Midwest Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Just got around to reading and finishing Prospero Burns, had a question: PB seems to suggest that the power of 'true names' applies equally for Daemons against mortals as they do for mortals against daemons (e.g. Grey Knights using a Daemon's true name to banish or control it). AFAIK I've never seen this suggested before in 40k-lore. Has this shown up elsewhere? More importantly, how does Chaos not win, if all it takes to defeat a mortal - including a Marine or Custodes - is to just find out their name? I get that, arguably, with most Marines, their "current" name is not their true one, and with the Custodes those names are hidden as best as possible. But still. Seems like all Chaos needs is a phonebook to annihilate an entire Imperial Guard army or naval fleet. I dunno, just seemed like an interesting concept whose implications weren't fully thought out - unless I overlooked / misunderstood something? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228517-question-about-daemonic-influence-in-prospero-burns/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee265 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 that explains why the phone book gets people killed for heresey by the inqusition I knew something wasn't adding up. :lol: Seriously hadn't thought of it before though its probably a true name thing and in certain circles of belief those are never just your name. also I don't remember reading it before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228517-question-about-daemonic-influence-in-prospero-burns/#findComment-2738961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 It makes sense against warp creatures but not against mortals. Maybe the daemon was using sorcery and not just 'the power of names'. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if a sorcerer started throwing people around without touching them. Maybe this was not well thought out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228517-question-about-daemonic-influence-in-prospero-burns/#findComment-2738969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
H4L Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I thought that was why big E was called... big E... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228517-question-about-daemonic-influence-in-prospero-burns/#findComment-2739057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 PB seems to suggest that the power of 'true names' applies equally for Daemons against mortals as they do for mortals against daemons (e.g. Grey Knights using a Daemon's true name to banish or control it). Weeeee how much does GW like ripping off religion, lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228517-question-about-daemonic-influence-in-prospero-burns/#findComment-2739085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 It makes sense against warp creatures but not against mortals. Maybe the daemon was using sorcery and not just 'the power of names'. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if a sorcerer started throwing people around without touching them. Maybe this was not well thought out. This. Not only was it hamfisted in, presumably to explain the ridiculous ease the daemon had in manipulating a freaking custodes or threatening that many astartes of which some were psykers, it also touches on the cheapening of Russ' hatred of Magnus and sorcery as one of the primary reasons he burned the world, rather than trying to apprehend the Crimson King. I did NOT enjoy the "mwehheeeheee its CHAOS!" aspect Abnett threw in there. I felt it was unnecessary and poorly done. Rather like "The Warp/A Wizard did it!" it is too easy. He tried to show the Space Wolves weren't feral maniacs...while still having them act like wild dogs. So he tried to show that noooo Russ didn't have a hate on for Magnus..umm,...because a Daemon manipulated things and uhhh he yelled into a guys face who may or may not have been a conduit for Magnus. Ugh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228517-question-about-daemonic-influence-in-prospero-burns/#findComment-2739242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I got the impression that it was a really powerful daemon, maybe a Greater Daemon, so would make sense for the most powerful daemons to have better powers than marine librarians etc. And it doesnt make it all powerful, it would have to find a mind weak enough to pull the names from, which was why its power didnt work on Bjorn/Bear because the remembrancer got his name wrong, but it couldnt pull the name from Bjorns or any other marines mind because they are trained to be strong and to resist enemy psykers. Thats what i thought anyway Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228517-question-about-daemonic-influence-in-prospero-burns/#findComment-2741317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I got the impression that it was a really powerful daemon, maybe a Greater Daemon, so would make sense for the most powerful daemons to have better powers than marine librarians etc. And it doesnt make it all powerful, it would have to find a mind weak enough to pull the names from, which was why its power didnt work on Bjorn/Bear because the remembrancer got his name wrong, but it couldnt pull the name from Bjorns or any other marines mind because they are trained to be strong and to resist enemy psykers. Thats what i thought anyway Problem with that. If he was using the human's mind for names, pulling them out of his head and thereby rendering Bjorn immune because the human didnt know his name....how did the Custodes get affected because the human certainly did not know his full name. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228517-question-about-daemonic-influence-in-prospero-burns/#findComment-2741428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Posted April 29, 2011 Author Share Posted April 29, 2011 I guess my main issue is the nature of the daemonic in 40k. It seems to me that it is fairly easy for a daemon (let alone a god) to determine any given mortal's "true" name. Now, technically, one could argue that the Imperium's bureaucracy cuts both ways. On the one hand, it seems easy to think that somewhere every citizen's name is logged - given both the Imperium's inherently bureaucratic nature as well as its paranoia (and tax needs) - yet at the same time one can easily imagine that on hive worlds like Necromunda, at some point the system breaks down and amongst the underhive at least, such things just aren't tracked very well. Or similar with feral worlds and whatnot. Having said that, at the same time I don't recall seeing any mention in 40k background that Imperial upper class citizens, admin workers, soldiers, etc., that amongst any of the classes that ARE likely to have their 'real' names cataloged, that amongst them there's any sort of tradition of assuming one or more 'fake' names to hide their real ones. Given that daemons use this exact trick as a way of preventing their enemies from gaining power over them, if true names posed a similar threat to humans, I would think that this would be a widespread tactic because now all Chaos needs is access to the equivalent of a telephone book or registry - they don't even need weak humans to pry names from. Having said that, the new/current Grey Knight background (regarding their taking on new names) is about the only thing I can think of that comes close to such a practice being used in the Imperium. It just seems like it's not much to extrapolate a scenario in which Chaos could enslave or destroy entire ships and IG regiments simply by gaining access to a personnel log. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228517-question-about-daemonic-influence-in-prospero-burns/#findComment-2741582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I assumed it was the style of magic being used Some styles allow you to throw fireballs Others allow you to call down lightning Some allow you to use the enemies name against them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228517-question-about-daemonic-influence-in-prospero-burns/#findComment-2741718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I got the impression that it was a really powerful daemon, maybe a Greater Daemon, so would make sense for the most powerful daemons to have better powers than marine librarians etc. And it doesnt make it all powerful, it would have to find a mind weak enough to pull the names from, which was why its power didnt work on Bjorn/Bear because the remembrancer got his name wrong, but it couldnt pull the name from Bjorns or any other marines mind because they are trained to be strong and to resist enemy psykers. Thats what i thought anyway Problem with that. If he was using the human's mind for names, pulling them out of his head and thereby rendering Bjorn immune because the human didnt know his name....how did the Custodes get affected because the human certainly did not know his full name. The Custodes was introduced as Amon, and that was the first part of his name i think? (Dont have the book in front of me) So the Custodes would recognise that as his identity, So even though it wasnt his full name it was still enough, because it was his name.. if that makes sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228517-question-about-daemonic-influence-in-prospero-burns/#findComment-2741817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 I got the impression that it was a really powerful daemon, maybe a Greater Daemon, so would make sense for the most powerful daemons to have better powers than marine librarians etc. And it doesnt make it all powerful, it would have to find a mind weak enough to pull the names from, which was why its power didnt work on Bjorn/Bear because the remembrancer got his name wrong, but it couldnt pull the name from Bjorns or any other marines mind because they are trained to be strong and to resist enemy psykers. Thats what i thought anyway Problem with that. If he was using the human's mind for names, pulling them out of his head and thereby rendering Bjorn immune because the human didnt know his name....how did the Custodes get affected because the human certainly did not know his full name. The Custodes was introduced as Amon, and that was the first part of his name i think? (Dont have the book in front of me) So the Custodes would recognise that as his identity, So even though it wasnt his full name it was still enough, because it was his name.. if that makes sense. To which my response would be "No" and "I don't really buy that." It was one part of his much much much longer name which the Daemon knew wound around him which, again, the human did not know about and, more to the point, that sort of "name power" has normally only been applied against daemons, rather than for them. It seemed a hamfisted way of having an unnecessary conversation with a deamon for no real purpose, other than show "Oh boy, good thing Bear is immune, unlike the Custodes and Librarian who have resistances to such things, just because the human did not know his name!" *shrug* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228517-question-about-daemonic-influence-in-prospero-burns/#findComment-2742089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 I agree that it wasnt the best way to go about making the daemon stronger, but i was just thinking of ways it could logically work. I'm more suprised that noone at Nikea sensed a daemon, you'd think that the Emperor would have known it was there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228517-question-about-daemonic-influence-in-prospero-burns/#findComment-2742330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 I agree that it wasnt the best way to go about making the daemon stronger, but i was just thinking of ways it could logically work. I'm more suprised that noone at Nikea sensed a daemon, you'd think that the Emperor would have known it was there. You`d think someone would have noticed a gunfight going on and someone would have apprehended TS Amon... Its like PB Nikaea went on in a different timeline then the one in TS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228517-question-about-daemonic-influence-in-prospero-burns/#findComment-2742381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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