3 Psyrifle Dreadnoughts

[TyrionTheImp]

I've also run into PsyRifleDreads with my DriagoWing, needless to say they didn't scare me very much and I tore them apart nearly tabling the GK by T5. Again, a situation where the PsyRifleDreads were not very useful. They are a great unit, but relying solely on spamming them to be the biggest strength of your army is a mistake. I very simple want to state that they do have some disadvantages. Against most opponents they'll be nigh unstoppable, but against others they won't be that effective.

 

See, you're putting out examples of armies that most people, particularly competitive people, won't play, and that's sort of giving people the wrong idea. Playing "what if you face this list" scenarios is silly, especially with lists people don't often play. Majority of people play mech, psyflemen are great against mech, therefore they are the best choice in the Heavy Support slot for Grey Knights. A truly balanced list would beat Draigowing anyways if it's well built.

 

Do you think the outcome of the game would have been different had they taken Land Raiders, Purgations, or Dreadknights? I would say probably not, and I would say the opponent was either a poor general or had an overall poor list, but I don't know, I wasn't there and I'm not going to ask for a batrep anyways as that's just wasting time.

 

I don't think taking the best choice of a slot in any book is cheesy, friendly game or a no, I want a challenge when I play and I want to offer challenges to people I play, and I would hope my opponents have the same mentality. If you're not playing to win, why bother playing? The object of the game is to win, the point of the game is to have fun, and that fun should come from the challenges of playing the game, and that includes taking the best options available in an attempt to win. Of course, if you're completely steamrolling EVERYONE you play with your list locally, you might want to play with less powerful options for the sake of not getting bored. After all, winning all the time is IMHO worse than losing all the time.

 

Sure, playing themed armies is fun (I dislike the use of "fluffy" because any army that comes from a codex comes from options available to that army and is therefore "fluffy") and cool with narratives and such, but I'm a bigger fan of playing an exciting game where I don't know if I can pull out a win or not until the game ends.

 

Anyways, if people complain you're being cheesy and start refusing to play you because of your Dreadnoughts, find other people to play with, and if you can't, well then stop using them. Playing games of any sort is better than playing no games at all, right?

[Ashe Darke]

Well I can only speak for myself but I was never claiming that they were the best thing in the book. I was merely defending them against comments like 'they're not very good when it comes to MCs' or 'they're only good for killing tanks' because it's not true. I'm not claiming that they excel in all areas but they still have their uses. In most lists you face you will find a fairly decent use foe them. Sure in some games they won't be as effective and I've played games like that, but I've played far more games when they carried the game. And sure maybe the people I play may come up with lists to counter it (although I doubt they will) and then that's a limitation of the list. But that's what I do, I write the best list I feel I can for a codex and then I play it out against as many opponents and lists as I can to see how it performs.

 

OT, I don't change my list dependant on who I play because I only really write 1, maybe 2 lists. What I do change dependant on my opponent is how strict I am on ruling etc. If I'm up against a weak list I'm far more forgiving in terms on LoS, cover, them forgetting to move things, reserves etc and I try and make it as fun as I can for them. And unless they're some annoying person who only cares about winning rather than playing the game they tend to still enjoy the game even if it doesn't go well for them. I've played people that are right mopey gits when it comes to bad rolling etc and I've beaten them into the ground and they still said it was an enjoyable game. And on the upside of this I've seen them learning from their mistakes and get better at using their armies. In fact a friend of mine beat me for the first time the other day and his change in generalship is showing all because of this. And despite losing all those times he still wants to play me because you can still make the game fun without taking a list that is evenly matched with your opponent.

[Zagman]

I've also run into PsyRifleDreads with my DriagoWing, needless to say they didn't scare me very much and I tore them apart nearly tabling the GK by T5. Again, a situation where the PsyRifleDreads were not very useful. They are a great unit, but relying solely on spamming them to be the biggest strength of your army is a mistake. I very simple want to state that they do have some disadvantages. Against most opponents they'll be nigh unstoppable, but against others they won't be that effective.

 

See, you're putting out examples of armies that most people, particularly competitive people, won't play, and that's sort of giving people the wrong idea. Playing "what if you face this list" scenarios is silly, especially with lists people don't often play. Majority of people play mech, psyflemen are great against mech, therefore they are the best choice in the Heavy Support slot for Grey Knights. A truly balanced list would beat Draigowing anyways if it's well built.

 

Do you think the outcome of the game would have been different had they taken Land Raiders, Purgations, or Dreadknights? I would say probably not, and I would say the opponent was either a poor general or had an overall poor list, but I don't know, I wasn't there and I'm not going to ask for a batrep anyways as that's just wasting time.

 

I don't think taking the best choice of a slot in any book is cheesy, friendly game or a no, I want a challenge when I play and I want to offer challenges to people I play, and I would hope my opponents have the same mentality. If you're not playing to win, why bother playing? The object of the game is to win, the point of the game is to have fun, and that fun should come from the challenges of playing the game, and that includes taking the best options available in an attempt to win. Of course, if you're completely steamrolling EVERYONE you play with your list locally, you might want to play with less powerful options for the sake of not getting bored. After all, winning all the time is IMHO worse than losing all the time.

 

Sure, playing themed armies is fun (I dislike the use of "fluffy" because any army that comes from a codex comes from options available to that army and is therefore "fluffy") and cool with narratives and such, but I'm a bigger fan of playing an exciting game where I don't know if I can pull out a win or not until the game ends.

 

Anyways, if people complain you're being cheesy and start refusing to play you because of your Dreadnoughts, find other people to play with, and if you can't, well then stop using them. Playing games of any sort is better than playing no games at all, right?

 

Firstly, please don't insult the player I was playing against. He is generally considered the best player in our area and was not fielding a "poor list". It was his first potential Ard Boyz list actually, which was a Crowe purifiers list with a librarian, LR, vindicare, and dreads. And this is nothing but a simple example of where they were less than useful. Actually it takes an unbalanced build to take out DriagoWing effectively. "Balanced" builds cannot field enough S8+ AP2- weaponry to do the job.

 

Dark Angels Assault Terminators list is a rather competitive list which has the ability to severely hurt many lists. There are many lists which could pose a problem for example a Leman Russ heavy list. My point that I have been trying to make is that spamming PsyRifleDreads may not be the best option all of the time. There are lists which will beat you in a rock paper scissors match up which is how truly competitive play can end up. When you spam single choice across and entire FOC slot, or two FOC slots you lose versatility and create a weakness versus other types of build.

 

And I have never said that PsyRifleDreads are a bad choice and people should avoid them. I have simply stated that spamming them across all slots can prove to be a mistake against certain builds. They are a great unit and I recommended long ago, when the thread was on topic that he should take two. I am a huge proponent of using them, just not of spamming the across all slots.

[TyrionTheImp]

I never insulted him, if I was insulting him I'd say "Your opponent sucked and his list sucked...blah blah blah", but no I said I don't know, and said what I would say. You said it was his first potential 'Ard Boyz list, well there you go, obviously his army list didn't work if it can't beat 2500 points of Draigo, but I wouldn't say that's of any fault of the Psyflemen being there, his list just isn't optimized yet and he was playtesting, you never mentioned that at all.

 

I know quite well about Deathwing, I play them. I was referring to Draigowing which as of right now isn't competitive, but only time will tell. However, even with my Terminators I would find 12 Twin-linked S8 shots scary, just because of the reliability of wounding.

 

I do agree that taking 6 is a bit much, but I disagree about spamming one thing across all FoC slots is bad. Usually when people spam things across a slot it means whatever they're spamming is good and what they need in that army. Psyflemen give Grey Knights something they don't have a lot of at a great price (and really belong in almost every army anyways): long range high strength firepower, and taking 3 simply is a good idea whether they're Elite slot or Heavy depending on what else you want in your army.

[Zagman]

I never insulted him, if I was insulting him I'd say "Your opponent sucked and his list sucked...blah blah blah", but no I said I don't know, and said what I would say. You said it was his first potential 'Ard Boyz list, well there you go, obviously his army list didn't work if it can't beat 2500 points of Draigo, but I wouldn't say that's of any fault of the Psyflemen being there, his list just isn't optimized yet and he was playtesting, you never mentioned that at all.

 

I know quite well about Deathwing, I play them. I was referring to Draigowing which as of right now isn't competitive, but only time will tell. However, even with my Terminators I would find 12 Twin-linked S8 shots scary, just because of the reliability of wounding.

 

I do agree that taking 6 is a bit much, but I disagree about spamming one thing across all FoC slots is bad. Usually when people spam things across a slot it means whatever they're spamming is good and what they need in that army. Psyflemen give Grey Knights something they don't have a lot of at a great price (and really belong in almost every army anyways): long range high strength firepower, and taking 3 simply is a good idea whether they're Elite slot or Heavy depending on what else you want in your army.

 

It came off that way. The lists wasn't a bad list, his current revision is better and more optimized. Don't assume DriagoWing is by default a push over list. Many lists, even competitive lists can't deliver enough of the right kinds of weaponry to take it down. When PT dreadknights are used they can be made scoring and add a great deal of versatility to the list. This is my themed army which has proven to be made of much sterner stuff that I originally though. The greater problem for his list is a lack of S8+AP2- weaponry which my DriagoWing clearly required in abundance.

 

I don't know why PsyRifleDreads would scare your Deathwing, he'll kill roughly 1.5 models a turn with his 400pts of AT. 3 models if he fills both FOC slots. You should look forward to an enemy attempting that.

 

I will reiterate that IMO the PsyRifleDread is a fantastic unit but does not need to be spammed across all available slots.

[maturin]

So the question that must be faced is that in friendly play (It is my opinion that in competitive play anything legal goes) but for just playing with friends should we avoid taking 3 Psyrifles?

 

Arguments against:

Three of the same Heavy Support choices is kinda bland

It will be seen as abusing a good option

 

Aguments for:

We have been the underdogs for long enough

They are one of only a few beyond 24inch weapons

They are still just on a dreadnought which isnt that hard to take down. One good lascanon shot and its gone.

 

I would really say there is nothing wrong with it, but I understand that others will give you the stink eye.

 

(Note: This is not about whether you can do it, as obviously you can, but whether you should in a friendly enviorment)

 

The thing is - the only "correct" answer to this question will not be found on the B&C, or anywhere on the internet, which is composed of a bunch of people who will likely never meet and play against each other.

 

The only way to answer your question "correctly" is to ask the people you play against, whether that's at your FLGS, your basement, your local GW, or at the tournaments you attend. Every location will have its own answer.

 

And if you don't like the answer you get, saying "But the consensus on the B&C was yada yada yada" won't help you out a single bit.

 

So go and play, and have fun, however it is that you define it.

[The Holy Heretic]

Nob Bikerz, Mech. Guard etc. are great examples of competitive lists that was accompanied by a lot of internet whining. Now these will be countered by The GK Psyfleman Posse, and so the meta will change, and players who like the less complex rock-paper-scissors game will change their lists according to internet whims.

 

This is all perfectly acceptable in the competitive environment e.g. tournaments and your LGS, where you play random geeks to satisfy your ego. Who cares, its just one game, and then you move on. There are no preconceptions about this being about anything but the win.

 

Now take a casual game among friends, where you gather once a month for beer, pretzels and plastic dolls. You meet to have fun, socialize and roll some dice. The adolescent, intellectual masturbation of fielding "huge guns" is abandoned for fielding less focused and more varied forces to avoid quick one sided face offs, and give everybody room to play with all their toys ^_^

 

Basically. By focusing your lists in this way, you limit the lists that will provide a fun, challenging game to play against - some will get tabled, while others will table you. OTOH the fun of a good challenge might not be what you seek, and you might prefer shooting your load of big guns at a relative pushover.

 

Do it your way, under the proper conventions. Just don't crash my bi-monthly B&P games with your lists of doom and boredom :huh:

[Gentlemanloser]

I think your group is in a situation where both sides need to find a happy medium to live on. The best you can do gentlemen is try new lists, see what works and what doesn't. Just keep experimenting, don't stick with a list you already watched destroy your opponent. Encourage your opponent to keep trying to craft ways to counter you. Your list is not unstoppable. GK are not that far above the other teams. Your opponents need to find better ways to counter you, and because you are friends you can do this in a friendly manner.

 

Oh I do. ;) Every game so far I've play a new list. Next up, will be Draigo and a 10 man ally Squad.

 

Well, game after next. Next game versus the Marine player, my group wants to see the outcome of him using 3K points versus the old 2K list I used to near table him.

 

While I'm sure I'll be handidly beaten, my group expect me to beat him again, with the 1K point disadvantage. They want to show me how 'op' my new Dex is.

 

That's not gonna stop me trying to beat him though! :tu:

 

See your post relies very heavily on the fact that GK can't make themselves be not overpowered, or at least that's the tone you take. I would argue that perhaps your friends need to step it up just a little bit. A bunch of sterngaurd shooting kraken bolts should be pretty snazy against your army. Any AP3 should work wonders against your army. So it becomes a learning experience for you all. The goal, or course, being to find a place where you are all enjoying the game.

 

His list had three Sternguard Squads in Rhinos. I abused them. ;)

 

But yeah, one of my major problems at the moment is that I can't drop things like all power weapons or all force weapons (I don't like henchmen, my group know this, and I don't have any mini's for them anyway! So that's not an option!).

 

And I feel it's going to (quickly) reach a point where either my opponent *have* to tailor just to beating me and step up thier game to the highest levels they can, or no one will want to play the GK and games will grind to a halt.

 

But, out of all of this, none of them find the Psyrifle Dread to be an issue. 3, or 6. Taking out Dreads has never been problematic, and Psyfilemen don't even start to scatch the surface of stuff that should be 'avoided' in the 'dex. Unlike I6 Power Weapons, Rad Grenades and even (as theorised, which I hope to disprove when used) Draigo. ;)

 

Apparently if you aren't using just purifiers and dreads you're doing it wrong.

 

LoL! Don't get me wrong. I think if anyone uses GKT, they're doing it wrong. ;) And that the internal balance of units in the 'dex is terrible. :P

 

As for your last point, if someone brings 6 psyflemen to a friendly game I would immediately know this is a min/maxer who has no idea how to play a friendly game and only seeks victory at all costs.

 

Really?

 

I ran a 6 dread 'nilla SM Master of the Forge army for a couple of games. It was a 'for fun' list, that didn't really do too well. People can easily avoid slow 6" moving dreads, and they die (even AV13 Ironclads) too easily to really make much of a threat. Plus they can't Score.

 

I wouldn't class a GK 6 Dread list as WAAC, or to be anything other the a 'for fun' list. While potentially ours can Score, and are hard to stop shooting, they still die the same as SM Dreads, and can easily be kited/avoided.

 

Now, BA Dreads with eithe rFrag Cannons of Paired Blood Talons, that's another matter.

 

Running a Psuedo new GK list with the Bangles before our Dex came out, I used a 2 Raven, SG list with 2 Paired BT Dreads. These guys were unstoppable, and *instantly* labelled as a chessy WAAC unit from our group. ;)

[number6]

As opposed to the Zhukov dick measuring contest that completely ignored the OPs point.

This. Will. Stop. NOW. :lol:

 

That's merely one of the more egregious examples of B&C rule-breaking in this topic, but far from the only one.

 

People need to understand that when concepts are criticized it isn't necessarily a personal attack.

 

We're talking about a game with plastic fantasy soldiers. There is simply no excuse for taking your point of view so seriously.

 

If you're going to accuse Zhukov of "dick measuring", then I insist there are several other posters in this topic who should stand accused of the same.

 

This is shameful and beneath all of you. If I have to shut this topic down, If I have to start handing down warnings, I will.

 

But I would rather that we remember how to behave as intelligent adults. And as adults, we're mature enough to understand that not everybody is going to agree with us. That what some of us consider "correct" is probably "wrong" to somebody else. And we need to remember how to accept differences of opinion respectfully.

[Zhukov]

I don't really mind Number6, stuff like this always happens when people get confronted with other thoughts (and especially as I haven't been active in this part of the forum I guess; Hi, I'm Zjoekov ^^). And I actually never feel offended, why should I? Because some random people shouting some stuff? ^_^

 

I'll try to keep it friendly and I'll try to clear up some things:

 

These are all really good questions gentleman. As opposed to the Zhukov dick measuring contest that completely ignored the OPs point. I'm sorry but it really bothers me when you see a mentality prevail that unless someone is using their entire elite and heavy support slots with psyflemen they are idiots... Apparently if you aren't using just purifiers and dreads you're doing it wrong.

I'm not ignoring the OP his point. I replied to that first. This Psyflemen discussion wasn't started by me, I'm merely replying to it. I also nowhere said that people should take more than 3 Psyflemen, I'm merely defending the viability of it. I also nowhere said that you should Purifiers.

 

So that's at least 3 things you accuse me of and I didn't say even one of them? Okay lol.

 

Ok, see the point where you say "Insults? Disagreeing and point out where people fail is insulting?" That is an insult.

I still fail to see how this is insulting anybody? I'm only arguing against thoughts you have about the game, nowhere did I make it personal and nowhere did I call names.

It's rahter ironic, people always say they want to hear the truth; but in real they rarely want it: they hate being proved wrong.

 

I have been attempting to point out that the PsyRifleDread is not the be all end all of units. It has its weaknesses.

Agree, nowhere did I disagree with that. I only said you were pointing wrong weaknesses out (deepstriking melta isn't a major weakness; things like Wolf Scouts or fast moving melta is much worse, simple long range AT fire will take care of them too. Hey see: It's almost like it's and AV12 vehicle :P )

 

I'll give a very simple example against that nice list you posted. A Dark Angels Assault Terminators list with Cyclone Missile launchers. That list will absolutely devastate a 2k list where 990pts are spend on S8 AP4 weapons. See there is a very SIMPLE example of a situation for those who struggle with complex though(see insult, not very nice of me, huh?) where PsyRifleDreads aren't an auto win.

I'm not seeing the insult: At worst you're making fun of yourself. See, you can try to act all "I can be like you!!", but that's not enough. You actually gotta be right too. I was waiting for this example, because indeed it's obvious. At first glance at least ;)

 

You're wrong, sorry. Why? Because you think too simple: Deathwing doesn't easily destroy Av12, especially not the kind which can move and fire, ignores stunned and hasn't got AV10 in combat. Why? Missiles aren't that hot at actually killing Av12. Ven Dreads? Even worse. I guess you gotta agree with this; this simply can't be denied.

That's only the Dreads, you got 1010 points left to spend on more transports and guys; making this worse.

 

Then the damage output; as I think that's why you think it won't work: You kill about 3 regular Terminators a turn. Yeah, not so hot. However: This also goes for the Command Squad with FnP and they don't only field Terminators: There should be Bikes (who die more easily) and/or Speeders (Hi!) and/or oppposing Dreads (Hi!). You kill that first. Don't forget: I said I would personally equip the Vens with MM's on the one arm.

So: First you actually kill things with them which they do efficiently. After that: Are the Psyflemen still alive or were they a big enough threat to kill? What if I lock some Terminator squads in CC with Ven Dreads? You can't do nothing about that. What if I just keep firing for another 3 or 4 turns and so killing 2 complete Terminator squads on top the other units. (again keep in mind, you're fielding around 1500 points of termies max)

Hmm...Maybe they do actually more than you think?

 

And the rest of my army? Have they been doing nothing or might Deathwing actually trouble against a hail of stormbolters backed up by powerswords? What if the GK player has Las/Plas Razors too?

 

Terminators are 40 points a piece; they die 1/6 in a time to wound. Don't act like Terminators are mysteriously hard to kill: They aren't, they die to weight of fire. You know when it's dangerous? If you can't kill them quick enough when you are very vulnerable to Close Combat (Like static gunlines). However: GK's aren't. You actually do stuff in combat and can move while you keep firing. Warpquake means Terminators actually have to start quite some distance away if you want that.

 

Let's turn it the other way: How on earth is Deathwing going to kill all those non-stunnable Dreadnought backed up by 30+ MEQ and transports while they only have a handfull of Missiles (20 max and then I'm being generous; counting speeders too) and some stormbolters?!

 

Will it be a walkover for the GK player? Of course not; Deathwing is fairly competitive, just like GK's and as both lists are balanced (yes really, you can balance lists with 6 Dreads) it's an exciting matchup down to skill and dice (:

 

I've also run into PsyRifleDreads with my DriagoWing, needless to say they didn't scare me very much and I tore them apart nearly tabling the GK by T5. Again, a situation where the PsyRifleDreads were not very useful.

Sorry man, but unless you provide more info this is useless as personal 'evidence' usually is. What if I told you now that I owned a Draigowing with a 6 Dread list? See my point?

 

They are a great unit, but relying solely on spamming them to be the biggest strength of your army is a mistake. I very simple want to state that they do have some disadvantages. Against most opponents they'll be nigh unstoppable, but against others they won't be that effective.

Agree and disagree; they have disadvantages (hey look; 40k is pretty balanced!) but taking quite some of them can be fine if you know what you're doing.

[Grimtooth]

Despite what has been said and despite the fantasy tailored lists to DECIMATEDESTROYANNHILIATE:cussPWNBBQ a 3 GK rifle dread set-up, they are probably the overall best choice for an all comers list.

[KnowThyEnemy]

Sorry man, but unless you provide more info this is useless as personal 'evidence' usually is. What if I told you now that I owned a Draigowing with a 6 Dread list? See my point?

 

GENIUS!!!. What about 5 dreads and a vindicare? massively outnumbered but o so funny :wallbash:

Draigo

10 Pallies (4 x Psycannon, Apoth, Falcions)

1 Pallie

2 Ven Dreads (2 x twin auto, psybolts)

Vindicare

3 Dreads (2 x twin auto, psybolts)

 

p.s. number 6, fantastic touch with the color change and the flamie smily face. BURN THE HERETICS!

[Zhukov]

Oh I meant owned in the sense of 'beaten up' a Draigowing army; while I played with a Dread/Psyflemen heavy army, but doesn't matter haha. If all else fails, at least that's a manly Draigo army right there :wallbash:

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I dunno if anyone else already mentioned this (as I'm lazy and I'm not going to wade through the entire thread), but doesn't it strike you as boring to take 3 x PsyDreads? I mean, you're avoiding taking our coolest and most hyped unit ever, the Dreadknight. I'm pretty sure Dreadknights are competitive (re-roll everything forever sword, personal teleporter, MC statline, Termie armour, alright guns), they look cool and they offer something different to the usual Marine staples of Dread/Rhino/power-armoured or Termie armoured manz. There is also the feeling of supreme satisfaction when you say 'yeah 2+ armour' and their krak missiles etc just patter off him.

 

I get by currently with just one PsyDread and a Vindicare (Vindicare is still on the fence, although he did headshot that Emperor's Champion and that Landraider in my last game so...eenie meenie myne moe), so it's not like a must-have to fit in two, but I certainly plan to take 2 in larger games (Purgators are complete trash, Landraiders = too costly when stacked on top of my army tax for Crowe and the per-model price difference to Marines). They're good enough to warrant a pair in say a 2k list, but 3 seems boring. Just sayin.

[Grimtooth]

Since you are breaking it down to a personal opinion, I think the DK is crappity crappity crap and taking one would be equivalent to me hopping up on the gaming table, dropping trou, and dropping a steamer on the oval base and saying check out my custom DK.

 

I see nothing boring about watching transports explode and envisioning buddies flying through the air.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Have you actually used a Dreadknight? I don't care about your opinions of how it looks (I know there are plenty who dislike it on that basis), I just mean the way it operates in an actual battle. It eats infantry and tanks pretty handily, and it has the mobility to avoid fights you don't wanna have (or, as I did in one game, draw out heavy-hitting assault units with it's sacrifice, letting me gun them down from safety). Ignore the guns, take greatsword+teleporter, have a few games with it, then tell me it's terrible and worthless.

 

The problem with your 'vision' is that it doesn't usually manifest. PsyDreads are good, but I've had my fair share of fails with them (because unlike the Dreadknight, I can't re-roll bad penetration or damage rolls). Light armour is no problem to damage, but extra armour or cover saves from smokes/congo lines does start to screw with your actual impact (because it takes multiple damage results to break, or even just sufficiently disable). Even focus firing doesn't really solve the problem, as instead of breaking two tanks, you're only breaking one (if that). Dreadknight bypass said problem because he attacks in close-combat (although even with re-rolls, getting those 6's or 4+ is sometimes a real pain).

[Grimtooth]

Have you actually used a Dreadknight? I don't care about your opinions of how it looks (I know there are plenty who dislike it on that basis), I just mean the way it operates in an actual battle. It eats infantry and tanks pretty handily, and it has the mobility to avoid fights you don't wanna have (or, as I did in one game, draw out heavy-hitting assault units with it's sacrifice, letting me gun them down from safety). Ignore the guns, take greatsword+teleporter, have a few games with it, then tell me it's terrible and worthless.

 

The problem with your 'vision' is that it doesn't usually manifest. PsyDreads are good, but I've had my fair share of fails with them (because unlike the Dreadknight, I can't re-roll bad penetration or damage rolls). Light armour is no problem to damage, but extra armour or cover saves from smokes/congo lines does start to screw with your actual impact (because it takes multiple damage results to break, or even just sufficiently disable). Even focus firing doesn't really solve the problem, as instead of breaking two tanks, you're only breaking one (if that). Dreadknight bypass said problem because he attacks in close-combat (although even with re-rolls, getting those 6's or 4+ is sometimes a real pain).

 

Hahahahhaha!

 

You brought up the point that it was boring, something that has absolutely no bearing at all on how they perform in an all comers list, I wa making fun of that line of reasoning.

 

But look at your basic DK build of great sword and personal teleporter, 100pts more expensive then the basic rifle dread. Taking 3 DK, is suddenly 300 ponts more and you are relying on your shutto get you into range to wait a turn to blow up tanks in close combat. That is a a great use of points for a dedicated tank crusher..../sarcasm off.

 

Your personal experience is not what the numbers say. Str 8 rifle dreads are destroying transports the majority of the time putting enemy troops on foot and having to wade into GK awesome midrange fire.

[Prathios]

Have you actually used a Dreadknight? I don't care about your opinions of how it looks (I know there are plenty who dislike it on that basis), I just mean the way it operates in an actual battle. It eats infantry and tanks pretty handily, and it has the mobility to avoid fights you don't wanna have (or, as I did in one game, draw out heavy-hitting assault units with it's sacrifice, letting me gun them down from safety). Ignore the guns, take greatsword+teleporter, have a few games with it, then tell me it's terrible and worthless.

 

The problem with your 'vision' is that it doesn't usually manifest. PsyDreads are good, but I've had my fair share of fails with them (because unlike the Dreadknight, I can't re-roll bad penetration or damage rolls). Light armour is no problem to damage, but extra armour or cover saves from smokes/congo lines does start to screw with your actual impact (because it takes multiple damage results to break, or even just sufficiently disable). Even focus firing doesn't really solve the problem, as instead of breaking two tanks, you're only breaking one (if that). Dreadknight bypass said problem because he attacks in close-combat (although even with re-rolls, getting those 6's or 4+ is sometimes a real pain).

 

Hahahahhaha!

 

You brought up the point that it was boring, something that has absolutely no bearing at all on how they perform in an all comers list, I wa making fun of that line of reasoning.

 

But look at your basic DK build of great sword and personal teleporter, 100pts more expensive then the basic rifle dread. Taking 3 DK, is suddenly 300 ponts more and you are relying on your shutto get you into range to wait a turn to blow up tanks in close combat. That is a a great use of points for a dedicated tank crusher..../sarcasm off.

 

Your personal experience is not what the numbers say. Str 8 rifle dreads are destroying transports the majority of the time putting enemy troops on foot and having to wade into GK awesome midrange fire.

 

What I find silly about this line of reasoning is that killing transports is not something this army needs help with. Everyone is so excited about all the transport killing these can do... we have psycannons. Psycannons don't care about transports either. They come equipped to virtually everything we can take. Everyone talks about how much we need anti armor stuff... Psycannon spam puts us in league to kill anything we want. Rather than shutting down the idea of using something like an NDK which can reliably put down heavy armor, we laugh at it? Again killing transports does not really excite in an army full of psycannons so much that I want to spend more points to specialize in it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you want you could run six psynauts. People have been spamming non-Troop choices for a long long time... If you played back in 3ed you probably remember eldar spamming star cannons like crazy. My philosophy is if it's legal then don't get all bent out of shape about it. :)

 

G :D

[Grimtooth]

Have you actually used a Dreadknight? I don't care about your opinions of how it looks (I know there are plenty who dislike it on that basis), I just mean the way it operates in an actual battle. It eats infantry and tanks pretty handily, and it has the mobility to avoid fights you don't wanna have (or, as I did in one game, draw out heavy-hitting assault units with it's sacrifice, letting me gun them down from safety). Ignore the guns, take greatsword+teleporter, have a few games with it, then tell me it's terrible and worthless.

 

The problem with your 'vision' is that it doesn't usually manifest. PsyDreads are good, but I've had my fair share of fails with them (because unlike the Dreadknight, I can't re-roll bad penetration or damage rolls). Light armour is no problem to damage, but extra armour or cover saves from smokes/congo lines does start to screw with your actual impact (because it takes multiple damage results to break, or even just sufficiently disable). Even focus firing doesn't really solve the problem, as instead of breaking two tanks, you're only breaking one (if that). Dreadknight bypass said problem because he attacks in close-combat (although even with re-rolls, getting those 6's or 4+ is sometimes a real pain).

 

Hahahahhaha!

 

You brought up the point that it was boring, something that has absolutely no bearing at all on how they perform in an all comers list, I wa making fun of that line of reasoning.

 

But look at your basic DK build of great sword and personal teleporter, 100pts more expensive then the basic rifle dread. Taking 3 DK, is suddenly 300 ponts more and you are relying on your shutto get you into range to wait a turn to blow up tanks in close combat. That is a a great use of points for a dedicated tank crusher..../sarcasm off.

 

Your personal experience is not what the numbers say. Str 8 rifle dreads are destroying transports the majority of the time putting enemy troops on foot and having to wade into GK awesome midrange fire.

 

What I find silly about this line of reasoning is that killing transports is not something this army needs help with. Everyone is so excited about all the transport killing these can do... we have psycannons. Psycannons don't care about transports either. They come equipped to virtually everything we can take. Everyone talks about how much we need anti armor stuff... Psycannon spam puts us in league to kill anything we want. Rather than shutting down the idea of using something like an NDK which can reliably put down heavy armor, we laugh at it? Again killing transports does not really excite in an army full of psycannons so much that I want to spend more points to specialize in it.

 

Psycannons are 24" Autocannons are 48". Putting troops on foot at 48" is better then putting them on foot at 24". Once in range of the psycannons, they become superior to the autocannons due to combined weight of fire and rending.

[Ashe Darke]

^Exactly. I played my mates DE yesterday and just took everything out of the sky with thee Dreads. You really think it would have happened with psycannons? Like I'd have been allowed to get anywhere near him.

 

As for the DK, I've ran dual Nurgle Warptime Princes and from what I can see they do it better, sure I have to roll for my re-rolls and I don't have 2+ armour or the ability to go to S7 but they're pretty damn cheap and can hide behind a Land Raider. Now this guy, the build I would run is 230pts and he suffers from being only able to cover at best and do you think that he'd be able to survive all those dark lances and poisoned weapons from that game? Don't get me wrong I love a MC who can re-roll anything but it's missing something, or maybe it's got too much of something (hehehe) but it doesn't make up for long range.

[Prathios]

What I don't understand is that somehow the absence of psyflemen, in the train of thought here I've been seeing, is a vacuum. That somehow by not taking them you've just got an empty slot in your force, that nothing can go there and be of use. They are good, but they are not the greatest thing to ever exist in a codex, you don't have to worship at their feet or make an argument for why they have to be taken at every turn. Nobody in this whole argument has said they are bad. The entire thing has been over the abuse of them or the using of them like a crutch.

 

Do I think those DE would have died if you hadn't taken them? Depends on what you spent those points on. It's called opportunity cost, whatever you take in your list was at the cost of everything else. I think you could have spent those points just as validly on several options, I think the NDK is one of them. It just boggles my mind that someone would make a pissing joke at the NDK while showing fervent zealot like devotion to the psyflemen. As 6 said earlier, it's a game guys, not a religion. Psyflemen are good, great even, not irreplaceable.

[DeathKorpsman]

What I don't understand is that somehow the absence of psyflemen, in the train of thought here I've been seeing, is a vacuum. That somehow by not taking them you've just got an empty slot in your force, that nothing can go there and be of use. They are good, but they are not the greatest thing to ever exist in a codex, you don't have to worship at their feet or make an argument for why they have to be taken at every turn. Nobody in this whole argument has said they are bad. The entire thing has been over the abuse of them or the using of them like a crutch.

 

Do I think those DE would have died if you hadn't taken them? Depends on what you spent those points on. It's called opportunity cost, whatever you take in your list was at the cost of everything else. I think you could have spent those points just as validly on several options, I think the NDK is one of them. It just boggles my mind that someone would make a pissing joke at the NDK while showing fervent zealot like devotion to the psyflemen. As 6 said earlier, it's a game guys, not a religion. Psyflemen are good, great even, not irreplaceable.

Like some of the other posters throughout the thread, I have a hard time wrapping my head around what counts as unit abuse. Are 6 squads of tactical marines abusive? What about 3 speeder squadrons? When the Eldar dex first came out, 3 Wraithlords was OP and anyone who played that way was a cheeseball. Now they get laughed at with their slow, easy to kill MC's (personally I still think the WL is great, but 3 is probably a waste). Is it abusive if the unit is good in a vacuum, or is it abusive because the rest of your list makes it good?

 

Abusive builds are far worse, IMO, than abusive units. With the right builds, generally sub par units can really shine. With the right build and even a modicum of tactical sense even an inexperience general can steamroll other builds that aren't OP. This can be true even if the OP build has many units that are usually in the sub par range of effectiveness. Like running a Culexus around in a Chimera followed by a bunch of Psykers (the type) blasting entire squads to ash. On its own, in a vacuum, the Culexus isn't OP. If someone throws it in a certain build, it can be devastating. This isn't the best example of an OP build, just one of the more extreme.

 

I also don't see the problem with people having a favorite slot choice. I have several units that I always take to fill certain slots. Is that abusive? I don't think so. I won't begrudge someone for liking a unit because of its stats instead of liking the unit for its backstory or looks and I'd expect opponents not to begrudge me in the same way. As a Guard player, I get the OP bat thrown at me just for showing up at the table, so any units I take are past the level of abuse already. ;)

 

Frankly, the Psyrifle Dread seems like a clear winner in the Heavy slots. The Ven version is alright, but spendy and Elite slots have other really solid options. NDK's I'm not sold on yet and at over half a hundred bucks for a model I don't particularly like it probably never will be. The good old dread though, now that's a winner. Especially when it is packing quad autocannons and looks like something out of Robotech. How can that not be a win? B)

[KnowThyEnemy]

the reason the abscence of psyrifle dreads is seen as a vacuum is the lack of cheap and viable options in the heavy slot. what else would you take for ~400 pts that could deal so well with armour at range?

 

you've stated that land raiders are too pricey, id argue a regular one is worth it if you deploy correctly and keep those deepstrikers away. the other benefit to land raiders is they're ability to attrack every single AT option on the field. if your lucky, your opponent will keep trying to blow it up while you go about your business elsewhere. so a landraider and 1 psyrifle dread comes in at a little under 400, thats an option.

 

purgation squads aren't that viable of an option (remember, talking about ranged AT). even with a 12" rhino move and deploy, your looking 38" at the very max. thats great until you realise you just put your HS shooters with basic power armour 14" closer to the enemy, leaving them open to possible counter attacks. most people would run them in 5 man squads to just get the 4 psycannons, that means you have 1 power weapon in there to fend off that assault, no bueno

 

DK are nice, until you realise that they only have 4 wounds. remember, AT hunting only works if you can survive that 1st round of shooting/assault. weight of fire and plasma are not your friend, which are both better at close range. i've deep striked in enough terminators to realise the consistency issue here.

 

psyrifle dreads on the other hand are the cheapest option here. they are also putting out 4 S8 shots per dread. with twin linked, id say its reasonible to assume that those 4 shots are hitting most of the time, giving you 4 shots to get through whatever your shooting at. theres also the fact they can tar pit units that get close to any objective they may be around. definately a last resort, but games can be won or lost on your ability to stop your opponent moving up. and when your done shooting at armour? try shooting them at any HQ squads or multi-wound squads that may be lurking out there. S8 will ID a lottttt of things in this game, since T5 and eterenal warrior aren't the most common of things (not saying people dont use them, just that each codex has limited access to them, if at all).

 

keep in mind 2 DK will cost mid 400's, land raider and psyrifle dread just under 400, 2 purgation spam squads between 300-400. all roughly the same price as 3 psyrifle dreads. now there is an effectiveness issue. if you lose 1 DK, how much will that hurt? what about 1 purgation squad? what about (emperor forbid) that landraider? all of the other options rely on your units surving that weight of fire or counterassault. if you happen to lose a dread (missle launchers still need 5+ to pen and then another 5+ to pop him and even then you might be getting cover, if your playing them right. go buddy system! :)), you still have 2 others quite able to take up the slack. your effectiveness drops by 33%, while losing one of the others is a 50%, 66%(i'd say more because i feel a land raider is much more than the sum of its parts) and 50% drop in effectiveness respectively. not trying to mathammer, just thinking logically here.

 

and as brother ramses said, theres nothing boring about making those assault troops waddle down across the field ;)

[antique_nova]

As opposed to the Zhukov dick measuring contest that completely ignored the OPs point.

This. Will. Stop. NOW. :angry:

 

That's merely one of the more egregious examples of B&C rule-breaking in this topic, but far from the only one.

 

People need to understand that when concepts are criticized it isn't necessarily a personal attack.

 

We're talking about a game with plastic fantasy soldiers. There is simply no excuse for taking your point of view so seriously.

 

If you're going to accuse Zhukov of "dick measuring", then I insist there are several other posters in this topic who should stand accused of the same.

 

This is shameful and beneath all of you. If I have to shut this topic down, If I have to start handing down warnings, I will.

 

But I would rather that we remember how to behave as intelligent adults. And as adults, we're mature enough to understand that not everybody is going to agree with us. That what some of us consider "correct" is probably "wrong" to somebody else. And we need to remember how to accept differences of opinion respectfully.

 

This. Is. SPARTA :D

 

But yea, this thread is too interesting to close, so obey the almighty mod.

 

and as brother ramses said, theres nothing boring about making those assault troops waddle down across the field :devil:

:devil: too right!

 

not to break it for anyone but that wont be even a dead carnifex as they have 4W. there are better options for MC killing instead of psirifle dreads.

Who says they have to camp? I always keep them moving with my GK so that my dreads can get into a better view to 'pew pew' xenos to death. Failing that, they can go and tie up enemy units, until my other units can bring the force swords/halberds.

 

thanks

antique_nova