The Case for Purgators

[hattusa]

I call them Purgators, Purgation Squads. I find them much maligned among Grey Knight players and so here is my defense of the unit. Purifiers are not a sufficient replacement to them in most cases. Purifiers cost more to get four psycannons at the lowest possible cost. Purifiers are wasting their potential if they are just fire support as they are a close combat specialist unit to me. Purgators' Justicar can have a teleporter homer, Purifiers' Knight of Flame cannot, thats important in a teleporter-heavy army. Astral Aim is a great psychic power for fire support. Even with ten men, Purgators can be worth taking because they fulfill a fundamentally different role than Purifiers (fire support rather than close combat). I hope this settles the matter.

[breng77]

I think the biggest issue with Purgation squads, is that they are competing with Dreads, and while they can get 4 Psycannons for cheap, they can at most fire 2 unless they get out of their ride. I am playing around with some lists using them (and purifiers) to spam Psycannons, but again I think that the Psyfleman dreads are a better buy, in many lists.

[hattusa]

Are you referring to psyautocannon Dreads (two shots on each arm, for four total strength 8 no rending)? You dont need three of them! Two of them yeah ok makes sense, but theres room for one squad of Purgators. And who says youre never gonna shoot with all of them? They can shoot form cover! One lucky hit kills a Dread but shooting a unit of 6 guys (I use 6 guys in a Razorback) behind cover is not as easy. Plus you have two Dreads at least (including Vens even more) plus Purgators. Thats a lot of targets that optimally need to combatted with different units and weapons.

[kalbik]

It would be good to take an inquisitor list, leave the monkeys in the trees and drive your Purgators around the board in some chimeras.

[Gentlemanloser]

Purgation units suck.

 

Whether they are 4 Psycannon, or 4 Inicnerator.

 

They don't provide anything that other units don't (unless You *really* want 4 Psycannons, on 5 men, and you don't want to CS a 10 man Pruifier unit...), and thier special Psychic Power is next to worthless.

 

Ignoring LoS with the true LoS game and access to 12" moving transports is bad. Really bad. Now if Purgators had a power that eithe rincreased range (an awesome way to get 36" Psycannons back), or ignored Cover saves, then they would be worth the slot.

 

Otherwise, Dreads (even a Psybolt/Assault Cannon version) and DreadKnights will always be a better choice.

[Grimtooth]

Are you referring to psyautocannon Dreads (two shots on each arm, for four total strength 8 no rending)? You dont need three of them! Two of them yeah ok makes sense, but theres room for one squad of Purgators. And who says youre never gonna shoot with all of them? They can shoot form cover! One lucky hit kills a Dread but shooting a unit of 6 guys (I use 6 guys in a Razorback) behind cover is not as easy. Plus you have two Dreads at least (including Vens even more) plus Purgators. Thats a lot of targets that optimally need to combatted with different units and weapons.

 

In a Razorback or with a Razorback? So far I have read one account of placing them with a Razorback, completely out of LoS behind the Razorback, using their no-LoS psychic power to shoot. Not as reliable as rifledreads because when using that power they are giving everything, including vehicles, a 4+ cover save.

[spartan249]

I strongly disagree that Purgation squads are useless. Astral Aim is quite a killer power, as it makes area defense a hell of a lot easier. It's one thing to have a devastator squad that can be shot at from across the board. It's another to have a purgation squad you can't even see, only to be surprised when you get shot by a full unit of them from out of LoS.

 

Their main advantage is their ability to shoot without getting shot. It's something no one else can do, and I think sometimes, they hold the clear advantage over rifle dreads or dreadknights.

[DeathKorpsman]

I call them Purgators, Purgation Squads. I find them much maligned among Grey Knight players and so here is my defense of the unit. Purifiers are not a sufficient replacement to them in most cases. Purifiers cost more to get four psycannons at the lowest possible cost. Purifiers are wasting their potential if they are just fire support as they are a close combat specialist unit to me. Purgators' Justicar can have a teleporter homer, Purifiers' Knight of Flame cannot, thats important in a teleporter-heavy army. Astral Aim is a great psychic power for fire support. Even with ten men, Purgators can be worth taking because they fulfill a fundamentally different role than Purifiers (fire support rather than close combat). I hope this settles the matter.

 

A 10 man squad of Purifiers with 4 x Psycannons and no other upgrades costs the EXACT SAME as a 10 man Purgation squad with 4 x Psycannons. Doubling the cost of a 5 man squad with weapon upgrades, when it isn't something like a Devastator squad that is going to sit back and pound stuff at range, seems unnecessarily dangerous. So if that is what you are talking about with 'lowest possible cost' then you are talking about a really expensive unit that is pretty easy to kill off. Furthermore, if you are buying all 4 psycannons for that squad then you are not able to shoot them all out of a transport. This means getting out or letting your shots go to waste. With only 5 men in your lowest cost scenario the Purgation squad is going to get cut down in a hurry. A five man Purifier squad with 2 x Psycannons costs just as much as a 5 man Purgation squad with 2 x psycannons and is more effective outside of their Rhino.

 

I've yet to see Astral Aim be a game changer, though it is quite good. On the other hand I've seen Cleansing Flame completely alter the course of a battle. Since many armies are going to want to get into CC with GK's, taking Purgation squads over Purifiers seems like a liability because Purgation Squads are pretty lackluster in CC. Purgation squads are also susceptible to being chased off the board because they aren't fearless. GK really can't afford to be having units run away, since it is such a small list generally.

 

Personally I plan on taking 1 Psyrifle Dread for every 750pts I play. It is too good and too cheap not to. If they also happen to draw fire away from my regular squads, that's an absolute plus. With Fortitude, they are still probably going to be firing every turn even if they get stunned and shaken like nobody's business.

 

Purgation Squads aren't awful, but they aren't the best Heavy choice GK have either. Dreads and NDK's are probably the two best (I'm not sure about NDK's yet though), with Purgation Squads coming in at third place. All three are more resilient against certain things than the others, all three can benefit from a GM's abilities. All three can move and fire. The dread and NDK don't lose any shooting potential by moving, but the Purgation Squad does. Psyrifle Dreads and stock NDK's are cheaper than a 5 man Purgation Squad w/ 2 x psycannons and are both far superior for supporting other GK units. Overall, Purgation squads don't do anything that other GK squads can't do except fire out of LOS. With a transport, their access to more weapons isn't a benefit anymore because they can't use them. On the battlefield they are as easy to kill as any other PAGK and cost just as much before upgrades and significantly more after upgrades.

[Ashe Darke]

Are you referring to psyautocannon Dreads (two shots on each arm, for four total strength 8 no rending)? You dont need three of them! Two of them yeah ok makes sense, but theres room for one squad of Purgators. And who says youre never gonna shoot with all of them? They can shoot form cover! One lucky hit kills a Dread but shooting a unit of 6 guys (I use 6 guys in a Razorback) behind cover is not as easy. Plus you have two Dreads at least (including Vens even more) plus Purgators. Thats a lot of targets that optimally need to combatted with different units and weapons.

I don't know, I run 3 of those Dreads and its been pure awesome. I personally don't think 2 will cut it. 2 might do if you never have crap rolls but that's unrealistic. If you over shoot with what you need then you're still covered for bad rolling. They're cheaper than a Purgation squad, have longer range, can ID T4. Sure they can't mush apart a squad but a 10 man unit of Purifiers have the same fire power as a 10 man Purgation squad. They're also still pretty good in combat and seen as I run Strike Knights they ain't bad. Yeah I don't have Astral Aim but in the games I've played it's pretty hard to be in range and out of LoS. Hiding them out of LoS and firing out of cover can work unless you fail your power in which case you can't fire. And yeah I have to buy more men for the extra 2 psycannons but I'm not fussed. It's 5 more wounds on the unit to get through before you kill a cannon and it's not like storm bolters are crap. Plus I don't think shooty Purifiers is a waste of their potential, they're a unit that can do both, sure their combat potential goes down the more psycannons but they're still pretty good. You don't need 30 force weapon attacks on the charge, you wanna end combat in their turn not yours.

 

Purgations aren't bad, they just have to have the misfortune of being in a book where there are better things to take.

[Angelis Mortis]

Why would you waste a heavy slot with Dreads when you can take them as Elites and they are more accurate and more survivable? Total waste. I would take a 10 man 4 Psycannon Purgation over a PsyDread any day. One shot bye bye Dread, not so with Purgation. Purgations can move and fire more than a Dread, and is better in the assault than a Dread. Theres really no contest.

[Angelis Mortis]

EDIT: Double post again. Anyone else having issues on this site with double postings a lot? I only click once, but somehow I keep double posting (at least once a day).

[Ashe Darke]

60pts extra per Dread is a good reason. The Assassins and Purifiers are Elites as well is another.

 

They can move a fire better than a Dread? The Dread can walk and fire without losing shots, that's worse how?

 

An ordnance blast can also kill a 5 man Purgation in one go, so can concentrated small arms fire. In combat power weapons have not effect on it, you need to get up so s6 to even touch it, not all units can do that and the Purgation only have loads of force weapons in a 10 man squad and even then it's only gonna be 6 at one attack basic. It's all swings and round-a-bouts and silly comparisons. Like you said you can Dreads as Elites just like you can similar to Purgations as Elites. It depends on what is optimal for you and how you want to use your slots, it's very flexible like that. But it appears that most people want to take the Dreads as heavies. Taking 3 Elite Dreads and a 10 man Purgation costs more than 10 man Purifier and 3 Heavy Dreads. Even 5 man Purgation costs more and has less firepower so it's not surprising that people wanna take them as heavies especially considering how tight points are.

 

Sure you could say that it works out better if you take less Dreads, I don't want to though, I want to run 3 and with them as heavies it works out cheaper. Paying the points for the extra 5 men is not a tax or a bad thing in my eyes so paying through the teeth for Venerable Dreads isn't what works for me

[breng77]

Why would you waste a heavy slot with Dreads when you can take them as Elites and they are more accurate and more survivable? Total waste. I would take a 10 man 4 Psycannon Purgation over a PsyDread any day. One shot bye bye Dread, not so with Purgation. Purgations can move and fire more than a Dread, and is better in the assault than a Dread. Theres really no contest.

 

1.) I would take them because you save 60 points...per dread...in an army where every unit is fairly expensive.

 

2.) I would never run a 10 man 4 Psycannon Purgation Squad, I have considered running a 5/6 man 4 Psycannon squad, at 10 men they have no advantage over Purifiers who are a much better buy.

 

3.) Dreads can move and fire more than a purgation squad at any range over 24"

 

4.) Astral Aim is bad for shooting at Anything with worse than a 3+ save, or at Vehicles, I'm not saying I would not make use of it, but while using it you are reducing the squads effectiveness by 1/2.

 

5.) The dread is actually better in the assault against lots of units (at least as a tarpit.) (I would argue almost every unit when you buy a 5 man squad), and a 10 man squad costs more than 2 dreads.

 

As for the 1 shot bye bye- it depends on the weapon, I will agree that it is more likely, but you can 1 shot a small purgation squad as well.

 

their main advantage is their ability to shoot without getting shot. It's something no one else can do, and I think sometimes, they hold the clear advantage over rifle dreads or dreadknights.

 

Except You know, Tyranid Hive Guard, WhirlWinds, Tau with Smart Missile Systems, Guard Ordinance Barrage Weapons...

 

I like Purgation squads, but they don't bring much to the table that other units don't already have, I am looking at including some in my army, but many other choices are just much more points efficient.

[DarkGuard]

Surely they have their uses? I was looking at the Codex earlier today, and personally I like the idea of a squad of them in a Rhino with 4 incinerators. Bearing in mind the incinerators are free, that's a lot of firepower on that one, poor, unfortunate unit. Excellent for cleaning an enemy off an objective I think, or even capturing it thanks to Grand Strategy. Of course, Purifiers have free incinerators as well, but they can only take four if they are 10 man strong.

 

However, psyfleman Dreads are awesome, although funny story is that my two Rifleman beat them when I played against them. Truth be told I cheated by also firing two Typhoons and two MM/HF Speeders at them as well, so not exactly fair. That being said, psyfleman Dreads are perhaps the best Heavy Support choice in the Codex. However, if I were to make a Grey Knights army I'd probably stay away from them as I've used Rifleman extensively in C:SM.

[Mykra]

Why would you waste a heavy slot with Dreads when you can take them as Elites and they are more accurate and more survivable? Total waste. I would take a 10 man 4 Psycannon Purgation over a PsyDread any day. One shot bye bye Dread, not so with Purgation. Purgations can move and fire more than a Dread, and is better in the assault than a Dread. Theres really no contest.

 

The points cost jumps to mind instantly. 270 versus almost 400 for pairs makes a big deal in a lot of GK armies. If I recall correctly, you can also buy two of the Riflemen for cheaper than a ten man PSGK squad with four psycannons; A lot cheaper (100ish points) if you get them something like a Rhino and Psybolt.

 

I do like Purg's though. I watched a game where a guy had a unit of them with the Incinerators and he just...excuse the pun... lit up every unit he could get close to. The Internet will say 'Lol, I'd never let them...' , but the Internet is stupid and smells funny.

[spartan249]

No one else in the codex is what I'm talking about.

 

Whatever. Use what you want to do what you need to do. Purgation Squads are there as an option, and as such they shouldn't be discounted as utterly useless right from the start.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The codex is still in the early days, armchair generals will dismiss much out of hand that may prove to be essential for competitive lists in the long run. Bear in mind there is a big differnece between theory crafting on paper and tabletop experience.

[DeathKorpsman]

Maybe some people are discounting them outright, but the feel I'm getting from posters here is that Purgation Squads are good... just not as good as some of the other Heavy options available in the current theorycraft/field testing. That might change, but I doubt it. Why invest in a Purgation Squad when you can get a GKSS with two psycannons for cheaper? Same number of shots out of a Rhino. Arguably an equally useful psychic power. Most importantly not taking up a Heavy slot and comes out the chute as a scoring unit.

 

The incinerator option is there, but it means getting REAL close to things you want to cover with those templates. 4 seems like a bit of overkill as well, since most horde units are just going to evaporate when one of those hits. 2 would be fine. 3 is more than solid.

 

Nothing from the codex should be dismissed outright (except digital weapons for Champs)!

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Maybe some people are discounting them outright, but the feel I'm getting from posters here is that Purgation Squads are good... just not as good as some of the other Heavy options available in the current theorycraft/field testing. That might change, but I doubt it. Why invest in a Purgation Squad when you can get a GKSS with two psycannons for cheaper? Same number of shots out of a Rhino. Arguably an equally useful psychic power. Most importantly not taking up a Heavy slot and comes out the chute as a scoring unit.

 

The incinerator option is there, but it means getting REAL close to things you want to cover with those templates. 4 seems like a bit of overkill as well, since most horde units are just going to evaporate when one of those hits. 2 would be fine. 3 is more than solid.

 

Nothing from the codex should be dismissed outright (except digital weapons for Champs)!

 

I've slowly gone off Purgation squads in my lists but I've evolved a more direct, GKT based playstyle. Psycannons are evil on terminators as you don't have to sacrifice mobility for firepower.

 

10-man, rhino mounted, incinerator purgatin squads could become quite evil. especialy if they are made scouts. Can advance pretty far forward and get those teleport homers down field while maintaining an aggressive push with those 4 str6 templates. nasty against swarm armies.

[breng77]

10-man, rhino mounted, incinerator purgatin squads could become quite evil. especialy if they are made scouts. Can advance pretty far forward and get those teleport homers down field while maintaining an aggressive push with those 4 str6 templates. nasty against swarm armies.

 

The issue is that against swarm armies, Purifiers are just tons better, yes they cost more (200 for 10 Purg with 4 Incinerators, and 240 for the Purifiers) but even 8 purifiers with 2 Incinerators will kill more hordes than the purgs. Cleansing Flame is tons better than the extra Incinerators for horde killing, plus extra close combat attacks, and if you are staying mounted 2 incinerators are all you really need.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

10-man, rhino mounted, incinerator purgatin squads could become quite evil. especialy if they are made scouts. Can advance pretty far forward and get those teleport homers down field while maintaining an aggressive push with those 4 str6 templates. nasty against swarm armies.

 

The issue is that against swarm armies, Purifiers are just tons better, yes they cost more (200 for 10 Purg with 4 Incinerators, and 240 for the Purifiers) but even 8 purifiers with 2 Incinerators will kill more hordes than the purgs. Cleansing Flame is tons better than the extra Incinerators for horde killing, plus extra close combat attacks, and if you are staying mounted 2 incinerators are all you really need.

 

Depends on synergy really, in a base comparison the purifiers come out better. But in a list that relies on much of it's army teleporting a purgation unit in rhino with the scout rule (from GM) can bring much more to the army through the use of teleport homers than a purifier can.

 

We need to take into account whole army synergy and rely less on direct unit comparisons.

[Gv0zD]

First of all, let me introduce myself. I'm not a GK plater, nor I plan on being one. But my mate decided to run a GK army. I've borrowed his dex to get acquianted with his army, and Purgation squads attracted my attention. Now, that I've read this hread I see that people find them not very useful. Aren't 4 cheap incinerators,added by force swords and storm bolters a good anti horde unit? From what I've in dex, purgation squad can be effective against orks, nids and similar horde lists. Surely, you have to give up a valuable heavy supprt slot (or two), but they may help a lot. Am I missing something?

[Gentlemanloser]

Becuase Purifiers do that job better (as mentioned above), and don't take your Heavy slot, and can potentially be made Scoring without TGS.

 

It seems the best use of Purgation squads is Scouting them in a Rhino with a TH.

 

But if you want that, you could always use Mystics. Sure, they can't get scout, but who needs it for TH deployment? The only 1st turn DS we can get is Mordrak, who doesn't scatter anyway. Everything else is turn 2+, which is more than enough time to get your Chimeras where you want them.

[Gv0zD]

I see... However, it's kinda strange, that Heavy support unit is better suited for burnig hordes, and even then there are better choices... And purgation squads have more expensive psilencers. Kinda wierd and makes no sense.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I see... However, it's kinda strange, that Heavy support unit is better suited for burnig hordes, and even then there are better choices... And purgation squads have more expensive psilencers. Kinda wierd and makes no sense.

 

No different than Sisters of battle or the DE having a fast attack choice that carries heavy weapons.