Squad Sizes

[Zhukov]

The comparison is aobut a single salvo. So with 10 versus 2 x 5, then 5 of your guys are getting off scott free! One of your two Justicars isn't taking any hits, no matter how many land. ;)

Allright allright haha.

 

:) Maybe I'll use the BC I entered for the Arena.

Do it, anything! A picture of a whip would be fine too if that BC pic wont do.

 

You know, I've generally thought you were spot on in most other topics, so I'm a bit puzzled on why you think this is a fallacy. Do you mean it's not true? Do you mean it's not helpful? I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here, would you elaborate?

I think I mean that it hardly matters much in the sense that it has little to do with the argument I made. Of course your other unit doesn't get shot at, but that's not really an advantage in itself more like a fact... You still lose the same amount of guys with the added risk of losing important guys. Of course you have more justicars, that's an advantage of MSU and was already said so I didn't repeat that.

Is it clear now? If not maybe you could eloborate as I might not have fully understood what you meant haha.

 

No. I hate avatars, icons, and all that other junk. It clutters up my screen with nonsense. I wish there was some way to make it so I didn't have to look at other people's avatars.

Wasn't meant for you :)

[Wildfire]

I think I mean that it hardly matters much in the sense that it has little to do with the argument I made. Of course your other unit doesn't get shot at, but that's not really an advantage in itself more like a fact... You still lose the same amount of guys with the added risk of losing important guys. Of course you have more justicars, that's an advantage of MSU and was already said so I didn't repeat that.

Is it clear now? If not maybe you could eloborate as I might not have fully understood what you meant haha.

 

Well, if you're saying the objective of having a single large squad is to make sure a justicar survives past a shooting phase, the surely having two justicars (one of which is not shot at at all) will do this better? Yes, you may have lost a justicar, but you still have one. In other words: what dies isn't important, it's what survives. And a justicar will have survived in that case.

 

Wasn't meant for you :)

 

My mistake.

[Zhukov]

Fair enough. If you view it over multiple turns though: The advantage will more or less stay the same... The large squad will probably still be large enough to not being forced to take a lot of saves (the more because your smaller squads get smaller too, generating even less wounds), while your other small squad will keep that problem (so that one has to take saves on the justicar too, just another turn). Problem with going this far with analysing is that it gets less relevant as you can't keep viewing things in vacuüm. (other units cause wounds too for example)

 

Overall I think 10 man squads will come better out of this, also in the 'saving the justicar!!!' department.

[Wildfire]

Hmm. Well, I disagree, but there's too many variables for this to be easily mathhammered out. Just my gut feeling, based on nothing more than years of game playing, is that two small squads would make the justicar more survivable than one big squad.

 

Which is not to say I think the MSU approach is necessarily the best. Just that in this one small area (of survivable justicars) that two 5-man squads is better than one 10-man squad.

[Zhukov]

Maybe, I honestly can't tell for sure either so it's a draw I guess ^^

[Abaddonshand]

Something to think about as well is the risk of perils. Of course, if you combat squad a ten man unit, then you are taking two tests, and one on lower leadership, but if you keep the squad together then You only take one test to benefit all ten men. I'd rather take less potentially justicar killing tests myself.

[Gentlemanloser]

On the other hand, with 2 x 5 men squads, you can cover more area with Warp Quake. :)

[Zhukov]

Well you can still combat squad of course. Combat squadding actually is pretty versatile too (yes I like having options a lot if haven't guess yet), you could even go for a 5 man squad with nothing but stormbolters which is still potent with S5. (assuming you took psybolt)

[Chucku]

The biggest pro of 10 man squad is psybolt ammo, as the price of that is fixed.

 

I agree with this.

[Angelis Mortis]

The biggest pro of 10 man squad is psybolt ammo, as the price of that is fixed.

 

I agree with this.

 

So are banners. And to get certain gear you must be at 10.

 

 

On the other hand, with 2 x 5 men squads, you can cover more area with Warp Quake. :(

 

What stops a 10 man squad form combat squading and doing the exact same thing?

[Gentlemanloser]

Something to think about as well is the risk of perils. Of course, if you combat squad a ten man unit, then you are taking two tests, and one on lower leadership, but if you keep the squad together then You only take one test to benefit all ten men. I'd rather take less potentially justicar killing tests myself.

[Angelis Mortis]

Thats not true. Just like with others, your making certain gear more efficient. Pysbolts 2 pts ea for 10 or 4 pts ea for 5. Banner, 5ea +5 attacks, or 2.5 ea and get +10 attacks. I still think 10 is better than 5. Lets look at some math.

 

LoL! That's what I said. :tu:

 

 

You know what, I think I quoted the wrong guy. I must of hit the quote button on yours instead of his by mistake. My apologies because you are saying the same thing. (Now I can't see to find teh guy I was quoting. I must be on crack :( )

[Angelis Mortis]

I'm dissapointed, I hoped at least 1 person would have mentioned the following:

 

Wound allocation.

 

This is (for me and it should be for others too lol) one of thé biggest reasons you might want to choose for 10 man squads.

 

What's the deal?

-You inflict so many wounds with a 10 man squads (even more so with psybolt) that you force your oppenent their squads to constantly take saves on their 'special guys', so meltaguns/sergeants etc. Is this good? Hell yes it is!

-In reverse: When people shoot at your 5 man squads you'll be taking saves on your psycannon guy and the Justicar very often. So yes, it will happen that you lose your justicar and psycannon guy very early. Now with 10 man squads your psycannon guys and justicar is way more 'save', it takes quite a while before you need to take wounds on them. Unless you're of course playing against against other GK players who took also large squads ;)

 

Example:

2x5 man with a psycannon shoot at a 10 man squad. They'll inflict both 3,33 wounds; on average killing 2 or 3 guys of you with no danger of losing an 'important guy'.

1x10 man shoots at one of those 5 man squads. They inflict around 6,66 wounds on average, killing also 2 or 3 guys. However, you got a very decent chance that you killed the justicar and/or psycannon.

 

Just an example; but it really does work like this overall (well especially early game of course) also against almost every other army! Most GH squads are 6-8 man large for example.

 

A 10 man squad, including 2 psycannons and psybolt does on average about 11 - 12 wounds when standing still... Even if you don't stand still (so you losing 4 psycannon shots) still nets you around 9 wounds, which is still very potent.

 

 

I like both btw, MSU or big squads, heck you can combine them in a list too. Personally I like reliability and therefore choose for large squads. Razorbacks are really sweet though.

 

Excellent point. Hadn't thought of it, but you are absolutely Correctamundo Extremis.

[number6]

I'm dissapointed, I hoped at least 1 person would have mentioned the following:

 

Wound allocation.

[...]

I like both btw, MSU or big squads, heck you can combine them in a list too. Personally I like reliability and therefore choose for large squads. Razorbacks are really sweet though.

 

Excellent point. Hadn't thought of it, but you are absolutely Correctamundo Extremis.

Like I said up top, there are benefits to both. But most people seem to be confused as to why MSU builds are ever any good. On the other hand, the benefits (and drawbacks) of max squads appear to be readily apparent. MSU always seems to require far more explanation and "defense".

 

I don't know that I agree with Zhukov about "mixing and matching" MSU with big squads. As in, I literally don't know! ;) That's a tough one. In general, it seems to me that you really need to embrace one build style or another. With the proviso that Marine codexes have the nearly game-breaking bonus of having access to Combat Squads, which is very nearly a Get Out of Jail Free card for 40K army list building. We therefore have a lot more flexibility to mix and match and don't necessarily have to worry so much about the hows and whys of MSU vs Big Squads. Non-marine codexes aren't so lucky. I would love -- LOVE -- for my Tyranids to have a Combat Squad equivalent, for example! :lol:

 

But since we do have combat squads, you can often build a full unit of Terminators (or even Strike Squads, to a lesser extent) and just let the game mission and/or opponent determine whether you ultimately play MSU or not. So very convenient.

 

In this environment, the biggest advantage that MSU has for us (IMHO) is the fact that it gives us access to more vehicle hulls. If you're building MSU GKs (or Marines of any kind) you probably owe it to yourself to buy a vehicle for every unit you take. If you're not willing to do that, just build the big units and be satisfied.