3 Psyrifle Dreadnoughts

[Grimtooth]

If not that, they can just ID termagants to bypass their FNP granted from a local Tervigon.

Actually, this part is not entirely accurate - even though the Autocannon has enough AP to defeat the termagant's armor save, FNP is only denied by an attack against which no armor save can be taken (ie, AP2/1 or power weapons).

 

Everything else you said is right on the money, though. Psiflemen are really painful for Nids to deal with.

 

Instant death negates FnP, which Str 8 autocannons are more then capable.

[Ashe Darke]

You hand someone 10 armour saves they're bound to fail a fair few.

 

Oh man, I wish this was the case.

 

-Stormshrug

Well it hasn't failed me yet. A lot of MCs have 3+ armours and statistically that's at least 3 failed if you get 10 wound. That's a dead carnifex. In the first game I played against a lot of MCs the dreads killed them all and have been doing so pretty reliably ever since.

[Zagman]

You hand someone 10 armour saves they're bound to fail a fair few.

 

Oh man, I wish this was the case.

 

-Stormshrug

Well it hasn't failed me yet. A lot of MCs have 3+ armours and statistically that's at least 3 failed if you get 10 wound. That's a dead carnifex. In the first game I played against a lot of MCs the dreads killed them all and have been doing so pretty reliably ever since.

 

That is if you are facing carnifexs which no one does.

 

How do they fair against FNP Trygon Primes thanks to Tervigons or FNP Flyrants? Only taking 3 wounds off of a Trygon as it closes in on your isn't great for 400pts of AT shooting.

[Doomaflatchi]

If not that, they can just ID termagants to bypass their FNP granted from a local Tervigon.

Actually, this part is not entirely accurate - even though the Autocannon has enough AP to defeat the termagant's armor save, FNP is only denied by an attack against which no armor save can be taken (ie, AP2/1 or power weapons).

 

Everything else you said is right on the money, though. Psiflemen are really painful for Nids to deal with.

 

Instant death negates FnP, which Str 8 autocannons are more then capable.

Whoops, you're right! That'll teach me to try to quote a rule from memory. :pirate:

[DeathKorpsman]

Psyrifle Dreads might be the best in the game at popping AV12> vehicles, but as it has been pointed out they really aren't as good at anything else. Against nids they will be partially useful against certain units, like warriors or MC's, but probably won't earn their points back in that game. But for the armies that they are good against, they are worth their points in gold and I'd take them every time in an all-comers list.

Pfft. As a Tyranid player myself, I know this too be false. Psyfleman Dreads are excellent against my main two sources of anti tank, being able to ID Zoanthropes (who also pwn marines with the S5 AP3 blast) and shred Hive Guard (they'd get no save and are wounded on 2s, plus their guns are half the range of autocannons and they can't DS). Furthermore, Warriors (and their cousins the Shrikes and Raveners), who are excellent against MEQs when equipped with Lash Whip and Boneswords, and perhaps toxic sacs as well, are mulched by the accurate ID firepower, and with sheer spam they can down MCs (who only have a 3+ save most of the time mind you). If not that, they can just ID termagants to bypass their FNP granted from a local Tervigon.

You are saying what I said is false and then go and repeat most of what I said. I'm a tad confused. :)

 

Like anything else, Psyrifle dreads can be a threat to about anything with saturation. However, the most you can have is 6 (which would be a bit much), while I wouldn't field more than 3. Each one is also only capable of only 4 shots. Sure they'll probably all hit and wound, but any good Nid player is using cover and such. 12 shots is great against Nids, but my point was they aren't as great at killing Nids or doing other roles as they are at popping open AV11 and 12 transports.

 

Against anything but a heavy transport type list (looking at you DE), 3 psyrifle dreads doesn't qualify as cheesy to me. They are pretty simple to kill, have no CC protection, and are really at their best against a small range of units. It helps that the small range of units is quite common, but still :).

[Ashe Darke]

You hand someone 10 armour saves they're bound to fail a fair few.

 

Oh man, I wish this was the case.

 

-Stormshrug

Well it hasn't failed me yet. A lot of MCs have 3+ armours and statistically that's at least 3 failed if you get 10 wound. That's a dead carnifex. In the first game I played against a lot of MCs the dreads killed them all and have been doing so pretty reliably ever since.

 

That is if you are facing carnifexs which no one does.

 

How do they fair against FNP Trygon Primes thanks to Tervigons or FNP Flyrants? Only taking 3 wounds off of a Trygon as it closes in on your isn't great for 400pts of AT shooting.

The carnifex was just an example of T6, W3 3+ MC.

 

Well I tend not to face either of them, but I have better things in my army for facing Trygons anyway. But Daemon Princes really suffer. It's not like taking off most the most the wounds/killing a MC from 48 inches away is a bad thing. My point is they can do more than kill tanks based on my experience.

[Zhukov]

Biggest flaw in the rifledread is an opponent that can either break your line to get into CC or drop armour busters on top of them.

 

Seen some nasty drop pod lists that would shut down a rifle line.

Biggest flaw in this argument is the fact that you leave out any potential support for the Rifledreads. Also, a hint: GKSS got warpquake, guess what that does to deepstriking melta? Yeah, forces them to stay without melta range.

[Souba]

not to break it for anyone but that wont be even a dead carnifex as they have 4W. there are better options for MC killing instead of psirifle dreads.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Biggest flaw in the rifledread is an opponent that can either break your line to get into CC or drop armour busters on top of them.

 

Seen some nasty drop pod lists that would shut down a rifle line.

Biggest flaw in this argument is the fact that you leave out any potential support for the Rifledreads. Also, a hint: GKSS got warpquake, guess what that does to deepstriking melta? Yeah, forces them to stay without melta range.

 

Then it starts to get expensive and wasteful. Having to camp a SS on your rifledreads to prevent deep striking.

 

I find it amusing the sracastic, subtle insults always seem to start coming out in thse debates. Especialy when someone's "i win" button is being logicly challenged.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

not to break it for anyone but that wont be even a dead carnifex as they have 4W. there are better options for MC killing instead of psirifle dreads.

 

The GKT squad is, imho, the best MC hunter, especialy with a banner for getting off the FW effect. Put in a IC so they can get hammerhand and you should be able score that one wound that you need and since these big guys generaly need to get into CC to be effective they can't really avoid you.

 

This addiction to the rifleman dread is going to wane over the next few months when the other guys figure out that they are not that good. Sure current meta, especialy these raxorback addicts, will get hit hard for a while but folks will adapt and the riflemen will start to become a liability.

 

The only reason rifles are doing so well is because the 'dex is new and people havn't figured out the flaws and disadvantages of the rifle lists.

[Ashe Darke]

not to break it for anyone but that wont be even a dead carnifex as they have 4W. there are better options for MC killing instead of psirifle dreads.

Whoops. But yeah, not saying they're the best thing for it but when there are no tanks around knocking a handful of wounds off a MC ain't bad.

[Zhukov]

Then it starts to get expensive and wasteful. Having to camp a SS on your rifledreads to prevent deep striking.

 

I find it amusing the sracastic, subtle insults always seem to start coming out in thse debates. Especialy when someone's "i win" button is being logicly challenged.

"I win" button? Lol dude, it's just an excellent AT platform that can get killed and obviously isn't good in close combat. I'm sorry for pointing out why your reasoning failed though :cuss Truth hurts, I know.

 

 

Why do you need to camp GKSS squads? What about moving the Psyflemen up with the GKSS? It's not like GKSS race forward for several turns, you do start shooting with them as soon as possible aren't you? In midfield right? I can make pictures for you to show it if you don't get it (:

 

It beats your alternative of leaving your Psyflemen die to deepstriking melta in any case. That's called playing stupid.

 

Oh gawd, you made more claims:

 

This addiction to the rifleman dread is going to wane over the next few months when the other guys figure out that they are not that good.

Tell me, what exactly is bad about an AV12 model who can get cover saves fairly easy while usually ignoring stunned/shaken, with excellent damage output for a reasonable price? What's there to figure out? Enlighten us, please.

 

 

Sure current meta, especialy these raxorback addicts, will get hit hard for a while but folks will adapt and the riflemen will start to become a liability.

The only reason rifles are doing so well is because the 'dex is new and people havn't figured out the flaws and disadvantages of the rifle lists.

Adapt, how? Again: Enlighten us. Newflash mate: People been using Rifledreads in the Marine codex for over 2 years now, what's the difference with the GK's codex?

 

So yeah, stop acting like your some sort of visionary while you have no arguments at all.

[Zagman]

You hand someone 10 armour saves they're bound to fail a fair few.

 

Oh man, I wish this was the case.

 

-Stormshrug

Well it hasn't failed me yet. A lot of MCs have 3+ armours and statistically that's at least 3 failed if you get 10 wound. That's a dead carnifex. In the first game I played against a lot of MCs the dreads killed them all and have been doing so pretty reliably ever since.

 

That is if you are facing carnifexs which no one does.

 

How do they fair against FNP Trygon Primes thanks to Tervigons or FNP Flyrants? Only taking 3 wounds off of a Trygon as it closes in on your isn't great for 400pts of AT shooting.

The carnifex was just an example of T6, W3 3+ MC.

 

Well I tend not to face either of them, but I have better things in my army for facing Trygons anyway. But Daemon Princes really suffer. It's not like taking off most the most the wounds/killing a MC from 48 inches away is a bad thing. My point is they can do more than kill tanks based on my experience.

 

And a Carnifex is a 4W MC.

 

3 PsyrifleDreads will on average deal three wounds to a TMC. That just doesn't cut it as far as being a good matchup. You could overload your army withh PsyRifleDreads and be totally brutalized by an MC list.

 

What is scarier, you deal the same number of wounds to simple tactical marines too. Only 3 dead tacticals from your 400pts of AT. Some armies will have much less to fear from an army overloaded on PsyRifleDreads.

 

I think we will find that at most we will see 3 maybe four with a vindicare int 2k and 2.5k lists.

 

Don't get me wrong, PsyRifleDreads are awesome, they just have difficulties with Heavy AV, MCs, and infantry. But will they ever put the hurt on AV12 spam like Guard and Mechdar or Razorspam.

[Zhukov]

3 PsyrifleDreads will on average deal three wounds to a TMC. That just doesn't cut it as far as being a good matchup. You could overload your army withh PsyRifleDreads and be totally brutalized by an MC list.

What MC list? You'll never see more than 6 or 7 max and even then: 3 Psyfleman Dreads are only 405 points, that's leaves a lot to balance the army out.

 

 

What is scarier, you deal the same number of wounds to simple tactical marines too. Only 3 dead tacticals from your 400pts of AT. Some armies will have much less to fear from an army overloaded on PsyRifleDreads.

Goes for marine armies too; they have transports. The once who don't? Jumpers? Guess what GKSS and Purifiers do...

 

I think we will find that at most we will see 3 maybe four with a vindicare int 2k and 2.5k lists

.

Nah, you'll see some lists with 6 at 2k; but in that case I would take MM's on the Ven Dreads. (so 1 MM and 1 AC)

 

Don't get me wrong, PsyRifleDreads are awesome, they just have difficulties with Heavy AV, MCs, and infantry. But will they ever put the hurt on AV12 spam like Guard and Mechdar or Razorspam.

Thing is, it doesn't matter if they somewhat trouble against that: They aren't your whole army! The fact that Psyfleman Dreads still do alright damage to MC's, Heavy armour and can even make Marines take saves consistently goes to show that they got some versatality too. (1 wound to an MC each is far from suckage when you start doing it from turn 1 from a long range)

 

Please start talking in complete armies and don't take hypothecial situations without look at the whole picture, it's just not realistic. An army of only psyflemen would obviously trouble; but that's impossible.

[Grimtooth]

Rifle dreads have been around long before this codex. What the GK codex has brought are rifle dreads that are 1 Str higher and now have risen as the GK go to transport buster.

 

As much as people are going to decry them as far as infantry busting, against MSU they are capable of desroying the transport and effectively reducing the unit to ineffective numbers.

 

One thing that people seem to keep overlooking is that they will ID Toughness 4 models and below, negating FnP.

[Zagman]

3 PsyrifleDreads will on average deal three wounds to a TMC. That just doesn't cut it as far as being a good matchup. You could overload your army withh PsyRifleDreads and be totally brutalized by an MC list.

What MC list? You'll never see more than 6 or 7 max and even then: 3 Psyfleman Dreads are only 405 points, that's leaves a lot to balance the army out.

 

 

What is scarier, you deal the same number of wounds to simple tactical marines too. Only 3 dead tacticals from your 400pts of AT. Some armies will have much less to fear from an army overloaded on PsyRifleDreads.

Goes for marine armies too; they have transports. The once who don't? Jumpers? Guess what GKSS and Purifiers do...

 

I think we will find that at most we will see 3 maybe four with a vindicare int 2k and 2.5k lists

.

Nah, you'll see some lists with 6 at 2k; but in that case I would take MM's on the Ven Dreads. (so 1 MM and 1 AC)

 

Don't get me wrong, PsyRifleDreads are awesome, they just have difficulties with Heavy AV, MCs, and infantry. But will they ever put the hurt on AV12 spam like Guard and Mechdar or Razorspam.

Thing is, it doesn't matter if they somewhat trouble against that: They aren't your whole army! The fact that Psyfleman Dreads still do alright damage to MC's, Heavy armour and can even make Marines take saves consistently goes to show that they got some versatality too. (1 wound to an MC each is far from suckage when you start doing it from turn 1 from a long range)

 

Please start talking in complete armies and don't take hypothecial situations without look at the whole picture, it's just not realistic. An army of only psyflemen would obviously trouble; but that's impossible.

 

and 6 costs 990pts which is half of your 2k army. I have examples of why the PsyRifleDread isn't great at everything. Yes you have an entire army, but taking a full complement of PsyRifleDreads limits the rest of your amry and against certain opponents aren't very useful. And at 2k if you take 6 PsyrifleDreads and your opponents has an entire list of infantry(granted not very common) but you basically have 2k of an a complete army against 1k of yours. Even purifiers won't make up those odds. 1 wound per turn to an MC isn't very impressive for a dedicated AT choice, especially when that target can benefit from FNP. 1 wound to a tactical squad per turn is laughable, not versatile.

 

You may only see 6-7MCs but you'll also see other T6 models ie Hiveguard which will be able to threaten your transports, opening them up to shooting, and eventually threaten your PsyRifleDreads. Now that same whole army will also have access to SitW making those purifiers less effective and making Cleansing Flame go off only 1/3 of the time. Are we talking in whole armies now?

 

Please stop being being rune and offer intelligent counter arguments, insults are not needed.

[Notanoob]

and 6 costs 990pts which is half of your 2k army. I have examples of why the PsyRifleDread isn't great at everything. Yes you have an entire army, but taking a full complement of PsyRifleDreads limits the rest of your amry and against certain opponents aren't very useful. And at 2k if you take 6 PsyrifleDreads and your opponents has an entire list of infantry(granted not very common) but you basically have 2k of an a complete army against 1k of yours. Even purifiers won't make up those odds. 1 wound per turn to an MC isn't very impressive for a dedicated AT choice, especially when that target can benefit from FNP. 1 wound to a tactical squad per turn is laughable, not versatile.

 

You may only see 6-7MCs but you'll also see other T6 models ie Hiveguard which will be able to threaten your transports, opening them up to shooting, and eventually threaten your PsyRifleDreadstat. Now that same whole army will also have access to SitW making those purifiers less effective and making Cleansing Flame go off only 1/3 of the time. Are we talking in whole armies now?

 

Please stop being being rune and offer intelligent counter arguments, insults are not needed.

No one should be suggesting to spam psyfleman dreads like that, creating an illogical army to make your argument easier isn't achieving anything. Instead, consider the regular GKSS, Purifiers, and such that will be present. Then you stop worrying about the MCs, because you can down them with a single cut of a force weapon, and focus your dreads' fire on the Hive Guard, who will be dropped fast (they can't put FNP on every unit, one is going to suffer), or Warriors and their equivalent multiwound T4 Zoes, Venomthropes, Shrikes, Raveners and Biovores. With the support Vthropes dropped, and HGs too, regular dudes start dropping faster (so less need for Cleansing Flame), and when they arrive, we'll still be inside our transports if we feel like it, and can jump out and blast them away. Finally, any GKTs with Brotherhood Banner make a mockery of SitW.

 

The most important point is that Psyfleman Dreads are excellent. No matter what army you face, you will find a use for them, and more often than not you will have plenty of excellent targets. Why gimp yourself by not taking them because one army has a few less good targets when just about every one else does?

[Zagman]

and 6 costs 990pts which is half of your 2k army. I have examples of why the PsyRifleDread isn't great at everything. Yes you have an entire army, but taking a full complement of PsyRifleDreads limits the rest of your amry and against certain opponents aren't very useful. And at 2k if you take 6 PsyrifleDreads and your opponents has an entire list of infantry(granted not very common) but you basically have 2k of an a complete army against 1k of yours. Even purifiers won't make up those odds. 1 wound per turn to an MC isn't very impressive for a dedicated AT choice, especially when that target can benefit from FNP. 1 wound to a tactical squad per turn is laughable, not versatile.

 

You may only see 6-7MCs but you'll also see other T6 models ie Hiveguard which will be able to threaten your transports, opening them up to shooting, and eventually threaten your PsyRifleDreadstat. Now that same whole army will also have access to SitW making those purifiers less effective and making Cleansing Flame go off only 1/3 of the time. Are we talking in whole armies now?

 

Please stop being being rune and offer intelligent counter arguments, insults are not needed.

No one should be suggesting to spam psyfleman dreads like that, creating an illogical army to make your argument easier isn't achieving anything. Instead, consider the regular GKSS, Purifiers, and such that will be present. Then you stop worrying about the MCs, because you can down them with a single cut of a force weapon, and focus your dreads' fire on the Hive Guard, who will be dropped fast (they can't put FNP on every unit, one is going to suffer), or Warriors and their equivalent multiwound T4 Zoes, Venomthropes, Shrikes, Raveners and Biovores. With the support Vthropes dropped, and HGs too, regular dudes start dropping faster (so less need for Cleansing Flame), and when they arrive, we'll still be inside our transports if we feel like it, and can jump out and blast them away. Finally, any GKTs with Brotherhood Banner make a mockery of SitW.

 

The most important point is that Psyfleman Dreads are excellent. No matter what army you face, you will find a use for them, and more often than not you will have plenty of excellent targets. Why gimp yourself by not taking them because one army has a few less good targets when just about every one else does?

 

I didn't create an illogical army to further my point. T6 spam is one of the more competitive Tyranid builds. Also, you managed to argue your point by listing a bunch of units you are unlikely to have since a huge chunk of your points are locked up in PsyRifleDreads. You've totally opened the door to theory hammer naming units you aren't likely to see.

 

A single cut of a force weapon... sure under ideal circumstances. You'd need to hit on 4s, wound on 6s and then pass ld9 on 3d6. Now that is stacking the dice in your favor and foolish to rely on. If you have GKT with a banner, then its a poor unit for an MC to assault and the tyranid player was making a mistake. I've seen them fail to get those force weapons off multiple times and it wasn't a surprise.

 

I've simply been arguing that spamming PsyRifleDreads isn't the best option against some armies, I have been supporting them as a phenomenal unit and recommended taking 2. They have weaknesses against certain kinds of lists and are not the be all end all of GK. If you are looking for an instant win unit, you may find your self let down.

[Zhukov]

and 6 costs 990pts which is half of your 2k army. I have examples of why the PsyRifleDread isn't great at everything. Yes you have an entire army, but taking a full complement of PsyRifleDreads limits the rest of your amry and against certain opponents aren't very useful. And at 2k if you take 6 PsyrifleDreads and your opponents has an entire list of infantry(granted not very common) but you basically have 2k of an a complete army against 1k of yours. Even purifiers won't make up those odds. 1 wound per turn to an MC isn't very impressive for a dedicated AT choice, especially when that target can benefit from FNP. 1 wound to a tactical squad per turn is laughable, not versatile.

No you don't have examples of why lists which are heavy on Psyflemen are bad. You don't talk in complete lists; neither for GK's and neither for oppenents. 'MC's', 'Tactical squads'? Those arent builds; those are units.

 

I say it again: They are relatively fine against MC's and in the case of Nids they excell at taking down Hive Guard and any T4 multiwound they have, which are the most dangerous for a Grey Knight army. That they even can be used against others things of them goes to show how allround effective they are.

 

You may only see 6-7MCs but you'll also see other T6 models ie Hiveguard which will be able to threaten your transports, opening them up to shooting, and eventually threaten your PsyRifleDreads.

Psyflemen excell at killing Hive Guard...

 

Now that same whole army will also have access to SitW making those purifiers less effective and making Cleansing Flame go off only 1/3 of the time. Are we talking in whole armies now?

No you aren't. You even confuse me here: Do you want to argue that other choices are bad against Nids too? Then what does it help when you take less Psyflemen? Nids trouble against GK's, Psyflemen are one of the major reasons of it.

 

Please stop being being rune and offer intelligent counter arguments, insults are not needed.

Insults? Disagreeing and pointing out where people fail is insulting?

When you go into discussions and claim stuff, don't feel offended when people reply to it.

 

Here, Stelek actually did a list with 6 Psyflemen:

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/04/gunline-gk/

 

That's 6(!), while some argue 3 or 4 is even too much. Well it isn't. I undestand that people want to believe taking quite some of them is bad, but I'm afraid it's not. Suck it up, that's 40k: spamming tends to work to a certain degree.

[DevianID]

wow this topic got kinda crazy... as an aside Stelek has no internet authority but is disliked by some for his brazen attitude, so I wouldnt go mentioning him much.

 

To the OP--there was some good posts in the beginning, Number6 and the ethical gaming plug come to mind.

 

Here is my stance. Different people look for different things in the game. Some people like to challenge each other, with the assumed idea being to create powerful armies and fantastic generals who know the rules and tactics of the game inside and out. If you are one of these people, and your regular opponents are these people, then no matter what you take in your army it will be fine.

 

Some people are just starting out, and play with what they have. This is an expensive hobby after all. Others only play with what they lovingly converted/painted based on their ideas of aesthetics. Both of these people are playing the wargame with one arm tied behind their back compared to a competitive player with access to any and every model and army. Its like playing a type1 winning magic the gathering deck with full power e against a new player who just bought his first few boosters. Regardless of how nice your and your opponent are, there is a very real difference in the powerlevel you are playing at. The power level difference is comparable to playing with 2000 points versus 1000 points, perhaps even more. In a game that is supposed to be balanced (like chess), one player playing with such a huge handicap changes the very INTENTIONS of the game. After all, what do you call a game of chess where the white player starts with only pawns (basic troops) and a king (mandatory HQ) as his pieces--NOT CHESS.

 

Finally, some people are simply very poor sportsmen. These people only have fun when winning, or play to win at any cost and consider cheating to be perfectly acceptable if they are not caught. These players often will balk when an opponent challenges them, either on rules, generalship, or army power. These people, IMHO, you only have 2 options to deal with. 1, educate them and try and correct their poor sportsmenship, or 2, ignore them, as they will only ruin their opponents fun.

 

In conclusion, you need to decide where you fit in with your group. If your group plays for the hobby aesthetic, then bringing as much of what you consider to be a good unit is not in the spirit of the group--everyone else is bringing what they consider to look cool, while you are bringing what you consider to be the most effective. If your group is just a bunch of bad sports, educate them or ignore them. If YOUR the bad sport, work to change.

[Zhukov]

wow this topic got kinda crazy... as an aside Stelek has no internet authority but is disliked by some for his brazen attitude, so I wouldnt go mentioning him much.

What has his attitude to do with it? And I rarely ever mention him, but in this case it serves a purpose; he explains stuff there so that I don't have to do it.

 

But I'll let it go now, this is going nowhere. If people think taking 3 or 4 Psyflemen makes any build bad, unless it's 2000+ points, then that's their right.

[DevianID]

His attitude has everything to do with it. If he explains it so you dont have to, then you are letting Stelek represent you (and all that entails), and are acknowledging his authority over your own.

 

If you happen to agree with some of his ideas, and have tested them yourself, then you are your own authority and should comment based on your experience.

 

That said, what Stelek likes or dislikes is not really relevant to the OP, who is asking about friendly play in his group. My post, as well as number6 and the ethical gaming plug, try and address the concepts that the OP was asking about, namely if you should in a friendly game. My answer at least was--'It depends on the kind of person you play with for fun.'

[Gentlemanloser]

Where do you draw the line?

 

At what point does resonable dislike of army elements, become unreasonable foot-stamping at losing?

 

Back in the day I :cussed to high heaven at our Eldar player for his flying circus. He couldn't be beaten, by anyone, and it was no fun to play at all.

 

The same happened when the Dameon army was released. It either lost first turn, and wasn't fun to play agians,t or it steamrolled every Marine player in our gropu with a combination of 'Crushers (And the Taker), 'Letters all with FC and Power Wepaons (and nearly Marine stats), and DPs of Nurgle.

 

Utterly unfun to play against, and in a fashion with.

 

Now it's swiging 'round to the GKs somewhat. Every Squad with a Power Weapon? I steam roll our Marine players without breaking a sweat. Last game I played I was two Dev marines away from annihalting my opponent on turn 5 (when the game ended) and I had lost a NDK and a handful of PAGK (at 2K). And we've been playing each other for *years*. Last game I steam rolled him too. And the game before. I6 Power Weapons on Marine stats, for nearly the same cost as him means he has little chance of ever beating me.

 

Problem is, I can't (unlike our Eldar player) drop the Power Weapons. I can't stop our guys all having Force Weapons, rendering my opponents 'big guys' nearly worthless. All this isn't fun to face.

 

Was I wrong to ;) about the flying circus? Should I have just sucked it up and (belive me, after trying for 2 years...) tried to find some way to remain competitive? Not for WAAC, but for an enjoyable, non 1 sided lopsided game. It got to a point the games weren't fun for anyone. At that point, the Eldar player changed his list.

 

But then it was just the *stupid* Dark Reaper Exarch killing marines in droves with his utterly ;) AP3, reroll, no cover save...

 

What happens if my group start to :cuss about the GKs? Should they just drop all thier MC and big HQs? Try to adapt somewhat? Resign themselves to losing every CC as I either CF or I6 them into submission?

 

Should I drop the Halberds? Should I use Hammerhand, to lock myself out form having access to Force Weapons?

 

Should my group just all move to play IG or MSU SW?

 

If your opponents find 3 Dreads (or even 6) too much to handle, should you change your list? Should they just try to adapt? If you drop the Dreads for (I donno...) 3 NDKs, and they find they don't have enough oomph to take out 3 teleporting MCs with TDA save, and they start compalining aobut that too, what then? Drop the NDKs? Not take any heavy slots?

 

Find new opponents?

[Prathios]

Where do you draw the line?

 

At what point does resonable dislike of army elements, become unreasonable foot-stamping at losing?

 

Back in the day I :cussed to high heaven at our Eldar player for his flying circus. He couldn't be beaten, by anyone, and it was no fun to play at all.

 

The same happened when the Dameon army was released. It either lost first turn, and wasn't fun to play agians,t or it steamrolled every Marine player in our gropu with a combination of 'Crushers (And the Taker), 'Letters all with FC and Power Wepaons (and nearly Marine stats), and DPs of Nurgle.

 

Utterly unfun to play against, and in a fashion with.

 

Now it's swiging 'round to the GKs somewhat. Every Squad with a Power Weapon? I steam roll our Marine players without breaking a sweat. Last game I played I was two Dev marines away from annihalting my opponent on turn 5 (when the game ended) and I had lost a NDK and a handful of PAGK (at 2K). And we've been playing each other for *years*. Last game I steam rolled him too. And the game before. I6 Power Weapons on Marine stats, for nearly the same cost as him means he has little chance of ever beating me.

 

Problem is, I can't (unlike our Eldar player) drop the Power Weapons. I can't stop our guys all having Force Weapons, rendering my opponents 'big guys' nearly worthless. All this isn't fun to face.

 

Was I wrong to :) about the flying circus? Should I have just sucked it up and (belive me, after trying for 2 years...) tried to find some way to remain competitive? Not for WAAC, but for an enjoyable, non 1 sided lopsided game. It got to a point the games weren't fun for anyone. At that point, the Eldar player changed his list.

 

But then it was just the *stupid* Dark Reaper Exarch killing marines in droves with his utterly ;) AP3, reroll, no cover save...

 

What happens if my group start to :P about the GKs? Should they just drop all thier MC and big HQs? Try to adapt somewhat? Resign themselves to losing every CC as I either CF or I6 them into submission?

 

Should I drop the Halberds? Should I use Hammerhand, to lock myself out form having access to Force Weapons?

 

Should my group just all move to play IG or MSU SW?

 

If your opponents find 3 Dreads (or even 6) too much to handle, should you change your list? Should they just try to adapt? If you drop the Dreads for (I donno...) 3 NDKs, and they find they don't have enough oomph to take out 3 teleporting MCs with TDA save, and they start compalining aobut that too, what then? Drop the NDKs? Not take any heavy slots?

 

Find new opponents?

 

These are all really good questions gentleman. As opposed to the Zhukov dick measuring contest that completely ignored the OPs point. I'm sorry but it really bothers me when you see a mentality prevail that unless someone is using their entire elite and heavy support slots with psyflemen they are idiots... Apparently if you aren't using just purifiers and dreads you're doing it wrong.

 

I think your group is in a situation where both sides need to find a happy medium to live on. The best you can do gentlemen is try new lists, see what works and what doesn't. Just keep experimenting, don't stick with a list you already watched destroy your opponent. Encourage your opponent to keep trying to craft ways to counter you. Your list is not unstoppable. GK are not that far above the other teams. Your opponents need to find better ways to counter you, and because you are friends you can do this in a friendly manner.

 

See your post relies very heavily on the fact that GK can't make themselves be not overpowered, or at least that's the tone you take. I would argue that perhaps your friends need to step it up just a little bit. A bunch of sterngaurd shooting kraken bolts should be pretty snazy against your army. Any AP3 should work wonders against your army. So it becomes a learning experience for you all. The goal, or course, being to find a place where you are all enjoying the game.

 

As for your last point, if someone brings 6 psyflemen to a friendly game I would immediately know this is a min/maxer who has no idea how to play a friendly game and only seeks victory at all costs. These are the kind of folks who usually drive people away from the hobby with their inability to play a friendly game. If they want to drop that kind of list they need to tell their opponent before the game so you know this is not a generalized list versus a generalized list as most friendly games would tend to be. There is nothing wrong with a psyflespam in a tournament setting or a game between two people who are both using min/max lists. There is something very wrong if you see nothing wrong with taking this list into every single game you play.

[Zagman]

Please stop being being rune and offer intelligent counter arguments, insults are not needed.

Insults? Disagreeing and pointing out where people fail is insulting?

When you go into discussions and claim stuff, don't feel offended when people reply to it.

 

Here, Stelek actually did a list with 6 Psyflemen:

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/04/gunline-gk/

 

That's 6(!), while some argue 3 or 4 is even too much. Well it isn't. I undestand that people want to believe taking quite some of them is bad, but I'm afraid it's not. Suck it up, that's 40k: spamming tends to work to a certain degree.

 

Ok, see the point where you say "Insults? Disagreeing and point out where people fail is insulting?" That is an insult.

 

I have been attempting to point out that the PsyRifleDread is not the be all end all of units. It has its weaknesses. I'll give a very simple example against that nice list you posted. A Dark Angels Assault Terminators list with Cyclone Missile launchers. That list will absolutely devastate a 2k list where 990pts are spend on S8 AP4 weapons. See there is a very SIMPLE example of a situation for those who struggle with complex though(see insult, not very nice of me, huh?) where PsyRifleDreads aren't an auto win.

 

I've also run into PsyRifleDreads with my DriagoWing, needless to say they didn't scare me very much and I tore them apart nearly tabling the GK by T5. Again, a situation where the PsyRifleDreads were not very useful. They are a great unit, but relying solely on spamming them to be the biggest strength of your army is a mistake. I very simple want to state that they do have some disadvantages. Against most opponents they'll be nigh unstoppable, but against others they won't be that effective.