A few questions on the creation of a Space Marine Chapter

[Trokair]

Having recently I restarted work on the background of my DIY chapter I have come across several questions that could not answer despite reading a lot of the useful information provided by the good folks here. As such I would like to ask some question in the hope that the community know the answer or can direct me to some information I have missed.

 

I know that when a new chapter is created Geneseed is cultured (presumably on Mars) and the first marines are trained. My question is at what strength (in terms of numbers) does a chapter leave Mars (or the training facility) and head to its new home world?

 

From what I have read I think they leave before they are at full strength, so for now I am assuming about 2/3 strength so about 600 marines. Are there any specific number, and any additional information that might be used to refine any speculation?

 

 

Secondly what sort of equipment will a chapter start with?

 

My Chapter is of the 26th founding so very young, as such they will only have the basics. So Rhino, Razorback and Predators for tanks, a small number of bikes, jumppacks and maybe landspeeders. The chapter has no Landraiders, Dreadnoughts, Terminator armour, and similar rare/hightech equipment, there is also a reduced amount of plasma weapons, Melta weapons and Lascannons.

Connect to this is how many ships a chapter would start with and of what size they would be?

 

 

As I am a fan of Artificer armour I would like the chapter to have a few, between half and a full dozen. To further this end my Chapter will be a Salamander or Iron Hand successor (the two most technical inclined and skilled gene lines, though probably not directly, but it would mean that the marines that train the chapter at the beginning are more likely to instil a sense of craftsmanship and technological reverence). So my question is how easy/likely it is for a young chapter to have/obtained several such suits?

[Olis]

I know that when a new chapter is created Geneseed is cultured (presumably on Mars) and the first marines are trained. My question is at what strength (in terms of numbers) does a chapter leave Mars (or the training facility) and head to its new home world?

 

I've always assumed it was full codex strength chapters. Minus scouts. So 900-odd marines I'd reckon. I haven't got proof or sources but it seems logical.

 

Secondly what sort of equipment will a chapter start with?

 

My Chapter is of the 26th founding so very young, as such they will only have the basics. So Rhino, Razorback and Predators for tanks, a small number of bikes, jumppacks and maybe landspeeders. No Landraiders, Dreadnoughts, Terminator armour, and similar rare/hightec equipment, there is also a reduced amount of plasma weapons, Melta weapons and Lascannons. Connect to this is how many ships a chapter would start with and of what size they would be?

 

I'd think there'd be little to no presence in terms of terminators and dreadnoughts unless they were 'donated' by the parent chapter. Other stuff like weapons? They're coming from Sol (usually) and that's where Mars is. The most productive forgeworld of them all. Plasma weapons, Melta weapons and Lascannons aren't an issue. Conversion beamers are though, as are rarer marks of vehicles I believe.

 

As to fleet size, I dunno, One Battle Barge and three strike cruisers? Maybe a little more? And of course a few smaller vessels as well - several, really. Not sure but a dozen smaller vessels is probably an upper limit for now imho.

 

So my question is how easy/likely it is for a young chapter to have/obtained several such suits?

 

Depends on your backstory, I suppose, but drafted in officers (especially the higher ranked individuals such as captains) might have a suit in their possession. Also the AdMech may or may not have provided some.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Edit: Typo.

[soddinnutter]

The general consensus around here about how a chapter starts is that sufficient uncorrupted gene-seed is taken from the Mars Vaults.

 

Then about a hundred thousand, or some such probably higher number, potential Aspirants are collected from around the Imperium. Possibly put on ice for later use.

 

Then the Mechanicus send out a general summons to chapters of that same gene-line.

 

A Training Cadre arrives.

 

They are given the keys to the battle barge and smaller support vessels, which are loaded with the basic equipment.

 

They are given serfs of various skills needed, or they bring their own from their parent chapter.

 

They are then set adrift in the sea of stars and receive less and less help from outside authorities and ask for even less.

 

They begin to take part in the endless wars as soon as the Training Cadre, who are probably by now well established as the heads of the emergent chapter, decide they are ready. Exact numbers may vary greatly. some may charge forward as soon as they are able to relieve the boredom of thirty years with no real battle worthy of mention. Others may wait till they are better trained and of higher numbers before they take on the galactic hordes.

 

This is all just off the top of my head. It may be untrue to the official fluff.

 

They can not take a home-world directly from the Imperium as they are not subject to Imperial Law, don't pay tax, have relative freedom of religion and count as their own little empire for a given value of 'own' and 'empire'. They can be given one if the Imperium wants to encourage them to stay in one place and bolster it's defenses or they can capture an inhabited but non-imperial world in the name of glorious conquest or they can lay claim to an uninhabited world and ship a population in from elsewhere and shape the civilisation to suit themselves.

 

Or they can remain fleet based and simply recruit from where ever they want to. Its worked for the Imperial Fists since the first founding. They can recruit from any world they see fit, as the local Imperial authorities are unlikely to say no to their faces or for that matter notice on hive worlds.

 

The only real no-no on recruitment is Forge-worlds. The local Tech-magos may very likely say no, and intimidation will not work on someone who is known to keep Titans in his garage.

 

In terms of equipment to start with a 26th founding chapter will only have the very basics. Basic fleet of one battle barge and support craft. No anti-grave vehicles, No terminators, no dreadnaughts, no MkVIII Power Armour, no/very few exotic varieties of tanks, no/few plasma or melta weapons, fewer power weapons, fewer or complete absence of things in the reliquary. If it is expensive by Astartes standards then you will not have it, with the exception of anything the Training Cadre was wearing when they stepped off the shuttle.

 

Artificer Armour is just extremely well made Power Armour of indeterminate Mk. in theory you could have an Artificer suit of MkII or even MkI armour that has been gradually altered and adapted over the millenia with custom parts and high performance spare components and all manner of optional extras. Probably won't look anything like it started out looking by the end of the process and may even arguably be a completely different suit of armour if every single piece has been replaced one at a time over the centuries.

 

If you want Artificer Armour then i would go with the children of Vulkan. They make technological wonders in their spare time as a hobby. The Children of Ferrus Mannus seem to just like complicated stuff like the super high-tech, ultra-devastating, very expensive weapons. The decedents of Vulkan just like making the basic stuff to exceptionally high quality.

[Ferrata]

A lot of the answers boil down to "We just don't really know". There isn't enough to hang your hat on so just go with what works with your story. If you turn up and mention that your 26th Founder has a full company of Terminators, people will raise eyebrows. But not mentioning them won't raise eyebrows, people will just presume you have a few but nothing special to talk about. The same goes for the other restricted equipment, the more you talk about it the more you make people focus on it, the more eyebrow raising there is. Take the fleet for example. I've presumed a new chapter might have two Battle Barges at the most, more than likely one. That carries 400 marines max (off the top of my head). Add in 3-5 Strike Cruisers (100 each) and we've almost reached the full chapter can be travelling at once. You are probably looking at 2/4 for a Fleet Chapter. But if you don't mention it people won't question it. My Wings of Death have 3 "Battle Barge" ships, one granted to them on their creation, one they stole and one they got a Chaos Shipyard to make :blink:

 

As for leaving numbers, again, what ever works best for your story. I've never really thought too much about the time between 1000 marines and them actually seeing action :D

[Olis]

The only real no-no on recruitment is Forge-worlds. The local Tech-magos may very likely say no, and intimidation will not work on someone who is known to keep Titans in his garage.

 

I had a snigger at that. Damned big garage... :blink:

[soddinnutter]

Or a very small Titan

[Trokair]

Thank you all for your replies.

 

So from what you have all said there are no known answers to my question, just logical deduction and reasonable guesses as long as it all sounds reasonable. I can work with that, as I have so far, but I thought I would cheek.

 

Maybe it’s a pet Titan to fit in a normal garage, with a bowl and little collar. ;)

 

 

So a Battle Barge, three Strike Cruisers and five Rapid Strike Cruisers would sound ok for the starting fleet of a chapter?

 

I do have a follow on question, how are Fortress Monasteries built?

My current guess is that the AdMech dispatches a group of Tech Adepts with specific Machinery.

[soddinnutter]

Depends on the state of the world it is being built on.

 

Things a Fortress needs:

 

Fusion reactor power everything and a couple of backups to prevent blackouts, a really big freezer for the gene-seed, some stasis fields for the reliquary, water purifier and nutrient-synthesis systems to diminish the effects of siege, Void Shield generators to black in coming nuclear warheads, really thick armour for when the Void Shields just aren't quite enough, weapons placements, Storage space, surgery, Library, place of worship, basic training facilities and somewhere for the serfs to stay.

 

Can be designed by a Tech-marine. Can be designed well by an architect, not necessarily from the Mechanicus.

 

Could look like anything.

 

Commandeer a Spire from a Hive-world and move the stuff in.

Build it on the bottom of the sea in art deco style.

Build it on top of the highest mountain for the impressive look.

Build it as a massive system of deep underground Fallout Vault looking bunkers for security.

On the dark side of the moon for the seclusion and the quiet.

Place a Ramilies Class Star Fort in high orbit and live in the local dock-yard for all the passing news and trade

Spread everything across the surface of the planet thinly to deny anyone a single target.

 

Assuming the world is not populated by knuckle dragging stone-age degenerates local labor could be employed for the construction, which means that local architectural style may be adopted to a greater or lesser extent.

[Olis]

soddinnutter has given some pretty good (deducted) information for a Fortress Monastery. It's a very good guideline, but a guideline nonetheless. If you stuck exactly to what he said you can't go far wrong. ;)

 

And your fleet sounds fine. I'd give it a greenlight. :confused:

[NightrawenII]

Connect to this is how many ships a chapter would start with and of what size they would be?

Depends on whether is your Chapter fleet-based or planet-based.

 

The fleet-based will have more and specialized ships.

 

I'd think there'd be little to no presence in terms of terminators and dreadnoughts unless they were 'donated' by the parent chapter. Other stuff like weapons? They're coming from Sol (usually) and that's where Mars is. The most productive forgeworld of them all. Plasma weapons, Melta weapons and Lascannons aren't an issue. Conversion beamers are though, as are rarer marks of vehicles I believe.

Well, the Ryza is noted as the only one Forgeworld with significant understanding/knowledge of plasma weaponry.

 

no MkVIII Power Armour

Eh, Why?

AFAIK, the young Chapters have/use more Mk.VIII suits because older Chapter are suspicious of the 'new' design.

 

I'm with Ferrata on this one; the more details, the deeper in minefield. :confused:

[Olis]

I'd think there'd be little to no presence in terms of terminators and dreadnoughts unless they were 'donated' by the parent chapter. Other stuff like weapons? They're coming from Sol (usually) and that's where Mars is. The most productive forgeworld of them all. Plasma weapons, Melta weapons and Lascannons aren't an issue. Conversion beamers are though, as are rarer marks of vehicles I believe.

Well, the Ryza is noted as the only one Forgeworld with significant understanding/knowledge of plasma weaponry.

 

Are you sure? I was under the impression that Mars was the hub of all knowledge for the Adeptus Mechanicus ergo they know how to produce half-decent plasma weapons. :)

[Banelord]

The fourth, I want to describe the one unique piece of wargear in the chapter, the Land Raider Plasmordius. Basically a Land Raider with plasma cannons on the sides and two on the top. (fluff wise, is that possible? I looked at the vehicles in the Space Marine codex and noticed that plasma cannons are not permitted on pretty much anything but dreadnoughts.)

 

How about this: Instead of an STC (which, after some digging, I see fall into the category of mega-awesome-stupendous-Emperor-level-awesome. I am nixing that.) I will just have the chapter master receive a vision from the Omnissiah about plasma coolant on his little 'vision crusade'. He shows the AdMech on the nearest forgeworld (luckily in the same sub-sector) and they put it under review (could be tech-heresy after all!). Meanwhile, the chapter master decides this is where the chapter will start out.

 

Looking through some older fluff.

“As doctrine within the Adeptus Mechanicus changed, the old style plasma weapons were branded Fabrus Excommunicata, engines of destruction that had fallen from approval of the Machine God.” Codex:Chaos 2nd edition

 

Older plasma technology was highly dangerous, bur far more powerful. These are the weapons that the Chaos Legions are supposedly still using. Pre-Heresy MK 1 Heavy Plasma Gun (Cannon) could only be mounted on Dreadnoughts due to the amount of coolant needed to maintain a "hail of sustained fire plasma bursts". It could be that your chapter found/is still using this Fabrus Excommunicata tech? ;) Don’t how you would work that into your fluff, but its intresting. :P

[Olis]

Damn it. That's another codex I'll have to get a hold of... :D

[Magos Takatus]

To be honest, though, the background about old/new Plasma Weapons is pretty redundant now. At the time in 2nd edition, Plasma guns fired one high-powered shot and then spent the next turn recharging. The Chaos Plasma weapons, on the other hand, fired more rapidly, but they could overheat. When 3rd edition came along, everyone had the same rapid-firing, overheating deathtraps, which kinda left that fluff justifying the rules slightly outdated. :)

[NightrawenII]

To be honest, though, the background about old/new Plasma Weapons is pretty redundant now. At the time in 2nd edition, Plasma guns fired one high-powered shot and then spent the next turn recharging. The Chaos Plasma weapons, on the other hand, fired more rapidly, but they could overheat. When 3rd edition came along, everyone had the same rapid-firing, overheating deathtraps, which kinda left that fluff justifying the rules slightly outdated. <_<

This.

With the Gets Hot! rule on every plasma, the above fluff is rather redundant.

 

Edit:

Ryza

Renowned for plasma reactor and magnetic containment field technology. - Imperial Armour I, pg. 8

 

For instance, Ryza excels in the replication of plasma technology, including the complex art of magnetic containment fields. Only Mars is the master of all technical arts and can command access to the archives of any Forge World. - Imperial Armour I, pg. 11

 

Only one Forge World still manufactures the Executioner for issue to Imperial Guard: Ryza, renowned within the Adeptus Mechanicus for its devout worship of the mystical arts of plasma reactor and magnetic containment field technology construction. - Imperial Armour I, pg. 61

[Banelord]

To be honest, though, the background about old/new Plasma Weapons is pretty redundant now. At the time in 2nd edition, Plasma guns fired one high-powered shot and then spent the next turn recharging. The Chaos Plasma weapons, on the other hand, fired more rapidly, but they could overheat. When 3rd edition came along, everyone had the same rapid-firing, overheating deathtraps, which kinda left that fluff justifying the rules slightly outdated. :)

This.

With the Gets Hot! rule on every plasma, the above fluff is rather redundant.

 

 

 

A change in rules does not necessary make the fluff redundant. How do we know that the older the old style plasma weapons were even more dangerous than they are now? Or that there is other tech that is labelled Fabrus Excommunicata? ;) I’m not saying break the fluff just to bend it a little. :D

[Olis]

So... reeling the thread back in to be vaguely on topic - I don't think any of the information provided precludes Mars from providing plasma weaponry. Granted Ryza excel at the applications of such technology and is widely known for it, however I do feel it doesn't nullify plasma weapon manufacture on the red planet.

 

I'm perfectly willing to be wrong here. But I'd need sources and/or reasoning to dislodge me. :D

[Arkangilos]

For instance, Ryza excels in the replication of plasma technology, including the complex art of magnetic containment fields. Only Mars is the master of all technical arts and can command access to the archives of any Forge World. - Imperial Armour I, pg. 11

 

Only one Forge World still manufactures the Executioner for issue to Imperial Guard: Ryza, renowned within the Adeptus Mechanicus for its devout worship of the mystical arts of plasma reactor and magnetic containment field technology construction. - Imperial Armour I, pg. 61

 

Ah yes, the Executioner Imperial Guard Leman Russ... I was unaware that because ONE forgeworld was the only one to still make the Executioner, Mars was incapable of making ANY plasma tank.

 

 

I side with Olisredan on this one, Mars can still produce whatever plasma tech they want.

 

I will use this quote, and bold my point, to aid me.

 

For instance, Ryza excels in the replication of plasma technology, including the complex art of magnetic containment fields. Only Mars is the master of all technical arts and can command access to the archives of any Forge World. - Imperial Armour I, pg. 11

 

I would also like to add, the word excel would mean that others DO make it, it is just better at making it. You can not excel at something if you have nothing to be compared to.

[chuk dred]

This thread led to some interesting background fluff on plasma weapons, but i did get interested based on the original points. I was thinking to make my chapter from the latest founding, but does this mean it should be poorly equipped to reflect that?

How long would you suggest it would take to get up to full arms? i want to make a blood angels successor chapter, and i would like to have EVERYTHING! essentially a blood angels army, just the freedom to colour it how i feel and give my own background to characters, essentially MY version of blood angels.

What would be a believable time frame to go from scratch to full?

 

Also, Tau warlock, the advice about detail is spot on. The more you have the more room for error you create. I cant stop myself from going over board, and then i have to fact check and research loads, make amendments, reresearch, go back, see how the changes fit, change all the other pieces to make the new parts fit.

If you doont want to restrict yourself too much, just change the founding. If you are trying to represent a new chapter and want to just have limited weapons say that your chapters located far out and running out of supplies. Good luck if you go that direction, its a long way from what i am after.

[NightrawenII]

The latest Founding was 261 years ago, so you will be hard pressed to get things like ships, TDA, Dreadnoughts and all sorts of relic and superfine pieces of equipment.

And it's quite questionable whether the BAs gene-seed will be used due their curse.

[Trokair]

Well that went of topic, interesting thought.

 

As I see it a young chapter is not poorly equipped, it has the normal standard equipment to function it just does not have many (or any) of the rarer equipment. Amongst the rare equipments are Terminator suits, Landraiders, Landspeeder, Drednoughts and so on. It might have a few, two land raiders instead of 20, one unit worth of terminator armour instead of one companies worth and so on. I just like the idea of a chapter that does not have all this awesome equipment but instead has to rely on more standard equipment such as marines in rhinos or razor back, predators as the support tank instead of land raiders and so on.

 

So if you want your 26th founding army to have such rare equipment you can, say that the rare equipment was gifted to them by the parent chapter or that there is a forge world nearby. Or simply go back a founding or two. Each to their own. :P