Close Support

[Grimtooth]

I am just going to toss this subject up for any new SW players looking for a nice discussion.

 

You do know that wolves are pack animals correct? You do know that the Wolves fight best in packs as well correct?

 

While we all know that SW probably are the most flexible and well rounded codex out, some players new to the Wolves seem to take on too much, too fast sometimes. Funny that it pretty much matches the fluff for Blood Claws....hahahahaha!

 

Our entire army works extremely well with eachother. GH pack with GH pack is going to be the basic match-up but the principals of close support adapts easily too all the unit types. Basically you want to accomplish with close support the following:

 

Maximum kills as quickly as possible while minimizing casualties received.

 

No kidding huh? There is some actual thought behind it so keep reading.

 

Within the ruleset of Warhammer 40k we are confined to the missions at hand and the time limits set by those missions. We have a lot to do and notmuch time to do it so being efficient in killing and survivng is paramount. So look at the following situations:

 

1. GH packs working in concert kill stuff faster allowing them to move on to next objective faster instead of invariably getting tied up with one unit for multiple turns.

 

2. GH packs killing faster together do not allow your opponent to tarpit you while brining harder hitting units to bear.

 

3. Wounds received by GH packs working in concert are easier to spread or even when absorbed by a whole pack, it barely scratches at the lethality of them working together. Example, 5 wounds on 10 GH sucks compared to being spreas across 20 GH or even if spread across 5 GH, means there is still 15 GH not wounded.

 

4. In the event that both GH packs do not both assault, one GH packs serves as ideal counter-attack or deterrant against incoming enemy rushing to aid.

 

So a quick lesson on close support tactics. I have not even touched on the synergy of dual GH packs with different special weapon allocation working in concert. Seriously devastating to have a rapid firing plasmagun pack open up on unit, then have a meltagun pack open up with the meltas and bolt pistols. Whatever is left, if anything, will not stand the following meltagun pack while the plasmagun pack keeps an eye out for any enemy units rushing to aid.

[Wulfebane]

So in essence, you're recommending army-wide focus fire vs. each pack taking to their own individual targets?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Good points.

 

I think it was in a WD article called Olde Weirdes tacticus, or something like that, years ago, when they had, say, 5 normal and 1 great red units and 5 normal and 1 great blue units. The two colours were enemies.

The apprentice merely rammed his red units into the blue units.

 

xxXxxx

ooOooo

 

The master pointed out that the apprentice would be relying on the charge bonus to win, which is only going to give you a slight advantage.

 

The master then reset the board. He double teamed with two normal units, and sent the great unit against a normal unit, whilst ignoring a normal unit.

 

xxXxxx

_ooOooo

 

The charging normal unit did suffer against the great unit, but the charging great unit hammered the normal unit, and the two charging normal units similarly mauled the normal unit.

 

This yielded far greater kills than when the apprentice sent his units against their equals.

 

+++

 

It is the same thing as fighting Monsters. Don't do a few wounds on two of them - you still have two monsters fighting you. Load all the wounds onto one, kill it - now you only have one monster fighting you, and you haven't rolled any differently or caused more wounds.

 

EDIT:

Another thing is tempo, or timing.

 

Link: Darkseer's tourney list

 

Darkseer used a Wolfguard Temie pack, full of power weapons and combi-nastiness. Nothing too extraordinary there.

What really grabbed my interest was him using the LR Phobos to deliver them. Who on earth uses the tlLC Land Raider?!

What it obliged him to do, to get something from the tlLCs, was to wait. Firing on T1-2, thinning the foe out -> then dumping the Wolf Guard into something nasty's face.

 

It would have been all too obvious to go haring across the table if he'd taken a Crusader or Redeemer. But then his WG would have become isolated and smashed, even if he'd taken out the enemies best nasty unit. How often do you see, in Chess, a Queen take a Queen, only to be taken in the very next move? Quite often with green players.

No net gain usually is a bad trade.

 

The tlLC obliged him to play slower, which allowed him to thin out the foe through more shooting and then maintain a cohesive force, which he unleashed on the foe.

 

How often, in old movies, do you hear "Hold, hold, wait till you see the whites of their eyes" and then bam!

That is timing in action.

[Grimtooth]

More of a mindset of don't send one unit to go do a job when two can get it done faster and get both units on the next target/objective quicker.

 

My basic build has 3 Grey Hunter squads that I have folded flanks and punched through the middle of lines by working together properly. I learned awhile ago that splitting forces turns out bad more times then good.

 

Of course that doesn't include Long Fang fire support, advancing thunderlord/twc, drop podding dreadnought, or podding WGTDA working together in their own right.

[maverik_girl]

awesome stuff guys! that's how I always play my grey hunters. Wolf pack mentality! Always have a support pack for a counter-attack pack. It's a reason why I never understand why some people wanted combat squads when the codex came out, or even why some people use smaller grey hunter packs of 5 without another pack close enough to support one another.

[Grimtooth]

Good points.

 

I think it was in a WD article called Olde Weirdes tacticus, or something like that, years ago, when they had, say, 5 normal and 1 great red units and 5 normal and 1 great blue units. The two colours were enemies.

The apprentice merely rammed his red units into the blue units.

 

xxXxxx

ooOooo

 

The master pointed out that the apprentice would be relying on the charge bonus to win, which is only going to give you a slight advantage.

 

The master then reset the board. He double teamed with two normal units, and sent the great unit against a normal unit, whilst ignoring a normal unit.

 

xxXxxx

_ooOooo

 

The charging normal unit did suffer against the great unit, but the charging great unit hammered the normal unit, and the two charging normal units similarly mauled the normal unit.

 

This yielded far greater kills than when the apprentice sent his units against their equals.

 

+++

 

It is the same thing as fighting Monsters. Don't do a few wounds on two of them - you still have two monsters fighting you. Load all the wounds onto one, kill it - now you only have one monster fighting you, and you haven't rolled any differently or caused more wounds.

 

EDIT:

Another thing is tempo, or timing.

 

Link: Darkseer's tourney list

 

Darkseer used a Wolfguard Temie pack, full of power weapons and combi-nastiness. Nothing too extraordinary there.

What really grabbed my interest was him using the LR Phobos to deliver them. Who on earth uses the tlLC Land Raider?!

What it obliged him to do, to get something from the tlLCs, was to wait. Firing on T1-2, thinning the foe out -> then dumping the Wolf Guard into something nasty's face.

 

It would have been all too obvious to go haring across the table if he'd taken a Crusader or Redeemer. But then his WG would have become isolated and smashed, even if he'd taken out the enemies best nasty unit. How often do you see, in Chess, a Queen take a Queen, only to be taken in the very next move? Quite often with green players.

No net gain usually is a bad trade.

 

The tlLC obliged him to play slower, which allowed him to thin out the foe through more shooting and then maintain a cohesive force, which he unleashed on the foe.

 

How often, in old movies, do you hear "Hold, hold, wait till you see the whites of their eyes" and then bam!

That is timing in action.

 

I did that to a Chaos player this weekend.

 

I held and held behind the cover of a building. I used my Long Fangs to stop his CSM and Berzerker rhinos forcing the dismount. The thing was is that he pushed his Vindi forward without troop support because he got impatient and then also deepstruck his terminators unsupported except for his joined sorceror. Once he had spread himself out that far, I overwhelmed him completely finishing him off over two turns while the waiting took three.

[Jonny Wolf]

Well said brother...

 

Have you ever read "Small Wars", "Operations" or "Art of War" perchance? :P

[Simo429]

Really this is in essence what good 40K players (which I am not claiming to be) do. 40K is a war of attrition, you look at what is the most threatening to you and you target it till its gone.

 

A very good OP

[DV8]

A great intro into what is undoubtedly a complex topic that is really what Space Wolves is all about.

 

Taking it beyond Ramses OP, realize that you needn't necessarily always use Grey Hunter packs to support other Grey Hunter packs, nor that they necessarily need to be in close proximity to properly support each other. By ensuring that every unit is a viable threat to the opponent, you further dilute their firepower and thus their army effectiveness because every one of your units remains a threat they must eliminate. By also ensuring that your units are well-rounded, there are no "must-kill" units that your opponent needs to kill first. If every unit rises to the top of your opponent's mental enemy-threat-checklist, then every unit ends up living longer and thus multiplying their effect on the battlefield.

 

Consider:

 

10 Grey Hunters, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino

 

This unit is a pretty focused unit, great at taking out enemy armor at close range and can double against hordes relatively effectively. The Rhino gives them mobility to move across the battlefield and react to the enemy, and in a pinch they make a decent assault unit (or counter-assault unit).

 

10 Grey Hunters, 2 Meltaguns, Power Weapon or Fist, Rhino

 

For a marginal expenditure in points, we make the unit a double threat in combat, the Weapon able to cleave through armored infantry at Initiative, but the Fist the graver threat as it threatens armor, monsters, and other characters as well.

 

9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Rhino

Wolf Guard, Combi-Flamer, Power Fist

 

This unit is an all-rounder, and while it sacrifices that one Meltagun shot, it trades that for the increased Leadership of the Wolf Guard (and their combat prowess with the extra Power Fist attack). Additionally, the Flamer allows them to provide a serious threat to horde units, as well as units bunkering in cover (like Guard fire support units). This unit can threaten literally any unit in the game and while individually isn't anything "major", when you have 2 or 3 of these units, it starts to become a serious threat.

 

This is also one of the reasons Wolf Guard in mech squads are fantastic, because their flexibility in wargear allows them to boost squads beyond what they were originally capable!

 

While this Grey Hunter pack is simply one illustration, by taking that maxim (that a unit can provide a viable threat to everything in the game) and applying it to your entire army (whereby every unit can reliably and effectively threaten everything in the game) while keeping your army close enough to support each other, you take that pack mentality to something behind frightening.

 

 

DV8

[Grimtooth]

A great intro into what is undoubtedly a complex topic that is really what Space Wolves is all about.

 

Taking it beyond Ramses OP, realize that you needn't necessarily always use Grey Hunter packs to support other Grey Hunter packs, nor that they necessarily need to be in close proximity to properly support each other. By ensuring that every unit is a viable threat to the opponent, you further dilute their firepower and thus their army effectiveness because every one of your units remains a threat they must eliminate. By also ensuring that your units are well-rounded, there are no "must-kill" units that your opponent needs to kill first. If every unit rises to the top of your opponent's mental enemy-threat-checklist, then every unit ends up living longer and thus multiplying their effect on the battlefield.

 

Consider:

 

10 Grey Hunters, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino

 

This unit is a pretty focused unit, great at taking out enemy armor at close range and can double against hordes relatively effectively. The Rhino gives them mobility to move across the battlefield and react to the enemy, and in a pinch they make a decent assault unit (or counter-assault unit).

 

10 Grey Hunters, 2 Meltaguns, Power Weapon or Fist, Rhino

 

For a marginal expenditure in points, we make the unit a double threat in combat, the Weapon able to cleave through armored infantry at Initiative, but the Fist the graver threat as it threatens armor, monsters, and other characters as well.

 

9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Rhino

Wolf Guard, Combi-Flamer, Power Fist

 

This unit is an all-rounder, and while it sacrifices that one Meltagun shot, it trades that for the increased Leadership of the Wolf Guard (and their combat prowess with the extra Power Fist attack). Additionally, the Flamer allows them to provide a serious threat to horde units, as well as units bunkering in cover (like Guard fire support units). This unit can threaten literally any unit in the game and while individually isn't anything "major", when you have 2 or 3 of these units, it starts to become a serious threat.

 

This is also one of the reasons Wolf Guard in mech squads are fantastic, because their flexibility in wargear allows them to boost squads beyond what they were originally capable!

 

While this Grey Hunter pack is simply one illustration, by taking that maxim (that a unit can provide a viable threat to everything in the game) and applying it to your entire army (whereby every unit can reliably and effectively threaten everything in the game) while keeping your army close enough to support each other, you take that pack mentality to something behind frightening.

 

 

DV8

 

Some great points here. However, I am going to almost put out a disclaimer on this post in that it is approaching competitive tournament list building techniques and thought processing.

 

As I mentioned the new player attitude of being similar to a Blood Claw, the advanced gearing proposed by DV8 can just as easily encourage the BC like behavior of biting off more then they can chew or the opposite by intimidation in the form of too many tools to keep track/get flustered. As the basic unit gets more complex in its capabilities, it does become more difficult to manage correctly.

 

At the LGS level when goofing around on a Saturday, it is no problem running around with the minimum GH builds. Recovering from tactical mistakes are a breeze since for the most part your opponent is either not going to catch it, he is going to make a tactical mistake on his own, or his own build is not set-up to capitalize on said mistakes. At the higher levels of competition, the basic build is not making as much an impact as the complex builds because you are no longer facing basic builds or basic opponents.

 

Not disagreeing with DV8 at all, just that on the difference between the first example that he placed down to the last example vary from fun non-competitive builds for newbies to the more competitive builds for advanced players.

[hendrik]

9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Rhino

Wolf Guard, Combi-Flamer, Power Fist

DV8

really interesting to hear and learn more tactics as one is never too old to learn a new trick. have you tried fielding almost the same unit made up from grey hunters, eg:

10 grey hunters, flamer as the first weapon, meltagun as the one you get for free, powerfist, rhino? this build comes in at 160 pts compared to 213pts for only missing out 1 boltershot(from the combiflamer), the ld bonus and 1 powerfist attack. you gain however a re-usable template weapon, save an elite slot and save 53 points. by doing this 3 times you can now include another pack.

just an idea i had when reading your build

[Forté]

9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Rhino

Wolf Guard, Combi-Flamer, Power Fist

DV8

really interesting to hear and learn more tactics as one is never too old to learn a new trick. have you tried fielding almost the same unit made up from grey hunters, eg:

10 grey hunters, flamer as the first weapon, meltagun as the one you get for free, powerfist, rhino? this build comes in at 160 pts compared to 213pts for only missing out 1 boltershot(from the combiflamer), the ld bonus and 1 powerfist attack. you gain however a re-usable template weapon, save an elite slot and save 53 points. by doing this 3 times you can now include another pack.

just an idea i had when reading your build

this is throwing up too many useable options. Thank you.

 

Is a Wolf Guards Ld bonus truly worth the extra points?

[Simo429]

9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Rhino

Wolf Guard, Combi-Flamer, Power Fist

DV8

really interesting to hear and learn more tactics as one is never too old to learn a new trick. have you tried fielding almost the same unit made up from grey hunters, eg:

10 grey hunters, flamer as the first weapon, meltagun as the one you get for free, powerfist, rhino? this build comes in at 160 pts compared to 213pts for only missing out 1 boltershot(from the combiflamer), the ld bonus and 1 powerfist attack. you gain however a re-usable template weapon, save an elite slot and save 53 points. by doing this 3 times you can now include another pack.

just an idea i had when reading your build

You can't do that, you have to pay for the most expensive.

[Union.Jack]

9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Rhino

Wolf Guard, Combi-Flamer, Power Fist

DV8

really interesting to hear and learn more tactics as one is never too old to learn a new trick. have you tried fielding almost the same unit made up from grey hunters, eg:

10 grey hunters, flamer as the first weapon, meltagun as the one you get for free, powerfist, rhino? this build comes in at 160 pts compared to 213pts for only missing out 1 boltershot(from the combiflamer), the ld bonus and 1 powerfist attack. you gain however a re-usable template weapon, save an elite slot and save 53 points. by doing this 3 times you can now include another pack.

just an idea i had when reading your build

You can't do that, you have to pay for the most expensive.

 

I think he's talking about the free one for taking 10 Grey Hunters. You never pay for taking a flamer anyway.

[Simo429]

9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Rhino

Wolf Guard, Combi-Flamer, Power Fist

DV8

really interesting to hear and learn more tactics as one is never too old to learn a new trick. have you tried fielding almost the same unit made up from grey hunters, eg:

10 grey hunters, flamer as the first weapon, meltagun as the one you get for free, powerfist, rhino? this build comes in at 160 pts compared to 213pts for only missing out 1 boltershot(from the combiflamer), the ld bonus and 1 powerfist attack. you gain however a re-usable template weapon, save an elite slot and save 53 points. by doing this 3 times you can now include another pack.

just an idea i had when reading your build

You can't do that, you have to pay for the most expensive.

 

I think he's talking about the free one for taking 10 Grey Hunters. You never pay for taking a flamer anyway.

Which is why you would pay for the melta gun, you can't take a flamer for free and then pay for the free one, you have to pay for the most expensive.

 

So if you take a flamer and a melta you pay 5 points

if you take a flamer and a plasma you pay 10

if you take a melta and a plasma you take 10

 

whether you write one down first or second doesn't matter, you pay for your most expensive weapon.

[Shadow warrior]

9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Rhino

Wolf Guard, Combi-Flamer, Power Fist

DV8

really interesting to hear and learn more tactics as one is never too old to learn a new trick. have you tried fielding almost the same unit made up from grey hunters, eg:

10 grey hunters, flamer as the first weapon, meltagun as the one you get for free, powerfist, rhino? this build comes in at 160 pts compared to 213pts for only missing out 1 boltershot(from the combiflamer), the ld bonus and 1 powerfist attack. you gain however a re-usable template weapon, save an elite slot and save 53 points. by doing this 3 times you can now include another pack.

just an idea i had when reading your build

You can't do that, you have to pay for the most expensive.

 

I think he's talking about the free one for taking 10 Grey Hunters. You never pay for taking a flamer anyway.

Which is why you would pay for the melta gun, you can't take a flamer for free and then pay for the free one, you have to pay for the most expensive.

 

So if you take a flamer and a melta you pay 5 points

if you take a flamer and a plasma you pay 10

if you take a melta and a plasma you take 10

 

whether you write one down first or second doesn't matter, you pay for your most expensive weapon.

 

 

thats sounds fair but its crazy then you dont have much of a deal if you take 10 GH and the WG sounds much beter option

[Union.Jack]

Which is why you would pay for the melta gun, you can't take a flamer for free and then pay for the free one, you have to pay for the most expensive.

 

So if you take a flamer and a melta you pay 5 points

if you take a flamer and a plasma you pay 10

if you take a melta and a plasma you take 10

 

whether you write one down first or second doesn't matter, you pay for your most expensive weapon.

 

I read that as,

 

The Flamer is free no matter how many hunters there are.

 

Both the flamer and Melta are free if you take 10 'Hunters.

 

But I digress.

Isn't that the bonus for taking 10 'Hunters and not 9 & a WG?

 

Army builder says it's free if you have 10 Hunters.

 

But we've digressed.

[Simo429]

You digressed twice, like I said the most expensive is paid for first, then comes the least expensive and yes you have to have 10 grey hunters not 9+1 wolf guard

[maverik_girl]

@Union.Jack, I agree, but at the same time NEVER rely on army builder. There was one time in band camp, army builder told me that such and such, wargear was free or it's this much, when really as it's written on the codex it was actually that much.

[Praga Ashskull]

9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Rhino

Wolf Guard, Combi-Flamer, Power Fist

DV8

really interesting to hear and learn more tactics as one is never too old to learn a new trick. have you tried fielding almost the same unit made up from grey hunters, eg:

10 grey hunters, flamer as the first weapon, meltagun as the one you get for free, powerfist, rhino? this build comes in at 160 pts compared to 213pts for only missing out 1 boltershot(from the combiflamer), the ld bonus and 1 powerfist attack. you gain however a re-usable template weapon, save an elite slot and save 53 points. by doing this 3 times you can now include another pack.

just an idea i had when reading your build

 

10 grey hunters, flamer as the first weapon, meltagun powerfist, rhino is not 160 but 210 points,

9 grey hunters, meltagun , rhino is 175 wolfguard with powerfist and combi is 43 total 218

so the difference is 8 points, well spend I think .

(unless my maths are off) :lol:)

[Union.Jack]

@Union.Jack, I agree, but at the same time NEVER rely on army builder. There was one time in band camp, army builder told me that such and such, wargear was free or it's this much, when really as it's written on the codex it was actually that much.

 

 

 

I don't. Not since Ab thinks that mark of the wolfen is 30 points, not 15 (it add's a GH not giving the mark to an existing 'Hunter)

 

The specific wording in the codex says " One Grey Hunter may replace his bolter for Flamer for free, Melta for x points, plasma for x points. If the squad numbers 10 models, a second grey hunter may replace bolter with a weapon from above at no addititional cost."

 

That, to me say's both weapons are free if there are 10 Grey Hunters.

 

But as I said before (twice thanks to the edit function and my inability to type) we've moved off topic.

[DV8]

Actually there has been no official ruling as to the sequence in which you purchase upgrades for your unit, and you are fully within your right to take a 10 man squad, take the free Flamer, and then by virtue of being 10-strong, take the Meltagun for free. Anybody who argues otherwise is simply arguing what they think should be done and have no actual ruling to back it up (unless GW has recently released a new FAQ that I don't know about).

 

That being said:

 

10 Grey Hunters: 210 pts

- Flamer, Meltagun (free because you took the Flamer as your first special weapon), Power Fist, Rhino

 

Wolf Guard + 9 Grey Hunters: 218 pts

- Combi-Melta, Power Fist, Rhino

- Meltagun, Rhino

 

The difference in points is marginal, and there are reasons for going both routes. HOWEVER, if you are taking a full 10-strong pack and not a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, always always always double up on the same special weapon. Both have different ranges and purposes, and it makes almost no sense to to mix and match.

 

There are pros and cons to both types of set-ups (that is, 10-strong versus 9 + Wolf Guard), but the way I see it, there are only specific situations where a 10-strong pack is advisable (assuming mech in all situations; footsloggers (that is, no transports, infantry walking) can have the best of both worlds).

 

1. Characters in transports (i.e. Rune Priests) - The moment you need to attach a Rune Priest to a Grey Hunter pack so that they can all hitch a ride together, automatically means your pack can no longer be 10-strong (because of the character). Thus, if the pack is already less than 10, you might as well attach a Wolf Guard if you intend to take a Power Fist. A Grey Hunter with a Power Fist is 40 points, only has 1 attack (2 on the charge), and Leadership 8. A Wolf Guard Pack Leader with a Power Fist is 38 points, has 2 attacks (3 on the charge), and Leadership 9. For an extra 5 points (total of 43 points) you can take a Combi-Weapon that will, in a way, "make up" for the loss of the second free special weapon. Yes, it is one shot, which is why I typically suggest taking the Combi-Flamer (although dependent on style, army list, and local meta, a Combi-Melta is sometimes good too). In most situations where you would be firing the Flamer, you'll only typically get one shot off anyways, so you learn to make it count. Likewise with the Combi-Melta (factor in the turns it takes to position your army, plus the possible turns where you will actually be able to fire the weapon, you'd really only reliably fire your Flamer or Meltagun twice or at most three times in a game anyways, barring certain situations). So the trade-off in shots for an extra attack in combat, plus the Leadership (for Counter-Attack and for Leadership/Morale tests) is MORE than worth it.
   
2. Not enough units to assign Wolf Guard - Smaller point games, or perhaps where you simply don't have enough units to assign Wolf Guard, are probably better off not taking them. Wolf Guard packs require a minimum of 3, and if you only have 1 or 2 packs that require Wolf Guard, you don't want a single Wolf Guard running around giving up free Kill Points. Additionally, squads of Wolf Guard tend to get pricey and unless you're running a Logan-army, are really more specialists you take to bolster other squads. This is rarely the case, since most games 1000 points+ tend to have at least 3 squads of Grey Hunteres anyways. Even the inclusion of Wolf Scouts, or Long Fangs (ablative wounds, or ALTERNATIVELY having 5 Wolf Guard, so you assign one in Terminator Armor with Cyclone Missile Launcher to the Long Fangs for extra pewpew) will see Wolf Guard Pack Leaders pull their weight around.
   
3. Drop Pod Assault - An Alpha-Strike squad designed to land in and vape a target on the first turn won't necessarily benefit much from having a Wolf Guard, since their goal is to simply land in, fire off their weapons, and then take the hits. That said, since it is only an 8 point difference, if you have the points, do it. Again given proximity to the enemy, unless you get lucky and manage to catch a unit or two off on their own, you'll probably only manage to fire your special weapons once anyways before you are either killed or locked in combat (and wiped away by superior numbers). Given that the Pack Leader doesn't forfeit any extra Kill Points, even an Alpha-Strike suicide squad benefits from a Pack Leader.
   

 

Now, that being said, having a Wolf Guard Pack Leader is not the be-all-end-all route to take. Can mechanized Grey Hunter packs work without Pack Leaders? Absolutely! It simply requires a different style of play than a pack that does, simply because it loses many of the advantages that having a Pack Leader brings.

 

@Ramses - Yes, you're right, and I pseudo-apologize for hijacking your thread with more advanced tactics. READER BE WARNED! :)

 

 

DV8

[Prot]

Actually there has been no official ruling as to the sequence in which you purchase upgrades for your unit, and you are fully within your right to take a 10 man squad, take the free Flamer, and then by virtue of being 10-strong, take the Meltagun for free. Anybody who argues otherwise is simply arguing what they think should be done and have no actual ruling to back it up (unless GW has recently released a new FAQ that I don't know about).

 

Agreed. I mean in plain text, that's how I read it too.

 

I will say I like the gist of the main tactic being discussed, but there are times where you gotta do the opposite.... I just had a game where I had held everything back against a Green Tide list (not true green tide) and I was trying to keep the razors and Long Fangs firing on all cylinders as long as possible because it was the only advantage I had.

 

Sure enough the tide was at my door step and I felt I had to divide 4 Grey Hunter squads into 2 blocking units. I took a chance, Hurricaned a remnant Ork horde, and it worked, he failed his difficult terrain roll to assault me on one side, the other side I took my other 2 Hunter squads and pistol whipped him.

 

This tactic worked beautifully and allowed my Long Fang/Razors to still mince up his armour/trucks, but only because I elected to take on two remnant mobs at once. If I didn't do this, I am almost positive I would have had my shooty units locked up while his trucks advanced. Still I had to hold back as long as humanly possible to get every shot in possible. When the time came to rhino block and split assault, I took the chance.

 

It's all about experience and knowing when to go for it. But in most cases, I agree about keeping it all together!

[hendrik]

whaa, wow, damn my math was off! in my defence it was rather late for me :lol: with only 8 points in difference a wolf guard seems indeed better

[Grimtooth]

Actually there has been no official ruling as to the sequence in which you purchase upgrades for your unit, and you are fully within your right to take a 10 man squad, take the free Flamer, and then by virtue of being 10-strong, take the Meltagun for free. Anybody who argues otherwise is simply arguing what they think should be done and have no actual ruling to back it up (unless GW has recently released a new FAQ that I don't know about).

 

Agreed. I mean in plain text, that's how I read it too.

 

I will say I like the gist of the main tactic being discussed, but there are times where you gotta do the opposite.... I just had a game where I had held everything back against a Green Tide list (not true green tide) and I was trying to keep the razors and Long Fangs firing on all cylinders as long as possible because it was the only advantage I had.

 

Sure enough the tide was at my door step and I felt I had to divide 4 Grey Hunter squads into 2 blocking units. I took a chance, Hurricaned a remnant Ork horde, and it worked, he failed his difficult terrain roll to assault me on one side, the other side I took my other 2 Hunter squads and pistol whipped him.

 

This tactic worked beautifully and allowed my Long Fang/Razors to still mince up his armour/trucks, but only because I elected to take on two remnant mobs at once. If I didn't do this, I am almost positive I would have had my shooty units locked up while his trucks advanced. Still I had to hold back as long as humanly possible to get every shot in possible. When the time came to rhino block and split assault, I took the chance.

 

It's all about experience and knowing when to go for it. But in most cases, I agree about keeping it all together!

 

Of course, this isn't a tactic set in stone.

 

In your instance it was not really an offensive assault. Yes you assaulted, but it was to prevent your Long Fangs from being overrun. It was pro-active defense.

 

My best story against Orks was when facing a huge mob of Boyz, I had two GH packs hunker down in cover. I rapid fired at close range into the mobs and then let him assault me. Counter-attack for the win (which he forgot about) decimated the entire mob, putting them below 10 models, and forcing the run away. Hahaha, the look on my friend face was priceless.