Throne of Skulls report

[DarkGuard]

I just spent ages writing an explanation as to how I use Honour Guard but the :tu: thing crashed as I posted it and I lost it!

 

Ouch. That happened three times when I was writing the report to my Doubles tournament earlier in the year. Wrote a review for one game so many times I was sick of it, especially as that was the game we lost through bad luck.

 

EDIT: also wanted to say, in regards to the Honour Guard's Rhino being target number one. The last opponent I played managed to land his Drop Pod on the first turn in between my Honour Guard's Rhino sitting in cover, and my las plas Razorback sitting in the open on the objective. The Rhino didn't have a cover save as less than 50% was covered by the building (my Dread didn't run fast enough to cover it). My Razorback did have the cover save thanks to smoke launchers. So he had the choice between the scoring unit in the las plas Razorback on an objective (but first turn), or the choppy killy power weapon unit of death in the Rhino with no cover save. He chose the Razorback, and blew off the lascannon. Next turn the Dread and the Pod died. The the Honour Guard chopped up Astorath and his squad. That being said, it was the first time he faced the, so if he had the choice again he may choose differently ;).

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Also, Marshal Wilhelm, you mentioned 3++ earlier. I have read through their Space Marine Codex review, was more or less the same old stuff if I'm being honest. However, I didn't see much about the Honour Guard on there. To be honest, apart from on here I haven't heard much hate against the Honour Guard, and like I said on another thread recently, my gaming group actually like them. Perhaps someone could enlighten me to where all the Honour Guard hate is found, because it's certainly seemed to die down here a bit.

 

I cannot remember there being an 'Honour Guard are fail' post online, but more that whenever I've heard HG mentioned, people all say "What?! You've heard of Hammernators, yes?"

Also, Hammernators always get talked about in list building. HG never get mentioned, unless it is something mildly disparaging.

 

I think the online community assumes they are so not a choice compared to Hammernators, that they don't even saying that they are 'failzors'. If that makes sense?

 

I just spent ages writing an explanation as to how I use Honour Guard but the :) thing crashed as I posted it and I lost it!

 

The others have explained things well. The Master mitgates the vulnerabilities of Honour Guard, whilst the transport runs in a list of target saturation and can use it's fellows as mobile cover in certain situations. The Dreadnought has superior firepower than a Rifleman, which isn't a problem in most games as 40K often ends up close and dirty.

 

I now command-a then c whenever I post something of length nowadays. It is especially bad on blogs with the systems they have in place.

 

+++

So my equivalent unit of the HG would be:

 

Command Squad. 5 Marines. - 205pts

All Terminator honours. All Furious Charge.

Sergeant: power weapon.

Champion: power weapon and combat shield.

Apothecary: power weapon.

 

They would be accompanied by this;

 

Marshal - 138pts

Furious charge.

Lightning claw, Storm shield, Terminator honours

 

Rhino, w/ extra armour and smoke - 58 pts

 

401 pts. 44 pts cheaper than Idaho's HG.

 

On the charge, the Marshal is at i6 [messing up even Marine characters before they swing] and the squad at i5.

5 lightning claw attacks

12 power weapon attacks

8 normal attacks

 

which are all at s5 and i5/6

 

Whatever Idaho is messing up on the charge, these guys are doing even more so. FNP turns them into pseudo 2+ saves

 

It is not a front line squad. But you know when you send your Crusaders against MEq, and because you lack power weapons you are left facepalming at your brave soldiers?

Or you charge SangGuard and think 'boy, am I trying to help my foe or what?'

This is the unit you send in.

 

I've kept away from the special weapons, as that really undoes the whole point of THons, which I assume is mandatory once you have bought them for the first member after the Sergeant....?

 

You could do a similar thing with Sword Brethren [and so don't have to buy the Marshal, and just stick with the mandatory Emperor's Champion] but you get less power weapons, no FNP and no SS for the Independent Character.

But the THons seem to be give-able to individuals, rather than the whole squad.

 

5 Sword Brethren. 155 pts.

All with Furious Charge.

PoLC + THons.

Power weapon + THons.

 

Which is inferior to the Command Squad. But you can always by 2 more Sword Brethren for more killing power and survivability. And you already have to buy the Emperor's Champion, so why not use him?

 

 

Thoughts?

 

So this is my idea for a Templar Equivalent.

[DarkGuard]

Seems like Sword Brethren are more of a Vanguard unit then with the limited power weapon options.

 

It's quite cool that you've been able to get something similar to the Honour Guard with the Command squad. However, I'm afraid I'd say it's still more like the Command squad in C:SM than the Honour Guard. Let me explain. The Honour Guard do so well against anything short of CC dedicated not just because of their power weapons, but because of their amount of attacks. With the Master included, on the charge you're getting 10 relic blade attacks probably hitting on 3s and killing on 2s, and 20 power weapon attacks most likely hitting on 4s and wounding on 4s. While not as strong or fast as furious charge Command squad, they have more attacks because of the banner, so perhaps a Chaplain with Holy Relic instead of the Marshal? At the moment I'd say your closest equivalent is infact the BA Honour Guard, which is basically a Command squad with access to jump packs, Furious Charge, and the ability to be unlocked with any HQ choice.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Seems like Sword Brethren are more of a Vanguard unit then with the limited power weapon options.

 

It's quite cool that you've been able to get something similar to the Honour Guard with the Command squad. However, I'm afraid I'd say it's still more like the Command squad in C:SM than the Honour Guard. Let me explain. The Honour Guard do so well against anything short of CC dedicated not just because of their power weapons, but because of their amount of attacks. With the Master included, on the charge you're getting 10 relic blade attacks probably hitting on 3s and killing on 2s, and 20 power weapon attacks most likely hitting on 4s and wounding on 4s. While not as strong or fast as furious charge Command squad, they have more attacks because of the banner, so perhaps a Chaplain with Holy Relic instead of the Marshal? At the moment I'd say your closest equivalent is infact the BA Honour Guard, which is basically a Command squad with access to jump packs, Furious Charge, and the ability to be unlocked with any HQ choice.

 

Remember that I have preferred enemy.

 

Against MEq:

5 lightning claw attacks. 8/9 to hit. 8/9 to wound -> kill ~ 3.95

12 power weapon attacks. 3/4 to hit. 2/3 to wound -> kill ~ 6

8 normal attacks - 3/4 to hit. 2/3 to wound. 1/3 failed save ~ 1.3

 

10 Relic blade attacks. 2/3 to hit. 5/6 to kill ~ 5.55

20 Power weapon attacks. 1/2 to hit. 1/2 to wound ~ 5

 

I avoid the Chaplain due to him being locked into a Crozius and Rosarious. He is good value, but good value of a not optimal build is not enough. He cannot afford to upgrade to the Lightning claw or SS without ballooning his cost.

 

I can take two flamers/melta guns as well, which would add to shooty damage, though that could make the enemy turn tail before I assault them, and costs attacks in a long term assault....

What do you think?

 

Edited: Relic blades to wound 5/6 of the time.

[Captain Idaho]

Got to say I think that Templar command squad is amazing! A combination of re-rolls to hit combined with re-rolls to wound is great, but what makes it even more potent is the benefits of Furious Charge. This mitigates the weaknesses of the unit against power weapons and ensures damage potential is high.

 

It’s definitely my style of attack force! The option for a cheaper transport means it doesn’t matter too much if an extra X amount of points buys an Assault Terminator, because you are saving on the Landraider.

 

The only significant down side to this unit is when the unit is smaller after a few causalities. If reduced to a single model and running around with the attached IC, the unit is a lot less powerful. Of course, this is the advantage Honour Guard grants, but at the moment if being honest, I would prefer the Command squad you have for the lovely benefits of Furious Charge enabling you to strike before other I4 models (abundant in 40K I’m sure you will agree). Of course I don't have that option so it's not an issue. Nor would it be an issue if Honour Guard were Ultras-specific over a command squad.

 

You have mis-calculated the amount of wounds 10 Relic Blades attacks cause in your calculation I believe. They wound the majority of models on 2+, so not 2/3 of the time but actually 5/6 of the time. Of course I can’t do the math easily so could be wrong?

[DarkGuard]

I'd forgotten about preferred enemy, in that case yeah, it looks good, with the high point as Idaho says being Furious Charge. I agree that going before MEQ can really help, especially if they have power weapons. Like Idaho said the relic blade doesn't look right, it's hit 2/3 and wound 5/6, I make it more like 5.55 wounds (I can do maths again ;)), giving Honour Guard 10.55 wounds on the charge (enough to wipe out an MEQ squad) and Black Templars 11.25 wounds on the charge, I imagine the S5 and Preferred Enemy really helps, and I5 is a massive bonus. Have you included the re-rolls for the lightning claw? Remember also that some people (like me) run their Master with digi weapons, and some may even run their Champion with digi weapons if they have the points, which can potentially net another couple of kills. And of course, the Chapter Banner, while not equalling a kill, counts as +1 to combat res, so if these units take no wounds Honour Guard technically just beat it, or rather equal it :tu:.

 

That being said, it's close, I know I wouldn't want to charged by that unit. And I'm pretty sure that despite it being a retinue, the rules in Black Templars says the IC still counts as an IC for combat, so those power weapon hits on him won't bleed onto the other models. If they do, then you've got a combat shield at least.

 

Would I be correct in saying that without the charge the Honour Guard would come out on top due to the fact that you lose your S5, and despite PE the Honour Guard still have the banner. The relic blade attacks should get 4.44 kills, while the power weapons would get 4 kills. Don't know about the Templars though, not that good at maths, but guessing 6.8 overall? (yeah, I did the maths, I like the fact I can do it again). It's a bit like my Honour Guard vs my friend's BA Honour Guard, depends on who gets the charge etc. They both look solid though, especially because of the preferred enemy thanks to the EC. Will you be trying this in your upcoming games?

 

Also, @Idaho, if BA had the ability to take C:SM Honour Guard, would you have switched there for Furious Charge and FnP provided by the Priests? Or will you always be an Ultramarine with the C:SM? :lol:.

[Captain Idaho]

I am a loyal 13th Legionaire, therefore would always play with the Codex that has Calgar as a special character! <_<

 

As for the effectiveness of Honour GUard over the Command squad included above; I believe it is a moot point since I'm loyal to my Codex and Marshal Wilhelm is loyal to his so all that matters is their similarities in performance, cost and capacity of the table top. Though the Honour Guard, now I think about it a little more, are more effective as casualities come in thanks to the Banner and Champion, which to me prolongs their effectiveness, so I prefer them overall but that's because I have less assault troops than the average Templar Marshal!

 

Marshal Wilhelm; I believe you can quite easily have 2 Crusader Squads in Rhinos dedicated for close range action (probably assault) and this Command squad also mechanised, and have a substantial attack force for relatively cheap cost. After all, what's scarier, larger scoring units in threatening positions or the Command squad? A hard question for anyone to answer as it's circumstantial.

 

Hell, you could even have a separate 15 man Crusader squad in Landraider Crusader and accompanied by the Emperor's Champion all running alongside a Rhino with this Command squad. It would be an awesome attacking force and really split concentration.

 

Anyway, give it a try! I firmly believe it will surprise people as the Command squad is cheap enough to not ruin the rest of the list in an all-your-eggs-in-one-basket situation. There are different ways to play 40K and I reckon Rhino assault forces are under valued.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Would I be correct in saying that without the charge the Honour Guard would come out on top due to the fact that you lose your S5, and despite PE the Honour Guard still have the banner. The relic blade attacks should get 4.44 kills, while the power weapons would get 4 kills. Don't know about the Templars though, not that good at maths, but guessing 6.8 overall? (yeah, I did the maths, I like the fact I can do it again). It's a bit like my Honour Guard vs my friend's BA Honour Guard, depends on who gets the charge etc. They both look solid though, especially because of the preferred enemy thanks to the EC. Will you be trying this in your upcoming games?

 

Also, @Idaho, if BA had the ability to take C:SM Honour Guard, would you have switched there for Furious Charge and FnP provided by the Priests? Or will you always be an Ultramarine with the C:SM? :).

 

After the charge, and the Templars perhaps being in front due to stopping the enemy from striking [even though kills caused are much the same] the HG are better in subsequent turns.

 

Against MEq:

4 lightning claw attacks. 8/9 to hit. 3/4 to wound -> kill ~ 2.67

9 power weapon attacks. 3/4 to hit. 1/2 to wound -> kill ~ 3.37

6 normal attacks - 3/4 to hit. 1/2 to wound. 1/3 failed save ~ 0.75

= 6.79

 

8 Relic blade attacks. 2/3 to hit. 5/6 to kill ~ 4.44

16 Power weapon attacks. 1/2 to hit. 1/2 to wound ~ 4

= 9.99

 

Which makes me think the flamers and/or melta guns are even more essential to route the foe on the volley and charge?

 

I am a loyal 13th Legionaire, therefore would always play with the Codex that has Calgar as a special character! ;)

 

As for the effectiveness of Honour GUard over the Command squad included above; I believe it is a moot point since I'm loyal to my Codex and Marshal Wilhelm is loyal to his so all that matters is their similarities in performance, cost and capacity of the table top. Though the Honour Guard, now I think about it a little more, are more effective as casualities come in thanks to the Banner and Champion, which to me prolongs their effectiveness, so I prefer them overall but that's because I have less assault troops than the average Templar Marshal!

 

Marshal Wilhelm; I believe you can quite easily have 2 Crusader Squads in Rhinos dedicated for close range action (probably assault) and this Command squad also mechanised, and have a substantial attack force for relatively cheap cost. After all, what's scarier, larger scoring units in threatening positions or the Command squad? A hard question for anyone to answer as it's circumstantial.

 

Hell, you could even have a separate 15 man Crusader squad in Landraider Crusader and accompanied by the Emperor's Champion all running alongside a Rhino with this Command squad. It would be an awesome attacking force and really split concentration.

 

Anyway, give it a try! I firmly believe it will surprise people as the Command squad is cheap enough to not ruin the rest of the list in an all-your-eggs-in-one-basket situation. There are different ways to play 40K and I reckon Rhino assault forces are under valued.

 

I went to a tourney in February, losing 0-0-4 *facepalm* and being last placed. That was the very first one they ran and they are running it again in late June. So I am open to changes, although perhaps I need to perfect skill in the weapon I have.... decisions, decisions.

 

I regularly beat people at the clubs I attend, I don't think I have lost since joining them, which goes to show that you can be the biggest fish in a small pond and not even realise it. ;)

[DarkGuard]

I am a loyal 13th Legionaire, therefore would always play with the Codex that has Calgar as a special character! :P

 

In the end that's all you can ask for. I turned from the 1st Legion, but that's all in my fluff so it's fine now ;)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Have you ever thought of taking Khan instead of the Master, and so getting Furious Charge and Hit and Run on the Honour Guard?

 

I know that you'd be losing a Relic blade and a 3++ save, but then all the power weapons are getting bumped up to s5, not to mention i5.

 

Hit and Run can be nasty too. 3d6" movement, in your opponent's turn I guess, and then you are primed to assault another unit. The enemy unit that has been left can be hosed with fire power, ideally something like a Vindi, Sternguard [maybe a twin heavy flame from the safety of a Rhino?]

Khan's unit can move+assault, meaning you can really cover some ground and shock your foe - "They did what?!"

 

Thoughts?

 

EDIT:

 

With Master:

10 Relic blade attacks. 2/3 to hit. 5/6 to kill ~ 5.55

20 Power weapon attacks. 1/2 to hit. 1/2 to wound ~ 5

= 10.55

 

With Khan [not taking into account his deathsword] and Furious Charge:

5 Relic blade attacks. 2/3 to hit. 5/6 to kill ~ 2.78

6 Khan attacks. 2/3 to hit. 2/3 to kill ~ 2.67

20 Power weapon attacks: 1/2 to hit. 2/3 to kill ~ 6.67

= 12.12

[DarkGuard]

Khan would be fantastic, as would a Captain with relic blade for the 25pts decrease! Unfortunately, you can't use Honour Guard then. I don't know about Idaho, but I know that I would be using my Master as a normal Captain if I could. But the only way to take the Honour Guard is to take a Chapter Master, so either Calgar, Pedro or a generic one, nothing else will unlock them. To stick Khan in would require another 160pts, and I haven't even got the points at 1750 for a Libby. At 2000pts I'll go for a second HQ, but unfortunately it won't be Khan, it'll be that Libby.

[Captain Idaho]

I agree, access to Furious Charge would be awesome, but unfortunately we can't do this without using a second HQ unit.

 

There could be a method of using a minimum squad of 3 Honour Guard to save 70pts but that becomes a bit of an easier unit to kill for over all increased points costs.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Ah I see.

D'oh!

 

EDIT: I had seen it on Hammernators, and thought "Why not HG" but know I know why :thanks:

Psuedo-Templar Sword Brethren could be done if they had furious charge on Lightning claw Termies.

 

Plus H&R would be beastly!

 

I guess you'd just walk them behind a Rhino and keep them out of TLoS, rather than given them a LR, in keeping with the Idaho~style....

 

I mean, if you aren't dashing them across the table as is typical Assault Termie use, then why not on foot?

 

Thoughts?