Brainstorming About the Role of Purifiers

[Ashe Darke]

Not necessarily, just make your opponent want to go for your other units more. My dreads tend to last longer because people shoot at the assassin or the rhinos or vice versa. Always stay in the vehicle, 2 transports with people holds better chances. I think the lack of side hatches on a Chimera means that the Rhino is best for assaulting after exiting a non-assault transport

[Joasht]

Not necessarily, just make your opponent want to go for your other units more. My dreads tend to last longer because people shoot at the assassin or the rhinos or vice versa. Always stay in the vehicle, 2 transports with people holds better chances. I think the lack of side hatches on a Chimera means that the Rhino is best for assaulting after exiting a non-assault transport

I'm also actually a fan of the Rhino, in part because of the side hatches, and also because Fortitude makes them slightly more reliable. Although, admittedly, the extra two slots (an an option to give the Librarian a ride) for the Chimera is pretty tempting.

[Ashe Darke]

Having to move most of the length of the tank seriously reduces your charge. Sure you could park parallel to their board edge or even present the rear but that's just asking for it.

 

I'm a bit concerned about there only being 1 tank but I guess if other tanks roll up with it, not necessarily filled with DCA, then they should be ok.

[Resv]

I still rather like Purifiers, when I first played with them I was incredibly impressed. However, as many have already said, they are an expensive unit in an already expensive army and finding a place to fit them in can be a real challenge. I have been trying them in many different combinations and I really haven't found one that works the best.

 

My current favorite though, in the 1750 or so area is 8 man squads with 2 Psycannons, Halberds, and maybe a Hammer in a Rhino. You do miss out on some extra fire power by not taking a smaller squad in a Razorback, but you do end up with a fairly robust unit. I usually take two of these units in addition to some Strike Squads and that has served me rather well so far as the core of my army. This set up also gives me a great place to stick Inquisitors or lately a Techmarine.

[number6]

This set up also gives me a great place to stick Inquisitors or lately a Techmarine.

How does the Techmarine get into your Rhino? :)

[Gentlemanloser]

Through the access point? :)

 

There's no restriciton on Servo Harnesses embarking Rhino's in the GK dex, is there?

[Valerian]

This set up also gives me a great place to stick Inquisitors or lately a Techmarine.

How does the Techmarine get into your Rhino? :huh:

 

Articifer Armour doesn't have the restrictions that TDA does. Why were you thinking that you couldn't?

 

V

[Joasht]

This set up also gives me a great place to stick Inquisitors or lately a Techmarine.

How does the Techmarine get into your Rhino? :blink:

 

Articifer Armour doesn't have the restrictions that TDA does. Why were you thinking that you couldn't?

 

V

I think number6 got confused because if I'm not wrong back in the 4th ed CSM anything with a servo harness couldn't enter a transport. Maybe. To be honest I never really bothered playing Techmarines in the past so my recollection of their finer rules is vague at best.

 

To be honest I'd imagine all those arms take up more space than TDA, but I did do a quick scan through the codex and saw nothing forbidding the entry of a Tech into any transport.

[number6]

I think number6 got confused because if I'm not wrong back in the 4th ed CSM anything with a servo harness couldn't enter a transport. Maybe.

Doh! Actually, I was thinking the GK Techmarine was wearing terminator armour. Not artificer armour. My bad! :cuss Move along! Nothing to see here.

[hattusa]

Purifiers are not good Troops choices for me. I like Strike squads as the core of the army. I dont like Purifiers as fire support, Purgators are better for that. But as close combat specialist troops, they are amazing. I think they are our best close combat troops and perhaps the best assault troops any Space Marine list has, maybe even better than Death Company and Berzerkers. Put them in a Land raider if you can afford it, drive as fast as you can and launch assaults from the Land Raider. Rhinos could be used if and Raiders are too expensive. I would not give them any ranged upgrades and keep all of their close combat weapons intact. An independent character in the squad is even a possibility, As for close combat weapon upgrades, I think upgrading the alreayd expensiveu ntis into lethal closecombat super marines is actually a good option. All halberds and one hammer is awesome.

[Something Wycked]

@ hattusa - I've come to the same conclusion myself. While playing with points costs, I've found that a similarly equipped Strike Squad will come in at least 35 points cheaper than Purifiers, and in the GK codex, every point matters. 35 points for 9 extra attacks is a bargain, but I don't intend for them to get into close combat if I'm throwing a bunch of Psycannons on the squad.

 

For me, Strike Squads with 2 Psycannons and Psybolts will fill the role that my 4 Psycannon Purifiers were originally intended for, and if I take Purifiers, they'll be kitted specifically for close combat.

[archangelCJ]

i have a purifier list now that i have played against Dark Eldar and Space Wolves now and they seem to work really well to me.

 

i run them like: (1,500 points FYI)

 

6x purifiers, 2 incinerators, hammer, assault cannon razorback with psybolts

6x purifiers, 2 incinerators, hammer, assault cannon razorback with psybolts

6x purifiers, 2 psycannons, hammer, lascannon razorback

6xpurifiers, 6 halberds, stormravet with mitli-melta & lascannon

 

each time i have used teh stormraven to capture forward objective early, guys in lascannon razorback secure rear objetive then frees up razorback to move crowe up into the fray, stopping to take a las shot where needed whilst teh guys in the assault cannon rozorbacks run arround the table screaming "KILL IT WITH FIRE!"

 

pluss with two psyrifle dreds backing them up form the rear this all works out pretty well. for me anyways

[breng77]

@ hattusa - I've come to the same conclusion myself. While playing with points costs, I've found that a similarly equipped Strike Squad will come in at least 35 points cheaper than Purifiers, and in the GK codex, every point matters. 35 points for 9 extra attacks is a bargain, but I don't intend for them to get into close combat if I'm throwing a bunch of Psycannons on the squad.

 

For me, Strike Squads with 2 Psycannons and Psybolts will fill the role that my 4 Psycannon Purifiers were originally intended for, and if I take Purifiers, they'll be kitted specifically for close combat.

 

The big difference in points is that you want Pruifiers for Fire support from a Rhino, you can run 5 with 2 Psycannons for only 140 points, to get those same Psycannons from a strike squad it will run you 220. If you want 2 psycannons Purifiers are your best option point for point.

[Something Wycked]

I'm not a fan of Rhinos. A stiff breeze makes them explode.

 

I'm also not a fan of small units- imo, maximizing boots on the ground is better than just putting as many psycannons down as possible.

 

But for a mech player, that would certainly be an effective way of doing it!

[Valerian]

For me this is relatively simple. If you can figure out how to get them the necessary/adequate mobility (via Stormraven or Land Raider, probably, since they are Assault Vehicles), then point-for-point, they have the best close-combat capability of any of the Grey Knights units. Terminator Squads have the same number of attacks per model (discounting a Banner), but are significantly more expensive. Purifiers have cheap Force weapon upgrades, as well as Cleansing Flame, too. Thus, they are a clear choice for a dedicated Assault Force, with one or two unit being all that are really required.

 

They don't shoot any better than any other units, so I wouldn't bother spending the points on them if all you are going to do is try and build them as Objective-holders, or what I call, Consolidation Forces. Sure, they can spam more Psycannon per Squad, but you can just as easily spam out Psycannon across multiple Strike Squads for the same effect, and probably save some points that you can use elsewhere in the army. Additionally, with both Deep Strike for Offensive maneuver, and Warp Quake, for Defending, Strike Squads are already better prepared to be the guys that sit on Objectives and just shoot, shoot, shoot. Purifiers can focus, instead, on gaining contact with enemy forces and assaulting at those critical points, or against those critical units, that will turn the tide of the battle.

 

Based on this, I'm giving my Purifiers two Incinerators (for free!), two Deamon Hammers, and the rest with Nemesis Halberds. They'll shoot on their way into a charge, of course, but their job will be to take down critical enemy units.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Thing is, you can actually cram more psycannon into your army, point for point, if you take Purifiers over Strikers. A quick comparison;

 

(2) Justicar, 2 x Knights w/psycannons, 7 x Knights

(220 points each)

 

vs

 

(2) Flame Knight, 2 x Purifiers w/psycannons, 2 x Purifiers

(140 points each)

 

The two Striker squads are 440, while the two Purifier squads are just 280. The obvious difference is that the Strikers have twice the bodies, and unlike Purifiers you don't need to buy them Rhinos (as they can Deepstrike).

 

So, in terms of point savings, Purifiers are actually much more efficient. In full squads they're much more formidable to take on in close-combat (even without halberd/hammer upgrades), and for MSU they're much more efficient. You do end up with less bodies, but those bodies are still sufficient (30 is usually what I am for as a strong core).

 

Purgation squads are stupidly overcosted and sit in the heavily-contested Heavy Support of the army, where you have cost-effective fire support from PsyDreads and the tank-hunting/interception of the greatsword+teleporter Dreadknight. While you still have Elite slots free for more Purifiers (not a hard choice, given their main competition are a Vindicare, a Tech-Marine or Paladins), Purgators are useless.

[Gentlemanloser]

RD beat me too it. :)

 

I almost 100% agree with Val's post, apart form the fact, as RD points out, Purifiers are also the best unit for spamming Psycanons for shooting.

 

This for me highlights the crappy internal balance fo the 'dex.

 

Prufiers are the best dedicated Assault unit in the Dex (GK unit, the best CC unit would be the DCA), while also being the best Shooting unit, (the only other unit that comes close is a 4 Psycannon Purgation Squad) depending on how you outfit them.

 

As much as no one wants to admit that Purifiers are the 'best' unit in the dex, there's very little to convince otherwise.

[number6]

That's a spiffy analysis, Valerian. <_< And I agree with just about everything except for what you say about psycannons. The psycannon is way too versatile to give up for any reason whatsoever. Incinerators may be free -- and are definitely worth taking in the role have have described -- but that doesn't mean you should avoid psycannons.

 

The one thing about incinerators is that, in many ways, it is redundant with Cleansing Flame. I would therefore never take more than 1 incinerator in any Purifier unit. You just don't need more than one. Remember that every special weapon you take costs you two NFW attacks (three on the charge!). There needs to be a damn good reason for giving that up in your dedicated assault unit. I can see taking one incinerator for extra oomph and horde-smashing backup in case your psychic powers are stuffed, but no more than that.

 

On the other hand, psycannons themselves are still cheap (if not any cheaper for Purifiers than other power-armoured units), but add a massive amount of versatility to the unit. If the purifier's ride gets popped, they have the ability to be that much more fearsome in the shooting phase. Psycannons are still assault weapons, so you can still shoot the thing to great effect into your target unit (along with your incinerator!) before charging. Most of the lesser Astartes take melta guns to help them slag transports before assaulting the occupants they strand by doing so. GKs don't have meltas, but they do have psycannons! You should take one -- if not two -- just for this purpose alone. It makes the unit self-contained and capable of acting independently when required.

 

In conclusion, if you're going to take incinerators with Purifiers, fine. But don't take more than one. And always take at least one psycannon, too. If you're taking a big unit -- say, 8-10 models -- I'd be tempted to take two psycannons and no incinerators at all!

 

All that said, the most special weapons I would consider taking on Puridiers would be 3, and only then if I had a full 10-man unit. Any less than that, and I wouldn't take more than 2 special weapons, one of which should definitely be a psycannon.

[Valerian]

RD beat me too it. ;)

 

I almost 100% agree with Val's post, apart form the fact, as RD points out, Purifiers are also the best unit for spamming Psycanons for shooting.

 

This for me highlights the crappy internal balance fo the 'dex.

 

Prufiers are the best dedicated Assault unit in the Dex (GK unit, the best CC unit would be the DCA), while also being the best Shooting unit, (the only other unit that comes close is a 4 Psycannon Purgation Squad) depending on how you outfit them.

 

As much as no one wants to admit that Purifiers are the 'best' unit in the dex, there's very little to convince otherwise.

 

I did that last post on the iPhone, so I may not have captured everything I wanted to about the points you and RD brought up as clearly as I intended. Purifiers certainly can spam Psycannon better than Strike squads, as they get to take twice as many, and pay the same price per, so there is no disadvantage. My point is more that Purifiers don't actually shoot any better than Strike squads; so, if you buy a 220 point Strike squad (10 guys with 2 Psycannon) whose task, generally, is to sit on an Objective and keep the enemy from taking it, you'll be saving points vice opting for a 260 point Purifier Squad armed the same way. For the Purifiers you are paying 40 extra points for close combat capability that you might not need in that unit, based on it's designated role within your army. Sure, the Purifiers can be significantly more effective in shooting over the Strike squad guys if they upgrade the two extra weapons (to a total of 4 Psycannon), but you might find that you don't actually need all 4 in the same squad, and could have spent the same points to put them elsewhere in the army.

 

Remember that for Marine armies, especially more expensive/elite armies, "spamming" Marine bodies with 3+ saves can be just as important as spamming our most effective special weapons.

 

As RD suggested, you can save points while getting the same amount of Psycannon shots by taking a Purifier Squad with 2 Psycannon, but only 5 men for 140. However, although Psycannon shots are the same, Storm Bolters shots are greatly reduced, and 5 men do not have the resiliency/staying power to hold an Objective that 10 Marines do.

[Valerian]

That's a spiffy analysis, Valerian. :tu: And I agree with just about everything except for what you say about psycannons. The psycannon is way too versatile to give up for any reason whatsoever. Incinerators may be free -- and are definitely worth taking in the role have have described -- but that doesn't mean you should avoid psycannons.

 

The one thing about incinerators is that, in many ways, it is redundant with Cleansing Flame. I would therefore never take more than 1 incinerator in any Purifier unit. You just don't need more than one. Remember that every special weapon you take costs you two NFW attacks (three on the charge!). There needs to be a damn good reason for giving that up in your dedicated assault unit. I can see taking one incinerator for extra oomph and horde-smashing backup in case your psychic powers are stuffed, but no more than that.

 

I don't normally mix special weapons in squads, which is probably why I shied away from mixing, but I think you may have changed my mind here. Two Incinerators might be overkill in a Purifier Squad, but I'm not sure. Adding a Psycannon instead, however doesn't cause me to forfeit much and you would gain some versatility for only 10 points. Both allow you to shoot and assault, too, so unlike Plasma guns, doesn't screw with their role as dedicated Assault Forces. I will definitely reconsider that aspect of it.

 

As to the rest of my earlier post, I think it is still valid that one or two Purifier Squads of at least 8 Marines are perfect as dedicated Assault Forces. These are the units that you attach heroes to (Independent Characters) and task to either "destroy that vital enemy unit", or to "seize that key piece of terrain". Strike squads are perfect for sitting on a piece of terrain and keeping the enemy from taking it from them. Except for not having Warp Quake, Purifiers could, certainly, do an even better job of this than the Strike Squads (just like a Wolf Guard pack could do a better job than a Grey Hunter pack) but you start to pay a premium on that additional capability that isn't usually justified. Since you are limited to 3 squads in the Elite FOC, there is little reason to use them in this way. You can opt to pay the Crowe tax to overcome that limitation, but then you lose an HQ slot, pay the extra 150 for Crowe, and now pay more points to get more capable units throughout your force that might not be necessary.

 

V

[number6]

As to the rest of my earlier post, I think it is still valid that one or two Purifier Squads of at least 8 Marines are perfect as dedicated Assault Forces. These are the units that you attach heroes to (Independent Characters) and task to either "destroy that vital enemy unit", or to "seize that key piece of terrain". Strike squads are perfect for sitting on a piece of terrain and keeping the enemy from taking it from them. Except for not having Warp Quake, Purifiers could, certainly, do an even better job of this than the Strike Squads (just like a Wolf Guard pack could do a better job than a Grey Hunter pack) but you start to pay a premium on that additional capability that isn't usually justified. Since you are limited to 3 squads in the Elite FOC, there is little reason to use them in this way. You can opt to pay the Crowe tax to overcome that limitation, but then you lose an HQ slot, pay the extra 150 for Crowe, and now pay more points to get more capable units throughout your force that might not be necessary.

Again, excellent analysis. ;) Keep it coming.

[Gentlemanloser]

If Warp Quake isn't going to be an issue (like you know the army you face won't have any Drop Pods/DS), then I feel that 5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons are just as good, if not better, at sitting on an objective than 10 Strikes with 2 Psycannons.

 

Especially if you're sitting both Squads in a Rhino, making the SB difference moot. ;)

 

Sitting units are prone to being Assaulted, and 5 Purifiers (with cheaper Halberds and Cleansing Flame) I feel will whether that better thab 10 strikes. With fearless meaning you don't run from the objective.

 

Plus, being cheaper (by 80 points), lets you have more toys elsewhere. :)

[CrimsonFury]

Purifier squads aren't the best psycannon spam per point, Purgation squads are. Even though they pay double for the cannons, they still end up cheaper per unit due to their ability to take 4 psycannons in a 5 man squad

 

Lets compare the points cost to get 4 psycannons for each power armoured GK squad (sorted from most to least expensive)

 

Interceptor squad: 560 (2x 10 man units with 2 psycannons)

Strike squad: 440 (2x 10 man units with 2 psycannons)

Purifier squad: 280 (1x 10 man unit with 4 psycannons)

Purgation squad: 180 (1x 5 man unit with 4 psycannons)

 

Even if the Purgation squad was 10 man to give them some ablative wounds, they still tie with Purifier squads on points cost. The astral aim power can also benefit them in shooting. The downside is they aren't as good at melee and don't have a hero that makes them troops. (you can still make a couple troops via Grand Master). They work best as static firesupport in LOS blocking cover to make use of their astral aim and maximise shot count. A single stationary unit can put out 16 Psycannon shots!.

 

That said I still think purifiers make the best core of a GK PA army since they are the most flexible unit that can be taken as troops.

 

@number6 I disagree about only taking 1 incinerator in a Purifier squad. 3 force weapon attacks against an average MEQ opponent = 0.75 wounds (no saves). Incinerators will get at least 4 auto hits each even vs small MEQ units (you can overlap the 2nd+ template to hit the same enemies vs small units) Against MEQ thats 1.11 unsaved wounds per incinerator. against horde armies with alot more hits and no armour sives the amount of wounds gets incanse. The only case where the force weapon is likely to inflict more unsaved wounds is against very heavy infantry units like terminators (large bases and small unit size means less hits per template, combined with 2+ saves = not many unsaved wounds). Therefore if I was taking incinerators in a purifier squad I would always take at least 2. With 10 man squads I would sometimes take more.

 

For an 1800 point list I would go for something like this:

 

HQ

1x Castellan Crowe = 150

1x Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with: Rad grenades, 3x servo skulls, Psychic communion + force sword, Power armour, Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon = 97

 

Elites

 

Henchmen Warband: 6x Warrior Acolytes + 3 melta guns = 54

 

Troops

 

2x 6 man Purifier squad with: 2x incinerators, 1x daemon hammer, 3x halberds = 155 each x2 = 310

 

2x 6 man Purifier squad with: 2x Psycannons, 1x daemon hammer, 3x halberds = 175 each x2 = 350

 

1x 5 man Purifier squad with: 1x daemon hammer, 4x halberds = 133

 

6x Razorbacks with twin heavy bolter + psybolts = 50 each x3 = 300

 

Heavy Support

 

3x Rifleman dread with psybolts 135 each x3 = 405

 

Total = 1799

[Valerian]

@Crimson, note that a Grand Master cannot make Purgators Troops, he can only make them Scoring. This is an important distinction when you've already got plans for your Heavy Support slots.

 

V

[Valerian]

If Warp Quake isn't going to be an issue (like you know the army you face won't have any Drop Pods/DS), then I feel that 5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons are just as good, if not better, at sitting on an objective than 10 Strikes with 2 Psycannons.

 

Especially if you're sitting both Squads in a Rhino, making the SB difference moot. ;)

 

Sitting units are prone to being Assaulted, and 5 Purifiers (with cheaper Halberds and Cleansing Flame) I feel will whether that better thab 10 strikes. With fearless meaning you don't run from the objective.

 

Plus, being cheaper (by 80 points), lets you have more toys elsewhere. ;)

 

Yes, you can spend those 80 points to pay off half of your Crowe tax :)

 

I just wish Ward could have just given our Strike Squads the Purifier stats and called it a day. They would have more like our old 3rd edition Elite version of PAGK, and I would have happily paid 25 points per model, allowing me to still take a GM and a Librarian if I wanted to. Oh well, maybe in 2021.

 

V