Vanguard

[prenelf]

To people who have played at G.W-sanctioned tournies (we don't have them in Sweden I believe), how have you been allowed to use combat squads and deep strike in combination with this unit?

 

Do they:

 

a: roll a single reserve roll and enter at 2 places

b: roll a single reserve roll, enter at the same place and split

c: not allowed to combat squad

d: something else?

I also wish to know the answer to this if any one could answer that would be great

[Brother Nathan]

i beleve the answer is a. also you dont combat squad till you get the roll made to bring them on so its only then that you split the squad down, place both halves and roll scatter for each half. your paying enough points for the unit to have this ability so i think thats only fair.

Also realised that my squad neded a bit more work before it gets posted but they should be done tonight anyway...(decided to change their weapons around again...)

[Red Fury]

To people who have played at G.W-sanctioned tournies (we don't have them in Sweden I believe), how have you been allowed to use combat squads and deep strike in combination with this unit?

 

Do they:

 

a: roll a single reserve roll and enter at 2 places

b: roll a single reserve roll, enter at the same place and split

c: not allowed to combat squad

d: something else?

I also wish to know the answer to this if any one could answer that would be great

i beleve the answer is a. also you dont combat squad till you get the roll made to bring them on so its only then that you split the squad down, place both halves and roll scatter for each half. your paying enough points for the unit to have this ability so i think thats only fair.

Also realised that my squad neded a bit more work before it gets posted but they should be done tonight anyway...(decided to change their weapons around again...)

Yes, A is it. You roll once for resrves, because you cannot combat squad in reserves or before deployment, then you can combat squad and place the two units totally seperately on the board and roll for scatter etc. It's actually a pretty clear rule, GW just freaked everybody out when they FAQed that a unit in reserves cannot combat squad.

Just give the reserves/deepstrike/ and combat squad rules a quick look, it's pretty easy to follow.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

To people who have played at G.W-sanctioned tournies (we don't have them in Sweden I believe), how have you been allowed to use combat squads and deep strike in combination with this unit?

 

Do they:

 

a: roll a single reserve roll and enter at 2 places

b: roll a single reserve roll, enter at the same place and split

c: not allowed to combat squad

d: something else?

I also wish to know the answer to this if any one could answer that would be great

i beleve the answer is a. also you dont combat squad till you get the roll made to bring them on so its only then that you split the squad down, place both halves and roll scatter for each half. your paying enough points for the unit to have this ability so i think thats only fair.

Also realised that my squad neded a bit more work before it gets posted but they should be done tonight anyway...(decided to change their weapons around again...)

Yes, A is it. You roll once for resrves, because you cannot combat squad in reserves or before deployment, then you can combat squad and place the two units totally seperately on the board and roll for scatter etc. It's actually a pretty clear rule, GW just freaked everybody out when they FAQed that a unit in reserves cannot combat squad.

Just give the reserves/deepstrike/ and combat squad rules a quick look, it's pretty easy to follow.

 

I hope it's that simple and no one will give me a hard time about it. Haven't used V.V's in 10 man squads before, but now my list has two Baal preds, so I have to combat squad.

[Sun Reaver]

To people who have played at G.W-sanctioned tournies (we don't have them in Sweden I believe), how have you been allowed to use combat squads and deep strike in combination with this unit?

 

Do they:

 

a: roll a single reserve roll and enter at 2 places

b: roll a single reserve roll, enter at the same place and split

c: not allowed to combat squad

d: something else?

I also wish to know the answer to this if any one could answer that would be great

i beleve the answer is a. also you dont combat squad till you get the roll made to bring them on so its only then that you split the squad down, place both halves and roll scatter for each half. your paying enough points for the unit to have this ability so i think thats only fair.

Also realised that my squad neded a bit more work before it gets posted but they should be done tonight anyway...(decided to change their weapons around again...)

Yes, A is it. You roll once for resrves, because you cannot combat squad in reserves or before deployment, then you can combat squad and place the two units totally seperately on the board and roll for scatter etc. It's actually a pretty clear rule, GW just freaked everybody out when they FAQed that a unit in reserves cannot combat squad.

Just give the reserves/deepstrike/ and combat squad rules a quick look, it's pretty easy to follow.

 

I hope it's that simple and no one will give me a hard time about it. Haven't used V.V's in 10 man squads before, but now my list has two Baal preds, so I have to combat squad.

 

Could you guys please tell me where it says a squad deepstiking can combat squad from reserve. Because at my store, where we have a lot of major tournament players who all frequently travel around the U.S, they all have told me that a unit entering from deepstrike can not combat squad and then shoved a whole bunch of FAQs down my throat.

 

Sun Reaver

[JamesI]

Could you guys please tell me where it says a squad deepstiking can combat squad from reserve. Because at my store, where we have a lot of major tournament players who all frequently travel around the U.S, they all have told me that a unit entering from deepstrike can not combat squad and then shoved a whole bunch of FAQs down my throat.

 

Sun Reaver

This was the ruling at my store as well. Of course it doesn't hurt me, as I only run 6-8 Vanguard at a time.

[Leksington]

Could you guys please tell me where it says a squad deepstiking can combat squad from reserve. Because at my store, where we have a lot of major tournament players who all frequently travel around the U.S, they all have told me that a unit entering from deepstrike can not combat squad and then shoved a whole bunch of FAQs down my throat.

 

Sun Reaver

The Real Crux of the Argument:

Does the phrase "placed in reserve" describe a temporary or permanant condition?

 

My rules lawyering:

Once you have made your reserve roll you are deploying.

Since you are deploying, you are no longer 'placed in reserve.'

Since you aren't 'placed in reserve,' there is no reason you can't combat squad.

Q.E.D.

 

The counter rules lawyering:

Having been 'placed in reserve' is a condition that is permanant.

That you are deploying doesn't remove the fact that you were 'placed in reserve' and therfore can't combat squad.

Q.E.D.

 

It isn't 100% clear either way. But if your LGS is cramming the FAQ from C:SM down your throat, feel free to use my argument: that once a unit is deploying, it is no longer in reserve and can therfore combat squad.

[Elsven]

Could you guys please tell me where it says a squad deepstiking can combat squad from reserve. Because at my store, where we have a lot of major tournament players who all frequently travel around the U.S, they all have told me that a unit entering from deepstrike can not combat squad and then shoved a whole bunch of FAQs down my throat.

 

Sun Reaver

This was the ruling at my store as well. Of course it doesn't hurt me, as I only run 6-8 Vanguard at a time.

 

If you read the Deep Striking Rules on page 95 the of the 40k rule book it says that units arriving by deep strike are to be held in reserves. It says nothing about the units being able to combat squad or not combat squad. Then if you look up the the BA FAQ it states that "squads that are placed in reserve may not break down into combat squads". This means that the unit has to role in as one complete unit, they all come in together. However as they make their decent to the board they can break off into their individual combat squads. Since each combat squad is capable of controlling their own decent they choose approximately where they want to land. Hence why you role them in as one unit but role one scatter dice for each combat squad as they land. Because there is no rule that specifically says you cannot combat squad units that have been in reserve there is nothing wrong with this interpretation of the rule. The other way i have seen it done is by putting them on the table as one unit with one scatter role and then braking them off into squads after they have landed.

 

One thing that would be helpful for us is knowing what FAQ they are referring to in your club. If you can post this information we can help you interpret and understand what the rule is really saying. Also keep in mind that this does not mean they will accept the rule. Ultimately both players must agree on everything before the game starts. At my club we have discussed it and we all have agreed to option A so when we play local tournaments and league games I must role them in as one unit and role separate scatter dice as I place them on the table. Another thing I always do before the game starts when I declare my reserve units I also inform my opponent what my combat squads will be when they come in. This way it is clear what units will be breaking apart and what units wont.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Could you guys please tell me where it says a squad deepstiking can combat squad from reserve. Because at my store, where we have a lot of major tournament players who all frequently travel around the U.S, they all have told me that a unit entering from deepstrike can not combat squad and then shoved a whole bunch of FAQs down my throat.

 

Sun Reaver

This was the ruling at my store as well. Of course it doesn't hurt me, as I only run 6-8 Vanguard at a time.

 

That was all I needed, if that is how G.W employees choose to rule it, then I will follow that lead and not got into discussion over it. Thanks Reaver and James.

[Sun Reaver]

Could you guys please tell me where it says a squad deepstiking can combat squad from reserve. Because at my store, where we have a lot of major tournament players who all frequently travel around the U.S, they all have told me that a unit entering from deepstrike can not combat squad and then shoved a whole bunch of FAQs down my throat.

 

Sun Reaver

This was the ruling at my store as well. Of course it doesn't hurt me, as I only run 6-8 Vanguard at a time.

 

If you read the Deep Striking Rules on page 95 the of the 40k rule book it says that units arriving by deep strike are to be held in reserves. It says nothing about the units being able to combat squad or not combat squad. Then if you look up the the BA FAQ it states that "squads that are placed in reserve may not break down into combat squads". This means that the unit has to role in as one complete unit, they all come in together. However as they make their decent to the board they can break off into their individual combat squads. Since each combat squad is capable of controlling their own decent they choose approximately where they want to land. Hence why you role them in as one unit but role one scatter dice for each combat squad as they land. Because there is no rule that specifically says you cannot combat squad units that have been in reserve there is nothing wrong with this interpretation of the rule. The other way i have seen it done is by putting them on the table as one unit with one scatter role and then braking them off into squads after they have landed.

 

One thing that would be helpful for us is knowing what FAQ they are referring to in your club. If you can post this information we can help you interpret and understand what the rule is really saying. Also keep in mind that this does not mean they will accept the rule. Ultimately both players must agree on everything before the game starts. At my club we have discussed it and we all have agreed to option A so when we play local tournaments and league games I must role them in as one unit and role separate scatter dice as I place them on the table. Another thing I always do before the game starts when I declare my reserve units I also inform my opponent what my combat squads will be when they come in. This way it is clear what units will be breaking apart and what units wont.

 

The FAQ that the members of my club refer to is the Blood Angels one. They believe that when the rule mentions deployment, it refers to the deployment phase. Once that phase is over, than any thing else in the army, deep striking or teleporting, will then arrive on the board, not deploy. Their reasoning is that the player chooses to deploy the unit in reserve. We have argued this role over and over again and we have never been able to reach a conclusive solution. But, most people listen to the veterans because this is what they have experienced in the major tournaments they attend.

 

Sun Reaver

[Red Fury]

Their reasoning is that the player chooses to deploy the unit in reserve.

Sorry but that is an inncorrect reading of the rules. If you look at the reserves section in the brb it clearly says that units can be held in reserves to be deployed later.

 

I don't have it with me but give it a quick once over, it is actually pretty clear.

 

That was all I needed, if that is how G.W employees choose to rule it,

Store employees are often wrong. Whether they just remembered wrong, read it wrong, or are regurgitating what they where told. We all do it, it's a complex set of rules, so read it yourself and make up your own mind.

 

This was the ruling at my store as well. Of course it doesn't hurt me, as I only run 6-8 Vanguard at a time.

Yeah not bad for your VV, but you have been running 3 ten man RAS squads too right? That really limits your deployment flexibility, although you seem to prefer to start on the board anyways (from what I've seen on your blog battle reports).

 

Perhaps I could make a printable point counter-point to how this works. It is actually pretty darn clear, but is hard to remember what to quote from what book when you actually have to argue it for a game. A little cheat sheet to prove it is a legal move might help. And with DoA not having the ability to CS is a big nerf that we don't need.

[Elsven]

Red Fury is correct, when units arrive from deep strike they are deployed on the table. The GW rule book clearly states this on page 95 where they say “Roll for arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows”. Furthermore the GW BA codex says “The decision to split the unit into combat squad, as well as which models go in each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed” on page 23. The only exception to this are units in transports or drop pods, in which case they break into combat squads upon leaving their transport or drop pod. Since deployment clearly happens when the models are placed on the table the combat squads must also be declared then as well. However out of courtesy to your opponent it is a good idea to let him know of this when your initial deployment is to be made. If you do not declare it during your initial deployment then you may be violating the rule “the player must clearly explain the organization of his reserves to the opponent” on page 94 for the general rule book.

[shatter]

The rules are clear, established interpretation is often not. I think because of a simple and common fallacy. (see 1. below)

 

Three important things really.

 

1. Placed in reserve =/= deployment. Different phases. (BRB basic phase structure of the game)

 

2. Units in reserve cannot be combat squadded. (see FAQ; no reserves squadded half in vehicles and half out of vehicles as you can't combat squad in reserves. cf exception: Drop pods; can be squadded at disembark - which is not just post reserves, it's post deployment which is why it's noted as a rather significant exception)

 

3. If you've deploying a 10 man, you can combat squad. There is one moment you do it; deployment. (the C:BA Combat Squad rule itself states this)

 

 

It's very unfortunate so many groups of players see the rules so differently.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here is how I am running my VV now:

 

Sergeant - power fist & stormshield

Vet #1 - power sword & bolt pistol

Vet #2 - power sword & bolt pistol

Vet #3 - thunderhammer & infernus pistol

Vet #4 - chainsword & bolt pistol

 

If I want to tool them out then I run six as follows:

 

Sergeant - power fist & stormshield

Vet #1 - lightning claw & stormshield

Vet #2 - lightning claw & stormshield

Vet #3 - lightning claw & stormshield

Vet #4 - thunderhammer & stormshield

Vet #5 - power sword & infernus pistol

 

It's an awesome unit when they succumb to the Red Thirst and the sergeant receives the Angel's Blessing !!!

 

G :P

[robot530]

Interesting. I thought this all got cleared up. The GW tournament FAQ said units entering from reserve, combat squad upon deployment. The original FAQ was addressing Droppods specifically. All rules in 5th Edition point to combat squading from reserve upon deployment as two separate units once the original unit has been rolled for (rules for which page numbers included have been pointed out over and over again). Hard to believe it is still an issue but I don't get out much.

[Red Fury]

So once you roll for reserves, and are now deploying via deepstrike ;) where do you guys place the first deep striking model to get the best chance of being within assault range? I'm hesitant to place it 3" away but if not, then a scatter in the other direction means no assault/HI at all. What if the target is in cover? Do you risk it even closer?

 

For me, I think 5" away from the target is pretty good, maybe too safe though? 5" original distance and then the wrap around deployment means you are only 2" away from a mishap (the within 1" area of an enemy). Any tips on this would be very appreciated.

[shatter]

I stick the closest edge of the first model's base around 4.2" from target unit. Slightly more or less based on shape/footprint of the target. Closer if it's small, further if it's larger.

 

edit: ~5" for TDA, ~6" for over 7 models.

[Elsven]

So once you roll for reserves, and are now deploying via deepstrike ;) where do you guys place the first deep striking model to get the best chance of being within assault range? I'm hesitant to place it 3" away but if not, then a scatter in the other direction means no assault/HI at all. What if the target is in cover? Do you risk it even closer?

 

For me, I think 5" away from the target is pretty good, maybe too safe though? 5" original distance and then the wrap around deployment means you are only 2" away from a mishap (the within 1" area of an enemy). Any tips on this would be very appreciated.

 

 

A lot of this depends on your squad size. Since your models are placed around the sergeant you may get an inch or two just by putting the models on the table. I would say from experience 4 to 6 inches is all good, it all depends on how much risk you want to take. Obviously the closer you put it the more likely you are to mishap, however it will also ensure that more models make it into combat. Another thing to note is that you may not want to eliminate the enemy on your turn since they will become folder on your opponents turn. So keeping this all in mind I would have to say that how far you place the unit will al depend on how his unit is set up and what all is on the table. It really is all dependent on how the battle is going and how much risk your willing to take.

[Red Fury]

Closer if it's small, further if it's larger.

Oh, I think I get it. Further if the target is within, say, 1 and 5 o'clock but closer if the footprint is only at 3. Since you are less likely to scatter onto 3, sure.

A lot of this depends on your squad size.

Just assume 5. At 5 you have a little flexibility because the ring of 4 around the 1st isn't complete. If you take 6 then it is going to be the same every time, 7 and actually you get a little flexability back be being able to place the 7th model closer or farther from the target.

But let's just say 5, like a combat squad of a 10 man VV squad. And you are trying to HI a 10 man Dev squad in cover, what would you do? Go for 4" out from the bulk of the squad? Or 3" out from a straggler on the edge of the unit and cover?

[Elsven]

Closer if it's small, further if it's larger.

Oh, I think I get it. Further if the target is within, say, 1 and 5 o'clock but closer if the footprint is only at 3. Since you are less likely to scatter onto 3, sure.

A lot of this depends on your squad size.

Just assume 5. At 5 you have a little flexibility because the ring of 4 around the 1st isn't complete. If you take 6 then it is going to be the same every time, 7 and actually you get a little flexability back be being able to place the 7th model closer or farther from the target.

But let's just say 5, like a combat squad of a 10 man VV squad. And you are trying to HI a 10 man Dev squad in cover, what would you do? Go for 4" out from the bulk of the squad? Or 3" out from a straggler on the edge of the unit and cover?

 

If your unit size is only 5 men with a normal size base then you will only gain one inch or so. In this case you may want to go closer maybe 4, possibly 5 inches. Since you can arrange your models in such a way that you do not get a mishap you can risk going a bit closer. Like I had said before it all depends on how much risk your willing to take.

[Sun Reaver]

Interesting. I thought this all got cleared up. The GW tournament FAQ said units entering from reserve, combat squad upon deployment. The original FAQ was addressing Droppods specifically. All rules in 5th Edition point to combat squading from reserve upon deployment as two separate units once the original unit has been rolled for (rules for which page numbers included have been pointed out over and over again). Hard to believe it is still an issue but I don't get out much.

 

Where is this GW tournament FAQ you speak of?

 

Also, thanks everyone for clearing this up. I am going to bring this up again to my fellow gamers this coming weekend and see what they have to say about this.

 

Sun Reaver

[robot530]

It has been quoted in past threads on this subject.

[Firedrake28]

It has been quoted in past threads on this subject.

 

Right, but where can it be found?

[robot530]

Good question. Call it sacred knowledge. There is a bit of speculation on how official it actually is. My post stands as it is, but I doubt that document, if it exists, holds any authority. I think the rule set that we currently have, as it is being addressed here, stands on its own strength. There is much ritual here. I am a new poster, been lurking for years. I thought this topic had been cleared up in favor of combat squads deepstriking. It looks like it hasn't. I'm more interested in conversions and painting and stories. :lol:

[Gv0zD]

I share Elsven's point of view. In fact that's how this issue is addressed in my area. If there is official statement that no combat squads are allowed after deploying from reserves, well, I won't be too desappointed. I'd just run two 5 men squads and will pray they both come in on the same turn. As for the models placement, I'd say 5 inches from the 'targeted' unit should do fine