Rules Question

[MagicMan]

I was playing a game against Orks yesterday, and my opponent placed his Dethkoptas in the middle of a big mob of Boyz.

 

 

Now looking at the rulebook, it says if you have to fire through another unit, the other unit gets a cover save.

 

 

However,

 

1. The Dethkoptas fly above the Orks.

 

 

2. I remember the thing about interweaving units to give both cover-saves as being FAQ'd as wrong.

 

 

So whats the deal?

 

Even if you can just point me to the right page (I have the AoBR rulebook.) that would be great.

[MagicMan]

P.S.

 

 

I realised i didn't make it abundantly clear, but i was wondering if the Dethkoptas would get a cover save against my shooting.

 

 

If the orks in front of them would also provide a cover save to me, then whoop whoop...

[Something Wycked]

Yep, the boyz would give both the koptas and you a cover save when the shooting is at/from the koptas since intervening models grant cover saves to other non-MC/vehicle models.

[Tanhausen]

Aren't DK vehicles? If they are, then they need a 50% obscure to get cover.

 

If they are "jetbikes"...what Wycked said.

 

What got faqed was that if you intermingle 2 infantry squads, they don't provide each other cover saves.

[MagicMan]

I think they're jetbikes, they have wounds and attacks and stuff.

 

 

And ok thanks guys. Seems kinda dumb to me, like going back to the ''screening'' of 3rd (or was it 4th) edition, but eh.

[dswanick]

Now looking at the rulebook, it says if you have to fire through another unit, the other unit gets a cover save.

 

However,

 

1. The Dethkoptas fly above the Orks.

Actually, the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook Pg.21 says - "If the target is partially hidden from the firer's view by other models". This is reinforced in the earlier section on terrain - "Firers may of course shoot over intervening terrain if they are tall enough or high up on some terrain piece so that their line of sight is completely clear."

So if your firers could see the entire DK model over the intervening unit they would not get a cover save as your firers are firing over, not through, said unit.

[djhg]

The same applies to particularly tall infantry models firing over shorter units.

 

Best example I can give is Tyranid Warriors shooting over a unit of Termagants who are directly in front.

The warriors care able to see clean over the screening unit and so give no cover save to their targets, however, return fire draws LOS that is partially blocks by the shorter Termagants. Just tall enough to grant a cover save tot he Warriors, but short enough to be easily seen over if the Warriors are close enough.

 

Oh the joys (And broken loopholes) of TLOS.

[MagicMan]

Actually, the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook Pg.21 says - "If the target is partially hidden from the firer's view by other models". This is reinforced in the earlier section on terrain - "Firers may of course shoot over intervening terrain if they are tall enough or high up on some terrain piece so that their line of sight is completely clear."

So if your firers could see the entire DK model over the intervening unit they would not get a cover save as your firers are firing over, not through, said unit.

 

 

 

 

Yeah honestly, that was what i had said, and we said we'd apply that for the game until one of us could check it.

 

 

 

TLOS :P . It causes so many little disagreements because of how stupidly its implemented.

 

 

Thanks for the help guys.

 

 

 

 

++ Careful with the colourful language. Although it didn't trigger the swear filter - neither is it the kind of thing that heeds the B&C's family-friendly policy. I ++

[Frosty the Pyro]

The same applies to particularly tall infantry models firing over shorter units.

 

Best example I can give is Tyranid Warriors shooting over a unit of Termagants who are directly in front.

The warriors care able to see clean over the screening unit and so give no cover save to their targets, however, return fire draws LOS that is partially blocks by the shorter Termagants. Just tall enough to grant a cover save tot he Warriors, but short enough to be easily seen over if the Warriors are close enough.

 

Oh the joys (And broken loopholes) of TLOS.

 

its hardly a loophole, or even remotely broken. Hell thats half the purpose of walls, to provide you with a save but not the folks your shooting at.

[Arnil]

Also your example of the Tyranid warriors shooting over hormagaunts or termagaunts is a perfect example of why TLOS works. In a real battle you WOULD get a chance to duck behind the poor sap in front of you if people started shooting just like how walls are used this way. As a marine player i personally forget the advantages of cover most days but since ive been playing a bit of tyranids and my girl friend's Dark Eldar ive really come to apprechiate(Spelling?) cover saves. Anyway i digress...

 

That screen of little bugs is what keeps a tyranid warrior granting synapse and getting it into close combat with the marines that are erradicating those little bugs in droves! If it wasn't for the TLOS rule or something similar then Tyranids wouldn't be as viable an army or indeed ANY low armor save army. If a Guard Army shooting over a trench wall meant that the enemy got a cover save from the guardsmen shooting their own trench then you'd see more guard rushes to be honest or more all tank armies(Shhh don't tell GW this they love selling guard tanks) TLOS is annoying unless your using it right!

 

Of course us Marine players carry our cover with us! Ceramite 3+ Armor save!

[Grimtooth]

TLOS is pretty bad sometimes.

 

I was playing a horrible cheater in a tournament and one of his many attempts was to look through a doorway with his tank and claim he could see my whole rhino and that the entire building was not obscuring him from shooting at the rhino.

 

I ended up beating him pretty badly despite the numerous attempts at flat out cheating to which he then accused me of stalling. Hahahahahahah!

[DarkGuard]

I'm pretty sure that you measure LoS from the gun of a vehicle when shooting with said vehicle, so as long as the gun could see the whole of the Rhino, even if the vehicle couldn't, you wouldn't get the cover save. If the gun can't see the whole of the Rhino but the vehicle can, you would get the cover save as the it's the gun that matters with vehicles, as opposed to infantry where it's the head that matters.

[Grimtooth]

I'm pretty sure that you measure LoS from the gun of a vehicle when shooting with said vehicle, so as long as the gun could see the whole of the Rhino, even if the vehicle couldn't, you wouldn't get the cover save. If the gun can't see the whole of the Rhino but the vehicle can, you would get the cover save as the it's the gun that matters with vehicles, as opposed to infantry where it's the head that matters.

 

It wasn't a matter of the gun barrel LOS as it was him squinting his eyes so the perspective of the doorway fit over the Rhino. The Rhino was obscured by the building, the player was just using the whole, "I squeeze your head" eye squint to fit the whole Rhino in the doorway.

[DarkGuard]

Fair enough, that's just not on. To be honest I think there's always a little bit of this among most players, it's scatter dice, with one player turning it slightly one way and the other doing the opposite. It's instinctive, but normally it's small enough that the middle ground is easily established. In this case it seems like he was way over the top with it, and I'm glad you beat him soundly.