will simply count as a close combat weapon, but he will also equip the model with melta bombs. While some tournaments may be more strict about this kind of thing, most opponents are happy to accommodate a small degree of one thing counting as another, so long as you explain exactly who has what at the start of the game."

 

A Note On Secrecy, page 92

"To keep things fair, you should always allow your opponent to read your force roster after a game. In the same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked on which transport vehicle. However, before starting to deploy their armies, it is a good idea for players to agree whether or not they can read the opponents roster before and during the game. Some players prefer full disclosure (which is the norm in tournaments, for example), as they want to concentrate on outmaneuvering the enemy rather than springing a secret trump card on them. Others prefer to leave a feel of secrecy around their lists, as bluffing can make a game really entertaining. The choice is yours."

 

These are the relevant rules that direct what you have to reveal and how your models are presented to your opponent. It is not WAAC to follow the rules as they are presented.

 

Asking for squad composition when I have already told you what squad is embarked is going beyond the rules as written. When asked what squad is in a Rhino,

 

"A Grey Hunter pack."

 

Is completely legal and all that I am required to respond.

 

As long as you and your foe are happy to agree to play that way, yes, it is fine.

 

+++

 

Although I might say, what does GW mean when they say "which squads are embarked on which transport vehicle"?

They are talking in light of full disclosure ~ "To keep things fair, you should always allow your opponent to read your force roster after a game." Prefaced with "In the same spirit"

So are they merely saying 'tell the dude what type of squad it is' - ie, Grey Hunters.

or are they saying 'tell the dude what the squad is and what they are armed with' - ie the whole shebang.

 

I am not sure if you are saying you don't need to say that [the whole shebang bit] or whether you just need to say 'Grey hunters'....?

 

It reads to me that GW is saying 'the whole shebang bit' because it says 'in the same spirit' which references to full list disclosure of lists. If it is full list disclosure, it follows that unit identification would also be full disclosure.

 

Thoughts?

 

I think that when the rule says,

 

"In the same spirit...."

 

They are refering to the,

 

"To keep things fair....", statement in the previous sentence.

 

So I read it as,

 

"To keep things fair that you should share your army list AFTER the game. In that same spirit of being fair, you need to make it clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in each transport."

 

So GW at first thinks that you don't even need to reveal your army list until AFTER the game with your only requirement being to inform your opponent which squads are in which transport. So this would be perfectly legit;

 

"Ok, I have Logan with some WGTDA in a LRR, one pack of WGTDA in a drop pod, two packs of GH in Rhinos, and two packs of Long Fangs in Razorbacks."

 

So after the above option GW then gives you the option to go full disclosure with the army list before the game and/or during instead of AFTER at which time your opponent would then be able to see the specific loadouts of the above-mentioned example army list, however you are still not compelled to divulge squad composition other then the list that you jave given him. So while he knows the squad ccompositions from the now shared army list you would not have to also say,

 

"Logan is with a pack of WGTDA in this LR and they are equipped with blah blah blah blah. The WGTDA pack in this drop pod is equipped with blah blah blah. The WGTDA pack in this drop pod are equipped with blah blah blah. Etc. Etc. Etc."

 

Even after sharing lists before or during a game as opposed to after, your opponent has no right to point at one of your transports and ask,

 

"What is the unit in that transport equipped with?"

 

All they are allowed to ask is,

 

"What unit is in that transport?"

 

And after your answer of,

 

"Grey Hunters."

 

He can't then ask,

 

"Which Grey Hunter pack?"

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i always thought getting banned from Dakka was kinda a point of honor.

 

that place is full of tools.

 

WLK

[Simo429]

I suppose it comes down to how you want to play the game.

 

People decry tournaments as WAAC but I know that if I ask an opponent just to remind me whats in a rhino on turn three they will happily do it as I will for them because its just seen as common courtesy. I don't see a great victory in your opponent forgetting whats in a vehicle and because of that making a serious error.