some thunderfire Qs

[greatcrusade08]

hi fellas, i just want to get this stuff right in my head.

 

a t-fire is a 2 man unit with special wound allocation rules as per artillery.. if an Ic joins the unit and for example the unit takes 3 wounds, id have to give 2 to the t-fire right? becase its treated as 2 models and not one.. am i correct?

 

also this one im not so sure on, becuase of the vehicle rules on cover saves (50%), i had a debate with a guy the other other on whether or not a t-fire would get a cover save..

it could be considered a cheesy argument so i let him go with his interpretation.... BUT

as its a 2 model unit only one model has to be in cover to get a cover save on the unit.. for infsntry only a small part of thier body has to be in cover to get a save.. so therefore aslong as a small part of my techmarine is obscured the whole 'unit' gets a cover save.. am i correct on this?

 

i ask because there was a small hill which obscured his lower legs, but my opponent said he could see most of the thunderfire and most of the techmarine therefore no 50% coverage

 

thanks fo your help

[Seahawk]

An IC is never a crewman, as specified in the Artillery entry. If a Artillery unit with an IC joined takes 3 hits (not wounds), they are all lumped onto the artillery part, after which you randomize to either the crewmen or the gun. In essence, an IC cannot be harmed by shooting when joined to an artillery piece; at least, this is how the rules seem to work.

 

As for cover, it's the same as units of MC's and Infantry (Tyranids and Necrons have this advantage). According to the rules for cover, "if half or more models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of its models may take cover saves." Thus, a T-fire (1 Infantry, 1 Vehicle) are in area terrain, the whole unit gets cover because the Infantry counts. The same goes for Tyrants/Tyrant Guard, and Tomb Spyders/Scarabs it's pooped out.

 

Since it was not Area Terrain (because hills are not unless there's also a forest/rock garden/whatever on it), you'd determine cover linearly. This is under "When are models in Cover?" on p.21: "When any part of the target model's body is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover." The techmarine is part of the target and is thus a target model. As long as its head, torso, legs, and arms are in the above situation he's in cover; the lower legs were obscured so yes he was, which means the whole unit gets saves.

[greatcrusade08]

An IC is never a crewman, as specified in the Artillery entry. If a Artillery unit with an IC joined takes 3 hits (not wounds), they are all lumped onto the artillery part, after which you randomize to either the crewmen or the gun. In essence, an IC cannot be harmed by shooting when joined to an artillery piece; at least, this is how the rules seem to work.

Under the artillery rules it does seem to say that, it for some reason ignores the IC, however under shooting at ICs, it says "if the unit they have joined is hit, the controlling player may allocate hits against the characters just like other members of the unit"

 

The techmarine is part of the target and is thus a target model. As long as its head, torso, legs, and arms are in the above situation he's in cover; the lower legs were obscured so yes he was, which means the whole unit gets saves.

sounds good, it does add another element to the defensive potential of the t-fire, although both gun and crew need LOS to fire so youd have to place carefully

it also means you only need to put crewmen in cover and can ovid dangerous terrain on the artillery pice as only the "gun model" needs to take this test (page 55 BRB)

[Seahawk]

Weird, it does says hits...but you don't allocate hits, you allocate wounds. Except in the case of artillery units, you never allocate hits and there aren't even any rules for doing so!

 

Perhaps they were smart enough to include that for the off chance somebody might join an artillery unit. I like to think they just failed at terminology again.

[greatcrusade08]

Weird, it does says hits...but you don't allocate hits, you allocate wounds. Except in the case of artillery units, you never allocate hits and there aren't even any rules for doing so!

 

i know very strange huh?

in this situation it does seem to work though..

Ic joins the unit, you can allocate hits to him or any other member of the unit.

all hits on the artillery 'unit' are then rolled for.

 

you then roll to wound or to damage the gun.

 

assuming this is correct do we treat the artillery piece as a single hit or two (for two models)?

what i mean is, if we have gun, crew and Ic and 3 shots hit the unit, where would we place them

[Seahawk]

Assuming that's how it works (which it can't possibly :)), then you'd consider the IC as one model and the crewman/gun as one model. You'd then randomize any hits between the crewman and gun to figure out what happens.

 

I say it can't possibly work because it says you can allocate hits as normal, but normal = non-existent, so there are non-existent rules for allocating hits which means you don't ever allocate hits which means he can't be "hit." Unless there's a fallacy in my logic train...:rolleyes:

[Frosty the Pyro]

Seems relitively straitforward to me, each hit is rolled for, then all the hits against crew are given to wound rolls and alocated as normal against the infantry section (which I would say includes IC as per the IC rules), just as if they were an infantry unit without the guns at all, the hits that rolled for the guns are then get their AV rolls just like you would with a squadren (except of course for the bit were any glancing or penitrating hit is an automatic destroyed result), completely ignoring the infantry section of the artilery unit.

[greatcrusade08]

Seems relitively straitforward to me, each hit is rolled for, then all the hits against crew are given to wound rolls and alocated as normal against the infantry section (which I would say includes IC as per the IC rules), just as if they were an infantry unit without the guns at all

 

two problems with this, the biggest is under artillery rules it sepcifically says an Ic is not considered part of the crew.. for the 'hit' allocation its only between the gun and crew, there is no 'infantry' allowance.

the second being the IC rules say you can allocate hits to an IC.

 

the trouble is, the Ic rules are obviously written to suggest hes with infantry and the artillery rules are written to suggest there is no Ic attached, so its hard to figure the truth.

i know seahawk is correct by RAW, you dont allocate hits on non artillery models, its done after the wound section.. even though it says after the hit in the BRB (which is the confusing part)

However its not viable in game to shrug my shoulders and say it cant happen.. it would be good to have a practical use of the rules even if it isnt RAW.

 

id say we'd follow the more specific Ic rules and allow allocations to him before we roll for the artillery, my main issue was whether or not to count the artillery as one model or two for 'allocation'

Assuming that's how it works (which it can't possibly ), then you'd consider the IC as one model and the crewman/gun as one model. You'd then randomize any hits between the crewman and gun to figure out what happens.

can people agree with this? would they be happy to consider the t-fire one model for allocation purposes? upto now ive always used them as two figures for allocation

 

Also just to add further confusion, what would happen if i say added cassius to the unit, the 'majority' toughness would then be 6, so wounding the techmarine would use the T6 wouldnt it?

[shatter]

If a template or blast weapon hits both crew and piece, is that two hits or one? If one, no. If two, I'll agree and allocate as the unit is 2 models and an IC, resolving as 'normal' after. Seems toughness would be irrelevant with the hit and wound separation but the 2 IC's wounding, then yep, highest if a choice of two.

 

In lieu of clear rules, being consistent (in how hits/wounds score on the artillery unit 'normally') is important if forced to justify... which I'm pretty sure is what you're after here.

[greatcrusade08]

interesting point shatter, ive always used two models becuase thats whats shown, if the templates hit two models therefore 2 hits/wounds..

 

also your probably right on the T aspect, hits are treated strangely on this one and once hits are specifically locted there is no majority toughness, a crewman has only a crewmans stats after all