Throne of Skulls report

[Captain Idaho]

Greetings everyone. April 16th I attended the Throne of Skulls 40K tournament with my 5th Company Ultramarines and had came so close to topping the Space Marines category!

 

For those who haven't been following the buzz around the new format of the ToS GW have introduced, the tournament requires a healthy mix between winning and being a pleasant individual to top the tables. In addition to the usual 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw and 0 for a loss; everyone gets 1 point for attending, 3 points for two nominations for being a favourite opponent, 5 for three nominations etc.

 

The people with the most points top their army category (like top Space Marines player etc) and then all the top players' scores are compared with the average of their race and the player with the highest difference wins overall.

 

Now, the usual moaners criticise the format, but what this actually does is encourage players to be fun to play against, build a list which isn't massed cheese (who will nominate a guy who wipes you out within the first 2 turns with a cheesey Imperial Guard list) and the players who do well with an army which over all does poorly then they deserve to win over all rather than said Imperial Guard players who ALL do well.

 

Anyway, there is the background, here is my list:

 

HQ

 

Chapter Master

- Relic Blade

- Storm Shield

- Digital weapons

= 180pts

 

 

Honour Guard

- +2 Additional Honour Guard

- Chapter Banner

- Relic Blade and combat blade on the Chapter Champion

= 225pts

 

Mounted in a Razorback

= 40pts

 

 

ELITES

 

Dreadnought

- Assault Cannon

- Twin Linked Autocannon

= 125pts

 

 

TROOPS

 

Tactical squad

- Melta gun

- Plasma Cannon

- Sergeant has a bolt pistol and CCW

= 180pts

 

Mounted in a Rhino

= 35pts

 

 

Tactical squad

- Plasma gun

- Lascannon

- Sergeant has a Bolter

= 190pts

 

Mounted in a Rhino

- Additional Storm Bolter

= 45pts

 

 

Tactical squad (Objective campers)

- Plasma Gun

- Lascannon

- Sergeant has a Bolter

= 190pts

 

 

FAST ATTACK

 

Landspeeder Typhoon squadron

- 2x Landspeeders

= 180pts

 

 

Landspeeder

- Multi-melta

= 60pts

 

 

Attack Bike

- Multi-melta

= 50pts

 

Total = 1,500pts

 

The list does lack heavy armour but otherwise does everything I really need to do on the table, except maybe deep striking far away objectives. The only real weaknesses is in Kill Points games, with several cheap KPs up for grabs for my opponent from all the light vehicles.

 

Anyway, onto the games for a quick run down. I wont name any names to protect the innocent:

 

Game 1 - Orks

 

List was roughly:

 

Warboss - Warbike and PK

Wazzdakka (whatever his name is!)

Ork Nobz - assorted nastiness

5x 6 Ork Warbikers

 

Unfortunately for me the first game was Dawn of War and Kill Points so I was worried immediately! Early fire from me was sporadic and I made the mistake of deploying the Landspeeder and attack bike on the table. The Warbikes punished my transports and Landspeeders, giving my opponent a 4-0 KP advantage by turn 3!

 

However I made a come back in style! The counter attack from the Honour Guard killed off the Nobz and Warboss, then proceded to roll up the enemy army and killed off 3 more units of Warbikers for a single loss. For some reason my firepower sucked and Wazzdakka survived with a single wound and there were 3 Warbikers running away from army.

 

Last turn saw my opponent score 2 wounds on a Tactical squad from Wazzdakka (he can turbo boost and fire you know) and I failed both saves. No bother I thought, until I failed the leadership test with a roll of 11 and rolled another 11 for the Chapter Banner re-roll. Turn 5 saw the end of the game with no chance to ralley which resulted in a draw!

 

I was gutted to say the least. The opponent had hideous luck and passed so many cover saves (warbikers get a cover save standard) and everything went right for him despite my firepower failing to finish his last 4 models on the board.

 

However - The poor opponent had failed to pay the points for an Ork Nob first when selecting the Pain Boy, so the draw was over turned to a victory. This was justice to me (and torture for my opponent) and I felt balance was being restored from lady luck. It could be argued that I didn't deserve to win like that, and it's true I didn't fire at the Nobz aside from AP2 weapons, but that's because of the Painboy and power klaws everywhere. I could have played differently otherwise, of course.

 

Man of the Match - Honour Guard blatted the enemy army and won the game for me. Honourable mention goes to the Dreadnought, who killed off plenty of Orks from a safe distance.

 

 

******************

 

Game 2 - Black Templars

 

List was roughly:

 

The Emperor's Champion - Preferred enemy for everyone!

2x 10 Crusaders

2x Landraiders

2x Terminators with Tank Hunters and 2x assault cannons each

 

Game went like a charm! Orbital Bombardment destroyed a Landraider turn 1. My opponent concentrated on my support vehicles, killing off the Dreadnought early and all my Landspeeders, the Attack bike and my Transports. However, they Honour Guard killed 5 Terminators and the Emperor's Champion and his mates whilst my Tactical marines finished off the other Terminators.

 

Won this game comfortably 3 Objectives to 1 (I think? Could have been 2-0?). Was gutted I didn't manage to open up the other Landraider, but luck swings that way eh.

 

*****************************

 

Game 3 - Blood Angels

 

This list was scary. 3 Combi-Predators, 20 Assault Marines, Sanguinary Priest and Librarian with jump packs, 3 units of 3 Attack Bikes all with Multi-meltas and a 5 man objective camper in a Razorback. A combination of Spearhead and Capture and Control meant neither side was likely to cut through to the other's objective.

 

If I'm honest the game wasn't enjoyable. The opponent took 45minutes to deploy and by the time we had finished turn 1 my mate Graham had finished his turn 5! There were some issues but I let them drop because I knew I wouldn't lose the game and I realistically was never going to take that objective as well as securing my own.

 

Anyway, the whole army was clumped together aside from the Predators to take advantage of the Shield of Sanguinius and Feel No Pain upgrades, which was boring frankly. The Honour Guard tore apart his attack decisively, killing 10 Marines and the Librarian before being shot dead by the whole enemy army. In return I killed everything apart from the Sanguinary Priest and 3 Attack Bikers, but their last attack on the objective ended with me killing the Apothercary and locking the lucky Attack Bikers in assault.

 

Draw.

 

Incidently, the player was disqualified in his last game for cheating/unsportingly behaviour. Make of that what you will, though I must say I actually got on well with him.

 

*******************

 

Game 4 - Grey Knights

 

Roughly the following:

 

Grand Master

7x Purifiers

10 Strike Squad GKs in a Rhino

5 Terminators

Stormraven

Dreadnought - Plasma Cannon

Dreadnought - twin Autocannons and pysbolts

Dreadknight

 

Seize Ground with Dawn of War. My opponent seemed to be living a charmed existance this game! I got 3 Penetrating hits from the Dreadnought on his Stormraven in my opening turn yet he made every save. All my fire just pattered off his super cover save of 4+ which wasted alot of my opening fire. Gutting really, but I did manage to down the :whistling: with orbital bombardment. Next turn I killed 3 of the Purifiers and the Dreadnought who were inside the Stormraven but for the next three turns I just couldn't destroy anything!

 

My Typhoons opened up the Rhino but were shot down in reply, but this was the opening I needed for the Honour Guard to assault the Strike Squad, killing them all for 3 losses. Unfortunately for me, the 2 losses of the Tactical squad was the Melta Gun and Plasma Cannon (that's right, 11 wounds out of 13 hits!) so I couldn't destroy the Dreadnought lurking back there. Fortunately for me my opponent was so caught up making his cover saves on my side of the table that he forget to move it and was an inch away from the objective when I assaulted it to prevent it contesting the objective.

 

I won with 1 objective to 0 since I contested all of his objectives, though really I would have felt robbed if I didn't win since my opponent was so jammy with his saves. The Dreadknight itself passed 4 invulnerable saves and it took me all game to kill those Purifiers and just 2 Terminators!

 

Honourable mention goes to the opponent who won best army and best Grey Knight player, which was a pleasure to face.

 

**********

 

Game 5 - Tyranids

 

I fancied my chances initially but I made a big mistake with the choice of deployment zone and chose the open terrain side thinking my opponent would be coming for me, with the other side of the table being area terrain. Normally not a problem with an Tyranid opponent but here we are with someone who had a list with 9 Hive Guard a Tyrannofex and all Tyranid Warrior army! Big mistake in KP games!

 

Oh well. My fire was so poor and my opponent took all the soft KPs like a pro. He thoroughly deserved to win really! But the guy was a pleasure to play, he really was. He won my favourite opponent award despite beating me, as his army was pretty fluff too. He refused to take 2 Trygons for example, taking a Mawloc just for coolness factor and was a gentleman throughout.

 

I lost 7-3 after getting desparate at the end and through away 2 KPs to try and win back the game late, but really knew it wouldn't work. The Honour Guard did poorly, only putting 4 wounds on the Mawloc (a single wound from the Master and Champion each!) and were overwhelmed by lash whips and bone swords.

 

Summary

 

The tournament was awesome! I met so many great people I had a real laugh with and hopefully will see them all again at the next ToS. There was an element of disappointment when I was the top Marines player until losing game 5, especially as the 2 rivals were pitted against each other game 5 with the winner certain to come top.

 

That was bad luck!

 

Incidently, AdamR was also unlucky to narrowly lose to the other guy who topped the Marines table in game 5, and as a friend and member on the B&C I was gutted he didn't take it. After all, if I can't win why not him?

 

Still, that's the way of the cooky and it's crumbling ways. I came 14th over all, with no extra points for best opponent (must be a :P then eh!), so I think that is pretty good.

 

The Honour Guard are awesome! They smashed most opponents aside and were a real trump card for me. The Dreadnought was great also, putting alot of hits on everything though did suck laser a couple times.

 

My next list will be the same with the addition of a Vindicator and Dreadnought with Lascannon and powerfist since the next ToS I'm going to (October) will be 1,750pts.

 

Hopefully I can take it home for the Ultramarines next time!

[greatcrusade08]

sounds like you had a good time, i was made up to hear sgt campbell won overall with sisters of all things.. soounds like the fun is being pumped back into tournaments..

out with WAAC and in with the friendly gamers.. its good to see

 

congrats on your placing, 14th is very respectable considering the numbers (what was it 70 ish?)

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Good to see the report & well done on doing well on the gaming front. Shown everone how to use Honour Guards properly & to great effect ;)

 

I came 14th over all, with no extra points for best opponent (must be a then eh!), so I think that is pretty good.

 

Must have been from the Nov incident & what happen after that ;) Or Did you turn left instead of right on the parade ground? Forget to say your prayers in the morning? ;) (ment as a bit of banter since I know Captain Idaho).

 

It is a shame that we can only pick one oppent out of the whole event. Like you I had brillaint games, all five rounds where great & I would happily give them good mark. For me in all about the attuide of the oppent not there army. There money, there army, as long as it look cool & there great sport :P

 

It was good you where very close to the Best Space Marine player & you shown people that Honour Guards are brillaint. Scott keep commented about them after your practise game on the Fri night saying how he found them hard to take apart.

 

I am also with you in regard to the change. It is nice to see a great mix of armies & that I not had to fight the only Tau player. I fought Nids for the first time in the UKGT scene, while Nov was the first time ever battle Imperial Guards in a tournament setting by GW. Same with Chaos Daemons back in Nov ToS.

Like wise we also saw stuff like Graham Sister of Battle as well.

So as said a good mix of armies though out the event.

 

My next list will be the same with the addition of a Vindicator and Dreadnought with Lascannon and powerfist since the next ToS I'm going to (October) will be 1,750pts.

 

Suprise your not taken a Land raider again for your Honour Guards :tu: How did you find your army overall then, was there anything you would have swap or drop??

 

Should be good the Oct ToS & with the pts rise. As said in the ToS July topic unsure for Oct IW or Space Wolves.

 

 

Game 5 - Tyranids

 

I fancied my chances initially but I made a big mistake with the choice of deployment zone and chose the open terrain side thinking my opponent would be coming for me, with the other side of the table being area terrain. Normally not a problem with an Tyranid opponent but here we are with someone who had a list with 9 Hive Guard a Tyrannofex and all Tyranid Warrior army! Big mistake in KP games!

 

Oh well. My fire was so poor and my opponent took all the soft KPs like a pro. He thoroughly deserved to win really! But the guy was a pleasure to play, he really was. He won my favourite opponent award despite beating me, as his army was pretty fluff too. He refused to take 2 Trygons for example, taking a Mawloc just for coolness factor and was a gentleman throughout.

 

I lost 7-3 after getting desparate at the end and through away 2 KPs to try and win back the game late, but really knew it wouldn't work. The Honour Guard did poorly, only putting 4 wounds on the Mawloc (a single wound from the Master and Champion each!) and were overwhelmed by lash whips and bone swords.

 

Just wanted to ask what this oppent name was?? I know Andy who I fought in Round 3 was near the top tables & ended up winning best Nids player after it was found out he was higher than the Kroot player (count as Nids).

 

IP

[Captain Idaho]

The guy in game 5 was called Stefan and worked for GW I believe. He was a great guy and deserved the win.

 

Suprise your not taken a Land raider again for your Honour Guards How did you find your army overall then, was there anything you would have swap or drop??

 

Should be good the Oct ToS & with the pts rise. As said in the ToS July topic unsure for Oct IW or Space Wolves.

 

Nah, no Landraider for me. It's a big target for the army. I would much prefer a S10 pie template and another Lascannon plus the target saturation they bring.

 

You should definitely bring Space Wolves since they are so much fun for you, but then you need to get another army in the cabinet for your painting and it would be nice to see Iron Warriors in there for a change. Are you a little bored of SW since you took them last time and will be taking them for this July also?

 

congrats on your placing, 14th is very respectable considering the numbers (what was it 70 ish?)

 

Actually it is around 135-140 I believe. Which makes any top 20 postings high IMHO.

 

Oh yeah I forgot to say:

 

Learning points

 

I will be reserving the single fast-melta unit in KP games more often, as well as Deep Striking the Landspeeder with Multi-Melta more often so I can get a shot off at heavy armour hiding at the back. I will also be dismounting the Tacticals when hanging back much more often, hiding the Rhinos away to protect KPs. This will go a long way to making the army more difficult to face in Annhilation games.

 

I also will make sure my deployment is stronger, particularly in the last game I reckon I lost because of it. A Vindicator would have went some way to even the odds in that game too.

 

@ GC08: have you conviced your missus you can come to the October ToS yet? I hope you do, would be awesome to see your Scouts there kicking teeth in when people underestimate them!

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

You should definitely bring Space Wolves since they are so much fun for you, but then you need to get another army in the cabinet for your painting and it would be nice to see Iron Warriors in there for a change. Are you a little bored of SW since you took them last time and will be taking them for this July also?

 

I enjoy my Space Wolves. They became top favrout army along with my Iron Warriors, as why bit of a hard choose. Also 1750pts allow new stuff. I use my IW in GT 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 & a few local tournament in 2006, 08, 09, as said I been collecting them for almost ten years now. So if it a army I really care about like Iron Warriors & Space Wolves, it take a lot for me to become bored with them, since I put a lot of time into converted each & ever single model.

 

While I have other quick armies I tend to use in friendly games or play GW specil games to break it up some time so it never a issue.

 

Ether way ether army dose not sit around, as said lot of work due to new conversion idea or because people break them :P

 

Like wise when ever Black Templars are release, they will not dout reach the same leval as my IW & SW.

 

Just as said I enjoy both armies. Both offer diffrent thing. Both have a lot of honour & glory under there names now.

 

Actually it is around 135-140 I believe. Which makes any top 20 postings high IMHO.

 

48 tables where in use so time by two. But as Captain Idaho point out from round 3 & then I heard a few people had to drop out on Sunday due to personial stuff I think. Just table 48 as that where my friend Scott started on the Sunday moring, he was not to happy about this.

 

Nah, no Landraider for me. It's a big target for the army. I would much prefer a S10 pie template and another Lascannon plus the target saturation they bring.

 

Fair point. Also Vindacators in one object each you can bring on from reserve & let it blast away any units near by.

 

How did you find ToS April compaired to ToS Nov then?? As said April was perfect, Nov was good but it nice they take in the feedback & change it after. Also that the event team rolled for mission as well. When I heard Kill point in Round 1 I knew it was a good Omen for me.

I take it for Oct ToS you will be aim for the best Space Marine player?

 

Forgot to say a great report you have there. It good to have the tournament report as somthing to look back on to learn, rememeber, etc... for future games & just in general to rememeber the brillaint weekend. As said ToS April was perfect for me in all respect.

 

@ GC08: have you conviced your missus you can come to the October ToS yet? I hope you do, would be awesome to see your Scouts there kicking teeth in when people underestimate them!

 

Yep, you can not let Captain Idaho be the only one looking for Glory under the Ultramarines banner ;) Think what it would be like if he did get best Space Marine player :P

IP

[greatcrusade08]

congrats on your placing, 14th is very respectable considering the numbers (what was it 70 ish?)

 

Actually it is around 135-140 I believe. Which makes any top 20 postings high IMHO.

 

Wow doubly as good :tu:

 

@ GC08: have you conviced your missus you can come to the October ToS yet? I hope you do, would be awesome to see your Scouts there kicking teeth in when people underestimate them!

My wife has finally agreed to let me attend ToS, however as my luck goes the oct event is the weekend of my daughters birthday... my wife has already planned her party for that weekend and doesnt want me to miss it..

IIRC oct is the last event of the year so instead she wants me to pick a date for early next year.. lemme know which ones you guys are going to and ill book early to avoid any clashes

[sgt campbell]

Mate was well gutted you lost that last game, It would have been amazing for us to come first and second just shows all that practice and list tinkering does work!!

 

I'm up for November think the Templars might need dusting of but am tempted to try for best sisters player again! And I might actualy paint them properly!!

 

Maybe a drop pod dread or some typhoons would be better than the vindicator as having only one av 13 hull will be the first target for most armies big guns!!

[Captain Idaho]

I was a little disappointed I missed out on the top spot but had such a good time this year so it weren't so bad! I want to go this October. <_<

 

I could use a Drop pod Iron Clad in the list to attack those horrible unreachable objectives. Thing is that requires more models to buy! I have got a third Dreadnought and also a Vindicator for no additional cost so I might just got conservative. Besides, a S10 pie template O' doom is awesome to either put in reserve for a quick blast when it comes on or take the hits instead of the Rhinos. And let's not forget those AV14 vehicles and Halberd wielding Terminators I want to kill at range!

[DarkGuard]

The sole Vindicator at 1750pts works well. Mine yesterday only lasted two turns, but took down a Land Raider before then being taken out by my opponent's Vindicator. Even then it helped as it exposed the rear armour with my melta Speeders took advantage of. For 120pts you're not really expecting it to do much damage, instead you've got other units to do that. Instead you're using it to protect an objective, or more likely to simply act as a fire magnet, drawing fire away from your more vulnerable Rhinos with your important units. Of course, if you find it doesn't work too well then an Ironclad in Drop Pod could be lots of fun, chucking it next to Land Raiders before they move, or onto objectives and making your opponent have to turn around to deal with it.

 

Again congrats on your placement in the tournament, you've done really well.

[waaanial00]

What is it with you Idaho, last time you played the Ork player of gimpness this time you appear to have played a similar dude with a Blood Angels army. How is it that you get lumbered with these idiots?

 

Look forwards to seeing you gents on Saturday. Just got to make sure that I am not going to get dragged into the office, hate it when something really bad happens 2 days before a busy weekend - especially when your new manager comes across and tells you that you are managing the situation ^_^

[Thantoes]

Look forwards to seeing you gents on Saturday. Just got to make sure that I am not going to get dragged into the office, hate it when something really bad happens 2 days before a busy weekend - especially when your new manager comes across and tells you that you are managing the situation :(

 

Army is prepped. Last minute rebuilding of models completed. All in readiness. Looking forward to the action :D

[Captain Idaho]

What is it with you Idaho, last time you played the Ork player of gimpness this time you appear to have played a similar dude with a Blood Angels army. How is it that you get lumbered with these idiots?

 

:D

 

Well there was quite a bit of commotion surrounding the Imperial Guard player and that Blood Angels dude in game 5 so it wasn't just me I guess! But yeah, I'm a magnet...

 

Looking forward to taking the core of this list on Saturday. Hopefully will have some success...

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

What is it with you Idaho, last time you played the Ork player of gimpness this time you appear to have played a similar dude with a Blood Angels army. How is it that you get lumbered with these idiots?

 

Look forwards to seeing you gents on Saturday. Just got to make sure that I am not going to get dragged into the office, hate it when something really bad happens 2 days before a busy weekend - especially when your new manager comes across and tells you that you are managing the situation :D

 

Not just that, but also Captain Idaho buy ticket. Twice he miss out (GT last year & year before) but then mange to get some last min ether from Mail order or a memeber from another fourm. Which remind me, 6th July for Oct ticket ;) Also 2008 he forgotten his ticket, but luck sign in advance/before the event.

 

Also chosen to go with SW, just made some Long Fangs, for the 20pts spare just going to go for a extra Long Fang with Heavy Bolter for the range now.

 

Take it the Ultra-mate this weekend?? If you not try Bugman bar breakfast, it one of the best I had. Though would preffer bacon to be crispy, ask them next time I am down.

 

IP

[greatcrusade08]

Look forwards to seeing you gents on Saturday.

 

definately, ive prepped as much as i can... gotta keep chanting, "take pinning tests" and "plant cluster mines" so i dont forget on the day..

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Look forwards to seeing you gents on Saturday.

 

definately, ive prepped as much as i can... gotta keep chanting, "take pinning tests" and "plant cluster mines" so i dont forget on the day..

 

I find writing a little "hot sheet" is a handy thing. I use it when playing Blood Bowl online, and it saves me from repeating mistakes. It can be small [as long as you can write small and legibly, lol] or just be keywords, and you can have it in your pocket and reference it during Deployment, in his turn, etc.

 

Nerdy but effective.

 

No sense getting caught out by BELing Wolf scouts or whatever, when it is entirely avoidable. :huh:

[greatcrusade08]

I find writing a little "hot sheet" is a handy thing. I use it when playing Blood Bowl online, and it saves me from repeating mistakes. It can be small [as long as you can write small and legibly, lol] or just be keywords, and you can have it in your pocket and reference it during Deployment, in his turn, etc.

 

Nerdy but effective.

 

its a good idea.. i have to take a notepad for the cluster mines anyway, so may aswell write on the first page..

[Marshal Wilhelm]

HQ

 

Chapter Master

- Relic Blade

- Storm Shield

- Digital weapons

= 180pts

 

 

Honour Guard

- +2 Additional Honour Guard

- Chapter Banner

- Relic Blade and combat blade on the Chapter Champion

= 225pts

 

Mounted in a Razorback

= 40pts

 

 

ELITES

 

Dreadnought

- Assault Cannon

- Twin Linked Autocannon

= 125pts

 

 

I have some questions for your list Idaho. :P

I am a convert to the 3++ and YTTH way of playing, yet have remained open enough to some hybrid or mongrel units, or units that have a bad rep in terms of efficiency, to not dis and dismiss them. But I do need them explained to me, or see them in action, as my intuition says 'bad' unit is bad. For example, I still don't think GC08's Scout army is a great one, but more that he is a canny general and his foes dis and dismiss his list. That is not to rain on GC08's parade, that is just my honest appraisal of what is happening :D

Okay list + good general + arrogance from foe = Okay -> Good -> Very good, on table performance.

I'd not write his list off, even though I don't think it is an optimal one. therefore some of the sting is lost. Also, his list plays in a different style and so wrong foot's his opponent through lack of familiarity with playing against them. Fritz enjoyed hero status, from what I understand, until people "got" what he was up to. Now I'm sure he is still is a very good general, but his novelty is lost, especially given his internet air time.

 

Anyway, onto the list:

 

The Master, does he hang out with the Honour Guard?

 

The Honour Guard seem to get you a few scalps. Yet they are aboard a Razorback. How do you use them?

 

The Dreadnought has a long and a short weapon. Why is it so? ;)

 

Hopefully my post isn't abrasive. I just don't understand and am cutting to the chase.

[greatcrusade08]

Hopefully my post isn't abrasive. I just don't understand and am cutting to the chase.

 

not at all, my list contains sub-optimal units in terms of upper end competativeness.. (bolter scouts for example)

i would honestly say its a competative army but not a top tier tournament army.

 

i win becuase its a niche army with a unique playstyle, people underestimate or are unfamiliar with it.. my more familiar competative opponents (see thantoes) usually know my tricks and make it very hard for me.. still i never balk from a challenge.

i do however have a few very good units in my army, that work well within that playstyle, my t-fires seem tailor made to work with scouts and for some reason do very well for me..

its all about the unit combos too

 

btw whos fritz?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Hopefully my post isn't abrasive. I just don't understand and am cutting to the chase.

 

not at all, my list contains sub-optimal units in terms of upper end competativeness.. (bolter scouts for example)

i would honestly say its a competative army but not a top tier tournament army.

 

i win becuase its a niche army with a unique playstyle, people underestimate or are unfamiliar with it.. my more familiar competative opponents (see thantoes) usually know my tricks and make it very hard for me.. still i never balk from a challenge.

i do however have a few very good units in my army, that work well within that playstyle, my t-fires seem tailor made to work with scouts and for some reason do very well for me..

its all about the unit combos too

 

btw whos fritz?

 

Cool :)

 

Fritz is the dude from 'Way of Saim-Hann' who, as far as I know, started, or at least made famous, the Jetbike heavy list, etc. So instead of the Aspect Warrior list, he had this super speedy and mobile approach that left Gunline generals confounded.

 

This is his blog: Way of Saim Hann

 

It used to be just on Eldar, but he has diversified as playing one style has grown stale for him, I guess. I think his 'revolutionary' material was back when he played only as Eldar, so it is the older stuff.

 

Some dudes, who I respect, seem to esteem him highly. I guess because they witnessed the transition from Gunline to a more mobile style of play. Nothing in his blog makes me think 'WOW' but I was playing myself and my brother for a long time and only came online in '09.

So I guess how a kid from today thinks dial-phones are nothing special when they are playing with their iWonder, if you catch my drift? Fritz's tactics don't seem amazing to me, but when I came online, it had become normalised.

[DarkGuard]

While I am not Captain Idaho myself, I am a recent convert to the "Idaho patter" Honour squad, shown above. The only difference is that I stick mine in a Rhino, mainly for OB from top hatch when needed, and the fact that I no longer have a heavy bolter Razorback, and only have las plas/asscan ones, meaning I don't have the points for it.

 

Anyway, in my far more limited gaming experience with Honour Guard, I've played them as a counter-assault unit, using them to combat any potential threats to my midfield Tactical squads. Then, when need dictates, I will send them after objective squad etc, provided they have the steam to get there. I also try to keep them near the centre of my army to get the most out of the banner's morale aura, already it's saved my squads from an untimely pinning check.

 

The Master hangs out with the Honour Guard, and it is vital he does. This isn't so much for the 5 additional relic blade attacks on the charge, but rather his initiative and storm shield. With his I5 relic blade attacks he can reduce the incoming strikes towards the Honour Guard. Furthermore, the storm shield is vital to their success. The thing is that Honour Guard are not Assault Terminators, they cannot take power weapons to the face and survive. Therefore, they generally go after non power weapon and/or slow units with weak defence in combat, so things like Tactical squads, Ork Boyz, even small Tactical Terminator squads, as Idaho has suggested in his report. However, many of these squads will still have a power weapon of some kind, normally on the Sergeant, or have an IC attached. It is the Master's job to engage these units base to base, therefore forcing them to hit him with the power weapon, against his invulnerable save. With multi-wounds and 3++ he can take a few power weapon swings while the Honour Guard survive and power through the unit.

 

As for the Razorback/Rhino debate, you use them with more care than a Raider. The Raider in truth seems better suited for this squad, with it being able to move 12", disembark 2" and assault 6". However, it's a big piece of kit, and likely to attract a lot of attention. Furthermore, while tough, it is 250pts+. When you're already paying 170pts for your Master, and 225pts for your Honour Guard, people are already asking why you aren't taking Assault Terminators and a Libby, especially when in a Raider. Such an option would cost around 550pts rather than 645pts, nearly 100pts difference! But this is why the Rhino is taken. It brings the cost of fielding the unit down to 465pts or so, so it's nearly 100pts in the other direction. Furthermore, it's easier to hide, and when running lots of mech (I know I do) is protected by target saturation. If you keep it in the middle of your army then it'll be hard for your opponent to get to it easily. As for assaulting out of it, you just need to think ahead, and position it in places where you can get that 14" charge range. And 14" is still pretty big, you just need to be careful and pick your targets well in advance.

 

I hope that's answered some questions. Of course, like I said, I'm not Idaho, but hopefully that'll help until the real expert comes along.

[Captain Idaho]

DarkGuard has a good grasp of how I play Honour Guard, but I will put a more detailed report up tomorrow most likely, since I am just plain exhausted from the ASMOH tournament I just came back from, so want to have a cleaer head when I post up an explanation.

 

And you were perfectly polite so no worries.

 

Oh yeah, I put my learning points to good use today, with some good results today in the tournament. Infact I was a little unlucky in my first game and reckon I could have had a better result (I lost that game as it turned out) and the last game I played could really have swung either way (a hard earned draw and a great game that really was an epic which swung one way to the other).

 

So I'm feeling good about the list right now...

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Okay, this is what I don't get. It might be something like what GC08 does with his Scouts, in that people are inexperienced with them, the Honour Guard.

 

HG are 'softer' than Hammernators. Rhino chassis are softer than LR.

 

Your foe knows you have 400ish points of power weapon goodness in a tin can. Why on earth don't they shoot that into tomorrow?

 

I run two Rhino squads of Crusaders with Mg and PF. 6 in each squad are Initiates, and the rest are Neophytes, except for the Emperor's Champion. I regularly get charges off with them. But the Crusaders are not as vicious as the HG and are only some 150ish points. This means they are much less of a 'shoot it, aaarrgh!' unit as the HG. Less threat means more freedom.

 

GC08 has said that his regular foes are wise to his tricks, which really restricts his freedom. But against fresh foes, he wins a lot. Is this somewhat the case with the HG?

Dudes haven't face them, so are naive to them.

The internet says HG are less good than Hammernators [though don't take into account that you must take a LR or be on foot....] and so doesn't take them seriously [which is a massive mistake of any unit, imo]

Against regular foes, do the HG enjoy something like the success they do against fresh foes?

 

Now I am not trying to be mean :) , but if you are trading off of your foe being 'complacent' then I want to know so that when someone isn't complacent, are the HG just going to get creamed and lots of points are lost in one foul swoop?

 

I might be able to replicate the HG with PA Sword Brethren or Command Squad, but want some clues first. :)

 

+++

 

Adam, from the Space Wolves blog, used a pack of Wolf Guard Terminators, with combi~ and power~weapons, to great effect. They were his ace in the hole unit, and he used them to counter-punch his enemies l33t units, rather than rushing like a Berzerker into them.

What was interesting for me was that he used the LR Phobos, which I have long maligned as a confused unit. However, in order to get something out of the tlLC, he didn't go haring off with it, as one might with a LR Crusader/Redeemer.

 

Stars of the Show

Contrary to what many expected, my Wolf Guard Terminators in their Land Raider were the real stars of the show.

 

Wherever a torrent of plasma and melta was needed -they were there.

Wherever lots of power weapons were needed -they were there.

 

The Land Raider wasn't bad either and the extra lascannons made a huge difference in my army. Although, after getting hammered by Land Raider Redeemers, I'm seriously considering one.

 

However, the more conservative nature of the Land Raider prevented me from committing the Wolf Guard Terminators too early. I feel some play testing is in order to perfect the combination of these two units.

 

Link:

Adam goes to a tourney

 

Perhaps the LR Phobos is the perfect transport for any such counter-punching unit, HG included....?

[waaanial00]

Knowing Idaho fairly well (I owe him a big apology for being ratty yesterday, which i will deliver in person when I next see him), I can answer how he doesnt get his razorback pounced on first turn.

 

Put other units in more dangerous positions and keep in harder to get to. So he always tries to make sure that his razorback has some form of cover save, whether thats behind a Rhino, behind some terrain or smoking away. I know he also places other units in more open positions to bait his opponent into shooting them first, which is something I believe he achieved fairly well with his Landspeeders.

 

He used to run a land raider as transport, however too many people suggested he changed. I also hammered the point home in a game a year ago (probably longer than that). Thing is that his Razorback seems easy to kill, however if you are occupied with killing the things which genuinely are a bigger threat at the time, the amount of fire you can afford to put on it gets vastly reduced.

 

People say all the time that they prioritise transports, hell in 5th edition thats practically a given. However in 5th edition thats a lot of targets to prioritise and to be fair they each have a danger scale associated with them. Given that most people suggest HG are a much softer target than Hammernators when the threat analysis time comes around with Dreadnoughts in shooting lanes and Typhoons ready to gun your transports down they fall by the wayside, especially when they are hard to shoot at (being masked by a Rhino) and the shots you can get are likely giving him a cover save.

 

Im sure that he will be able to put it much better than that.

[DarkGuard]

Again, I'm not Idaho, but what waaanial00 said. You've basically, not trying to sound insulting here or anything, but you've basically got to be a bit more clever than if you had a Raider. If you have a Raider you know that anything short of a railgun or meltagun will have trouble getting through your armour. You can be a bit more blatant with it, driving it straight into the enemy. You can't with a Rhino, so you have to play completely differently. Like I said in my previous post, they're best used as counter-assault most of the time, in which case you want them in the middle of your Tactical squads, about 10" away. This will often lead to them being cover, or behind another vehicle, it will happen a lot.

 

What will you shoot at, the Rhino with a cover save that's nothing yet? Or the Typhoon squadron which vaporised your transport/squad but are sitting in the open? Regardless of whether you've played against them or not, the tactical voice in your head will tell you the Typhoons are a bigger threat than the Rhino, and easier to kill as well. So you shoot at that. It just necessitates a different, subtler style of playing than a Land Raider with TH/SS Terminators, but is more rewarding because of it.

 

I'd urge you to give it a try, it is a lot of fun, and I've enjoyed my time playing with Honour Guard a lot more than with Hammernators.

 

Also, Marshal Wilhelm, you mentioned 3++ earlier. I have read through their Space Marine Codex review, was more or less the same old stuff if I'm being honest. However, I didn't see much about the Honour Guard on there. To be honest, apart from on here I haven't heard much hate against the Honour Guard, and like I said on another thread recently, my gaming group actually like them. Perhaps someone could enlighten me to where all the Honour Guard hate is found, because it's certainly seemed to die down here a bit.

[Captain Idaho]

I just spent ages writing an explanation as to how I use Honour Guard but the ;) thing crashed as I posted it and I lost it!

 

The others have explained things well. The Master mitgates the vulnerabilities of Honour Guard, whilst the transport runs in a list of target saturation and can use it's fellows as mobile cover in certain situations. The Dreadnought has superior firepower than a Rifleman, which isn't a problem in most games as 40K often ends up close and dirty.