Squad Sizes

[Gentlemanloser]

I used to be firmly in the max squad size camp, but slowly, I'm starting to change my mind. ;)

 

The benefits for filling out to 10 men were obvious (to me! :)). Less Kill Points. More durable Squads. Less FOC slots used. More Special Weapons (And less points spent on Justicars!). And with the coming of the new Dex, they seemed even better. Can Combat Squad if not playing Kill Points. Squad based upgrades are cheaper at max size. Greater leverage of Grand Strategy.

 

But.

 

The draw of smaller units is now tugging me. Why?

 

More Justicars! More Transports. Less chance of being tied up or tarpitted.

 

So where do you fall on Squad Sizes? 2 x 5 man, or 1 x 10 man? And why?

[Gibious]

I am going to add a whole new world of crazy to your though by saying I currently run my SS as squads of 6. That extra attack or wound has actualy made a difference...

 

-gib-

[dublindawg]

I am going to add a whole new world of crazy to your though by saying I currently run my SS as squads of 6. That extra attack or wound has actualy made a difference...

 

-gib-

 

I agree with Gib, 6-man squads in razorbacks maximized the transport copacity size and give you extra firepower from the TL goodness on the transport.

[Angelis Mortis]

I prefer full squads of 10 for the points efficiency. Psybolts on 10 is 2pts per, rather than 5 pts per on 5. Banner on 10 is 2.5pts per inseat of 5 per and you get 5 more attacks out of it. In addition, if I want to break them into combat squads no problem.

[number6]

I prefer full squads of 10 for the points efficiency.

Depends on what you mean by "points efficiency". After all, the GK codex has been designed so that every basic unit -- with the squad "sergeant" (e.g., Justicar, Knight of Flame) -- costs exactly the same as filling out the unit with another 5 basic guys.

 

Sounds like "free" sergeants to me! And those sergeants can nearly always take advantage of additional rules for wargear/weaponry.

 

Full units have their place.

 

But there is a reason many people play the game with minimal units in MSU style. Gentlemanloser gives a few of those reasons. In general, MSU is more resilient, more flexible, and harder to kill off than a list designed around maximum squad sizes.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You have the choice to combat squad the 10 man squads - less transports though overall.

 

G <_<

[Gentlemanloser]

Imagine a 10 Man Interceptor Squad (so Transports aren't an issue).

 

If you CS them, one of the 5 mans is going to be Ld8.

 

for the same price you can get two 5 men units, both with Ld9 and an extra attack in the second Squad.

 

All for the price of an extra kill point and less efficiency with Psybolt Ammo and Grand Strategy.

[TyrionTheImp]

If you're not short on slots, why NOT 5 men squads?

 

They die easier in assault, so your army can shoot up whatever killed them.

 

They're cheaper per unit, so the loss of one from an assault is no big deal.

 

Ld9 and an extra attack for no extra charge.

 

Overload your opponent's targets and he's more likely to make a mistake.

 

I find Strike Squads are significantly better when run in squads of 5, but these are troops so slots are usually not a problem.

 

For other choices, purifiers, purgations, and even interceptors if you wanted Storm Ravens, you may feel like you need more bodies, but lack the slots, so taking 10 and combat squadding them is not a bad idea. Especially for purifiers where you can make a ranged squad and a melee squad so you're not wasting shooting or melee as you would with one non combat squaded 5 man group.

[Wildfire]

Personally, if I was to play actual GKs I'd be using max sized strike squads to get the most out of psybolts and grand strategy. In a rhino they can shoot both heavy weapons out the doors. I'm not sold on a 50 point S6 heavy bolter being an especially good buy when you have to get out to shoot the psycannons. And in 1/3 of your games you'll have more kill points out there for your opponent to collect.

 

But that's me.

[landoro]

I have played diffrently in all games. I do feel that 5 man squads are fragile, and dont have the firepower or men to be effective, and 10 man squads attratct lots of firepower and limits the amount of squads beacuse they are expensive, I go 6 or 7 actually. My 7 man Interceptor unit is wiht an incinerator and hammer is gold, big enough to shoot and assault what they face, small enough to hide and to be overlooked. Terminators are also 6 or more, but I have few troops so I want hte ones I have to be durable, and they are.

I alternate between a single 10 man strike squad and 2 small 6 man squads (I use no transports, instead I have the summoning), both have done well, leaning towards the 10 man however, beacause then I wont have to buy more models, (been proxing a bit).

 

have fun

landoro

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

The biggest pro of 10 man squad is psybolt ammo, as the price of that is fixed.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I'm firmly in the 10 man camp, but then I don't mechanise.

 

I build armies around a core of two 10 man GKT squads and I find it pays off going 10, they take allot of flak and 5 man squads just wither away. A 10 man termie squad can take a beating and still hit the enemy line with enough punch to be effective.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well for Termies, there's no reall benefit for taking 2 x 5 men over 1 x 10.

 

No extra Justicar attack. No extra Transport.

 

All the benefits for 2 x 5 Man can be got thorugh combat squadding, and you lose GS efficency, Psybolt and Banner efficency.

 

There's just no reason for.

[Drachnon]

Analysis strike squad:

Pros 2x 5 men squad over 10 men squad with possibility to combat squad:

extra Justicars (meaning +1 attack and LD for one of the two squads)

Allows more razorbacks if you want to field them

Can fill mandatory troop choices.

 

Pros 10 men squad with possibility to combat squad over 2x 5 men squad:

Less kill points if desired

More flexibility with weapon load out of combat squads (can put both psycannons in one combat squad)

Can all go into one transport (if not combat squaded)

Less points per model for psybolt ammo

Combat squads both benefit from grant strategy

 

I think overall the 10 men squad gives more options even though the loss of LD in one of the combat squads is significant when using hammer hand and warp quake. If you do a similar analysis of purifiers or terminators most of the benefits of the 2x5 men squads disappear while the advantages of a 10 men squad stay (plus you get bonus of taking less slots with purifiers).

[Wildfire]

Well for Termies, there's no reall benefit for taking 2 x 5 men over 1 x 10.

 

No extra Justicar attack. No extra Transport.

 

All the benefits for 2 x 5 Man can be got thorugh combat squadding, and you lose GS efficency, Psybolt and Banner efficency.

 

There's just no reason for.

 

Saving points if you're going min core.

[Gentlemanloser]

True, if you just want them to full fill your min 2 troops requirement.

[Zhukov]

I'm dissapointed, I hoped at least 1 person would have mentioned the following:

 

Wound allocation.

 

This is (for me and it should be for others too lol) one of thé biggest reasons you might want to choose for 10 man squads.

 

What's the deal?

-You inflict so many wounds with a 10 man squads (even more so with psybolt) that you force your oppenent their squads to constantly take saves on their 'special guys', so meltaguns/sergeants etc. Is this good? Hell yes it is!

-In reverse: When people shoot at your 5 man squads you'll be taking saves on your psycannon guy and the Justicar very often. So yes, it will happen that you lose your justicar and psycannon guy very early. Now with 10 man squads your psycannon guys and justicar is way more 'save', it takes quite a while before you need to take wounds on them. Unless you're of course playing against against other GK players who took also large squads :lol:

 

Example:

2x5 man with a psycannon shoot at a 10 man squad. They'll inflict both 3,33 wounds; on average killing 2 or 3 guys of you with no danger of losing an 'important guy'.

1x10 man shoots at one of those 5 man squads. They inflict around 6,66 wounds on average, killing also 2 or 3 guys. However, you got a very decent chance that you killed the justicar and/or psycannon.

 

Just an example; but it really does work like this overall (well especially early game of course) also against almost every other army! Most GH squads are 6-8 man large for example.

 

A 10 man squad, including 2 psycannons and psybolt does on average about 11 - 12 wounds when standing still... Even if you don't stand still (so you losing 4 psycannon shots) still nets you around 9 wounds, which is still very potent.

 

 

I like both btw, MSU or big squads, heck you can combine them in a list too. Personally I like reliability and therefore choose for large squads. Razorbacks are really sweet though.

[Wildfire]

Offensively, you've got a good point about wound allocation. Defensively, I'm not so sure. Yeah, you may be forced to take saves on the justicar/psycannon on squad 1 with fewer wounds, but squad 2 is taking no saves at all, which is even better protection.

[Zhukov]

Offensively, you've got a good point about wound allocation. Defensively, I'm not so sure. Yeah, you may be forced to take saves on the justicar/psycannon on squad 1 with fewer wounds, but squad 2 is taking no saves at all, which is even better protection.

How is it better protection when you still lose the same amount of guys (with risk of losing important ones) in total? You're losing me there...

[Gentlemanloser]

Becuase in the 2x5 set up you have two Justicars. Even if one Justicar is being forced tro take more saves, your other justicar is totally safe. :lol:

[Zhukov]

Becuase in the 2x5 set up you have two Justicars. Even if one Justicar is being forced tro take more saves, your other justicar is totally safe. :P

Lol, I still call that argument a fallacy :lol: It falls in the category 'If you shoot that dead you're not shooting at something else!!!" OH RLY?

 

Btw, what about taking an avatar? It's nice to be able to recognize people instantly instead of having to focus on their name ^^

 

 

Also, realise that I didn't repeat all the other arguments which were already given, I'm not a tape recorder of course ;) (MSU means more justicars ofc)

[Angelis Mortis]

Well for Termies, there's no reall benefit for taking 2 x 5 men over 1 x 10.

 

No extra Justicar attack. No extra Transport.

 

All the benefits for 2 x 5 Man can be got thorugh combat squadding, and you lose GS efficency, Psybolt and Banner efficency.

 

There's just no reason for.

 

Thats not true. Just like with others, your making certain gear more efficient. Pysbolts 2 pts ea for 10 or 4 pts ea for 5. Banner, 5ea +5 attacks, or 2.5 ea and get +10 attacks. I still think 10 is better than 5. Lets look at some math.

 

 

2x5 man ea w/PC, banner 500pts total both squads have a total of 30 attacks and 2 PC

1x10 man w/PCx2, banner = 475pts total 30 attacks, and 2 PC

 

When you start adding other shenanigans the points gap gets wider. So IMHO, if you put bigger squads on the table, you can get some wargear and put more models down than if you do MSUs. MSUs will wind up with much smaller model counts or slightly smaller without any cool gear. And in addition your individual units will be much more fragile.

 

5 mans are too fragile, they get wiped too easy or they lose wargear too easy. They get made non-scoring too easy. All for a free Justicar to give you +1a, +1Ld and a MC weapon (maybe)? The benefits do not out weight the risks IMHO.

[Joasht]

The thing is, going for MSU in the GK codex also enables access to an extra Psyback, which is actually fairly good for its points, only costing approximately two GKSS's. Provides you with armor saturation (because 10-man squads means less vehicles) and a decently killy gun. I however think that a mix of small and big units is always the way to go. Small units lack staying power, and sometimes you simply need that 10-man blob in your army.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thats not true. Just like with others, your making certain gear more efficient. Pysbolts 2 pts ea for 10 or 4 pts ea for 5. Banner, 5ea +5 attacks, or 2.5 ea and get +10 attacks. I still think 10 is better than 5. Lets look at some math.

 

LoL! That's what I said. ;)

 

Lol, I still call that argument a fallacy It falls in the category 'If you shoot that dead you're not shooting at something else!!!" OH RLY?

 

Well, the discussion was aobut wound allocation, and for a single salvo of fire, 5 is worse than 10 due to the 'special' guys tkaing more hits.

 

The comparison is aobut a single salvo. So with 10 versus 2 x 5, then 5 of your guys are getting off scott free! One of your two Justicars isn't taking any hits, no matter how many land. ;)

 

Btw, what about taking an avatar? It's nice to be able to recognize people instantly instead of having to focus on their name ^^

 

:) Maybe I'll use the BC I entered for the Arena.

[Wildfire]

Lol, I still call that argument a fallacy :) It falls in the category 'If you shoot that dead you're not shooting at something else!!!" OH RLY?

 

You know, I've generally thought you were spot on in most other topics, so I'm a bit puzzled on why you think this is a fallacy. Do you mean it's not true? Do you mean it's not helpful? I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here, would you elaborate?

 

Btw, what about taking an avatar? It's nice to be able to recognize people instantly instead of having to focus on their name ^^

 

No. I hate avatars, icons, and all that other junk. It clutters up my screen with nonsense. I wish there was some way to make it so I didn't have to look at other people's avatars.

 

They get made non-scoring too easy.

 

You mean they get made dead to easy?