3 Psyrifle Dreadnoughts

[The Holy Heretic]

Aren't this discussion going from whether X psyflemen are cheesy, to whether they're worth it compared to the other heavy slots? :angry:

 

I think we can all agree on the psyfleman being a very effective unit, but honestly so is the DK - at least in my limited experience - and the other choices will probably prove their worth too, when I get around to them.

 

Sure the psyfleman spam will look cheesy, when you're up against an opponent spamming light vehicles, and they'll prove 'nearly worthless' vs. a footslogging MEQ army. That is the nature of such Spam X Unit lists, as they reduce the game to a simple rock-paper-scissors game. In this light I wouldn't call them cheesy, but they do have a decent chance of spoling your fun by having a bad match-up. :devil:

 

I like my dreadnoughts, I like my towering DK, I like cooking marines in their armour with my lumbering redeemer raider. I like having different options and being forced to approach every battle in a new way and being forced to conserve my troops instead of just relying on redundancy. It just makes for better games, so I really can't understand why anyone would ever simplify their game and reduce the challenge by just spamming unit X? :devil:

[Gentlemanloser]

As for the worth of a NDK, do you take Terminators?

 

How much do 4 x S4/T4 Temrinators cost? For 30 points left, you can get a NDK, which is a S6/T6 4W MC, with Terminator Save.

 

That 30 Point difference can be spent on a Gattling Psilencer, giving you 12 x 24" S4 shots (which wounds Daemons on 2+) instead of 8 S4 Storm bolters.

 

So, point for point, if you take any Terminators in your list, why wouldn't a NDK be 'worth' it?

 

;)

[KnowThyEnemy]

ah gentleman, you mistake me for a person who dislikes the DK. I have 2 in fact, posed quite nice, awaiting some paint. its a great model with pretty decent stats and some neat tricks. my only issue is i cant see taking it for a ranged AT role. i wouldn't mind running 2 dreads and a DK, the only issue is my DK always comes out expensive :).

 

but, along the lines of the OP (don't want to be emoticoned to death), i dont consider taking dreads in numbers as cheesy because they fulfill a very special role that we lack. if we had a heavy weapon that shot even 36", i might be prone to changing my mind (could you imagine 36" S7 Rending, Heavy 2 Assault 4 Psycannons that ignore invulns? :woot: ) but since we dont have that option, i stand by my "not cheesy, its butter" opinion. if making a solid all-rounder list to handle whatever an enemy can throw at you is cheesy, let me introduce myself. Call me Mr. Swiss B)

 

p.s. fun to me means beating the enemies biggest and baddest into submission. that is in terms of minis. if you pull back the camera, youd see a guy whose always willing to talk out a perceived issue, never one to hold you to a declared shot or assault (so long as you havent already done it of course, no taksies-backsies :)), dont care if you forget to move in some guys who were obviously going to assault but you got caught up in the moment. im always smiling, dont mind compromising and love a fun pickup game just as much as anyone else here does. even in tournaments, theres still room for wiggle if your attitude is right.

 

and thats my point: attitude. if you have the right one, this game is super enjoyable even if your dudesmen are getting stomped into the ground by a super-competative 'ard boyz list. if you have a bad one though, even those dominate victories will feel hollow, because youve completely missed the Most Important Rule. "cheese!" i find is mostly (see: not always) called out by people who just want things to go their way or who just cant build a solid competative list to cope. You can't really change the first thing, just smile as you throw those dice, but the second is easy: give them some pointers, take a look at their lists and ask them what they think about when they put one together. you deal with dreads the same way you did before: shoot them with plenty of AT before they shoot you or tarpit them with a throw-away unit (looking at you kroot at termegaunts)

[Gentlemanloser]

:P

 

My post above was (supposed to be!) aimed generally, a question to the community, not against anyone specifically!

 

I love the NDK! I tihnk it could have been better, but if I had the cash, I'd get two more. The pose on mine came out a little, wonky, which I'm still trying to get over!

 

Agreed on the long range firepower, and I too don't think I'll run any of the shooting option on the NDK. Which is a shame, as it wastes the fire both weapons bonus MCs get.

[antique_nova]

:tu:

 

My post above was (supposed to be!) aimed generally, a question to the community, not against anyone specifically!

 

I love the NDK! I tihnk it could have been better, but if I had the cash, I'd get two more. The pose on mine came out a little, wonky, which I'm still trying to get over!

 

Agreed on the long range firepower, and I too don't think I'll run any of the shooting option on the NDK. Which is a shame, as it wastes the fire both weapons bonus MCs get.

 

The DK just reminds me of big foot, but turned into a mechanical puppet controlled by a smaller big foot with TDA :D.

 

EDIT: With less hair and more righteous fury of course!

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Reclusiarch Darius]

edit because I just read GentlemanLosers post (btw, props for promoting the Dreadknight!)

 

That 30 Point difference can be spent on a Gattling Psilencer, giving you 12 x 24" S4 shots (which wounds Daemons on 2+) instead of 8 S4 Storm bolters

 

Or you could spend those 30 points on something good, like a heavy incinerator, or anything else. Srsly, gatling silencer is complete garbage. Ask Guard players how their Punisher Russes are working out lol.

 

You brought up the point that it was boring, something that has absolutely no bearing at all on how they perform in an all comers list, I wa making fun of that line of reasoning.

 

Oh okay. I'm still a little confused though...

 

But look at your basic DK build of great sword and personal teleporter, 100pts more expensive then the basic rifle dread. Taking 3 DK, is suddenly 300 ponts more and you are relying on your shutto get you into range to wait a turn to blow up tanks in close combat. That is a a great use of points for a dedicated tank crusher..../sarcasm off.

 

No wait, I'm back on the horse. 3x anything is boring. I'm not suggesting you take 3 x Dreadknights, I'm suggesting you not be boring, take the 2 (like I do in larger games), and then use that third slot for a Dreadknight. So, your analysis /=/ mattering.

 

Your personal experience is not what the numbers say. Str 8 rifle dreads are destroying transports the majority of the time putting enemy troops on foot and having to wade into GK awesome midrange fire.

 

(the scene opens to a darkened room. RD is strapped to a torture rack)

- Torturer: What do the numbers mean, Mason!

- RD: Wait, I'll just get my calculator...

- Torturer: They better say what I think they do

- RD: There ya go...(all the Dreads fire one Chimera which popped smoke, on average cause 1 glance and 1 penetrate)

- Torturer: Dammit...

 

What I find silly about this line of reasoning is that killing transports is not something this army needs help with. Everyone is so excited about all the transport killing these can do... we have psycannons. Psycannons don't care about transports either. They come equipped to virtually everything we can take. Everyone talks about how much we need anti armor stuff... Psycannon spam puts us in league to kill anything we want. Rather than shutting down the idea of using something like an NDK which can reliably put down heavy armor, we laugh at it? Again killing transports does not really excite in an army full of psycannons so much that I want to spend more points to specialize in it.

 

I'm sorta half on your side, half not. Yes, when we reach psycannon range, people cry bitter tears of 'Marines aren't allowed to shoot that well!'. Getting in range is the problem however.

 

What I don't understand is that somehow the absence of psyflemen, in the train of thought here I've been seeing, is a vacuum. That somehow by not taking them you've just got an empty slot in your force, that nothing can go there and be of use. They are good, but they are not the greatest thing to ever exist in a codex, you don't have to worship at their feet or make an argument for why they have to be taken at every turn. Nobody in this whole argument has said they are bad. The entire thing has been over the abuse of them or the using of them like a crutch.

 

Do I think those DE would have died if you hadn't taken them? Depends on what you spent those points on. It's called opportunity cost, whatever you take in your list was at the cost of everything else. I think you could have spent those points just as validly on several options, I think the NDK is one of them. It just boggles my mind that someone would make a pissing joke at the NDK while showing fervent zealot like devotion to the psyflemen. As 6 said earlier, it's a game guys, not a religion. Psyflemen are good, great even, not irreplaceable.

 

It's like you reached into my brain, took the idea forming there, and wrote it out better than I could. Damn you ^_^

 

Like some of the other posters throughout the thread, I have a hard time wrapping my head around what counts as unit abuse. Are 6 squads of tactical marines abusive? What about 3 speeder squadrons? When the Eldar dex first came out, 3 Wraithlords was OP and anyone who played that way was a cheeseball. Now they get laughed at with their slow, easy to kill MC's (personally I still think the WL is great, but 3 is probably a waste). Is it abusive if the unit is good in a vacuum, or is it abusive because the rest of your list makes it good?

 

Abusive builds are far worse, IMO, than abusive units. With the right builds, generally sub par units can really shine. With the right build and even a modicum of tactical sense even an inexperience general can steamroll other builds that aren't OP. This can be true even if the OP build has many units that are usually in the sub par range of effectiveness. Like running a Culexus around in a Chimera followed by a bunch of Psykers (the type) blasting entire squads to ash. On its own, in a vacuum, the Culexus isn't OP. If someone throws it in a certain build, it can be devastating. This isn't the best example of an OP build, just one of the more extreme.

 

I don't think in terms of 'abusive' or 'overpowered' (they say 'sore loser' to me), but 'boring and bland' is defintiely something I find abhorrent in other armies. 3 x speeder squadrons are lulzy, not abusive (oh hai autocannons). 6 x Tactical squads is boring and not even that worrying (although in keeping with UltraMoron tradition).3 x Wraithlords is actually both interesting (because you see it in Iyanden armies) and slightly saddening (because it could alternatively mean the Eldar player is a complete noob and doesn't know the awesome winning of Fire Prisms, or simply that he thinks Iyanden armies work anywhere but on paper). Also lol Culexus.

 

I also don't see the problem with people having a favorite slot choice. I have several units that I always take to fill certain slots. Is that abusive? I don't think so. I won't begrudge someone for liking a unit because of its stats instead of liking the unit for its backstory or looks and I'd expect opponents not to begrudge me in the same way. As a Guard player, I get the OP bat thrown at me just for showing up at the table, so any units I take are past the level of abuse already.

 

No I won't begrudge you for it. I'll just say things like 'man thats boring'. Mostly to annoy you as an opponent, but also because it's true. Mind you, if you play 9 x Russ in your Guard, I have nothing to say except "you evil, evil man" :D .

 

Frankly, the Psyrifle Dread seems like a clear winner in the Heavy slots. The Ven version is alright, but spendy and Elite slots have other really solid options. NDK's I'm not sold on yet and at over half a hundred bucks for a model I don't particularly like it probably never will be. The good old dread though, now that's a winner. Especially when it is packing quad autocannons and looks like something out of Robotech. How can that not be a win?

 

A winner, but not the only winner. If you don't wanna pay full price for Dreadknight, I would suggest internets (eBay or Maelstrom Games are my weapons of choice). Even before you get it (trust me, putting it together is heaps of fun), just proxy with a Dread or something. I guarantee with the greatsword+teleporter combo, you'll have people crying about how stupidly OP it is (when it isn't really). Mine regularly eats whole squads and tanks before succumbing, and he's speedy enough to re-deploy where you need him.

 

you've stated that land raiders are too pricey, id argue a regular one is worth it if you deploy correctly and keep those deepstrikers away. the other benefit to land raiders is they're ability to attrack every single AT option on the field. if your lucky, your opponent will keep trying to blow it up while you go about your business elsewhere. so a landraider and 1 psyrifle dread comes in at a little under 400, thats an option.

 

So their chief advantage is that they draw fire? Hey, what else in Heavy will do the same thing, but actually kill stuff too? Oh yeah, Dreadknight ;) .

 

DK are nice, until you realise that they only have 4 wounds. remember, AT hunting only works if you can survive that 1st round of shooting/assault. weight of fire and plasma are not your friend, which are both better at close range. i've deep striked in enough terminators to realise the consistency issue here.

 

Except not everyone plays Guard, and even then, not everyone spams plasma on their Command squads (I know, I tell him otherwise but my local Guard guy is fixated on nade launchers for some unfathomable reason). You'd be surprised how little enemy fire actually scares a DK on turn 1 (lascannons went out of fashion lol), and you don't have to kamikaze charge him every game (although having said that, I often do). If you present other things to shoot at (like PsyDreads, Rhinos, walking Terminators/Paladins), DK will last a fair while (at least until Stormhammers eat him, stupid Black Templars :( ).

 

psyrifle dreads on the other hand are the cheapest option here. they are also putting out 4 S8 shots per dread. with twin linked, id say its reasonible to assume that those 4 shots are hitting most of the time, giving you 4 shots to get through whatever your shooting at. theres also the fact they can tar pit units that get close to any objective they may be around. definately a last resort, but games can be won or lost on your ability to stop your opponent moving up. and when your done shooting at armour? try shooting them at any HQ squads or multi-wound squads that may be lurking out there. S8 will ID a lottttt of things in this game, since T5 and eterenal warrior aren't the most common of things (not saying people dont use them, just that each codex has limited access to them, if at all).

 

Oh it's a good unit, no doubt, but MC's tend to shrug it off (3+ armour saves n all), and real tanks (not weaksauce transports) often only suffer glancing hits. It's very good at its chosen role (which we need, no doubt), but it's not as flexible as you suggest (thankfully it doesn't have to be). The argument isn't about whether PsyDreads are good or not, it's about whether 3 is boring and bland.

 

keep in mind 2 DK will cost mid 400's, land raider and psyrifle dread just under 400, 2 purgation spam squads between 300-400. all roughly the same price as 3 psyrifle dreads. now there is an effectiveness issue. if you lose 1 DK, how much will that hurt? what about 1 purgation squad? what about (emperor forbid) that landraider? all of the other options rely on your units surving that weight of fire or counterassault. if you happen to lose a dread (missle launchers still need 5+ to pen and then another 5+ to pop him and even then you might be getting cover, if your playing them right. go buddy system! ), you still have 2 others quite able to take up the slack. your effectiveness drops by 33%, while losing one of the others is a 50%, 66%(i'd say more because i feel a land raider is much more than the sum of its parts) and 50% drop in effectiveness respectively. not trying to mathammer, just thinking logically here.

 

First of all, you're not using percentages correctly. Use statements, like 'I was planning on using that Raider to move my unit X around, now it's dead that sucks' or 'one of my Dreads is dead, now I have less 48" firepower, that also sucks'.

Secondly, I wasn't suggesting you drop the Dreads entirely (I think 2 is going to a staple of any good army anyway), or take multiple Dreadknights instead (that adds up way too fast), I was merely suggesting you not take 3, because it's boring and bland. Dreadknight is crazy and you can psych people out with it (and it actually kills stuff pretty reliably too).

 

and as brother ramses said, theres nothing boring about making those assault troops waddle down across the field

 

Well I think you're both a little too optimistic about how effective those 3 Dreads are (see above), and not every army is a Khorne Beserker/Ork Trukk list. Blowing up transports is good, but it's not like it unmakes your opponents army by itself. Marine armies are happy to cower in the wreckage with their Tactical squads, so are Guard largely (except for melta-Vets, but then they are carting around in Valks/Vendettas so different scenario).

[Gentlemanloser]

Or you could spend those 30 points on something good, like a heavy incinerator, or anything else. Srsly, gatling silencer is complete garbage. Ask Guard players how their Punisher Russes are working out lol.

 

Of course. <_<

 

I was just keeping the comparion to the Terminators it would replace as close as possible!

[Spartans]

Well tbh I am planning on taking 5, 3 normal and 2 venerable.

 

Tried it out with Crowe and 3 squads of Purifiers with Razorbacks and it worked very well.

 

Boring some migth say but I enjoyed it which is the main thing imo.

[Grimtooth]

Well I think you're both a little too optimistic about how effective those 3 Dreads are (see above), and not every army is a Khorne Beserker/Ork Trukk list. Blowing up transports is good, but it's not like it unmakes your opponents army by itself. Marine armies are happy to cower in the wreckage with their Tactical squads, so are Guard largely (except for melta-Vets, but then they are carting around in Valks/Vendettas so different scenario).

 

No, we are not being too optimistic. And frankly it doesn't matter if every army is not a Khorne/Ork list. The point of putting an opponents army on foot is that is keeps them in the GK ranged sweet spot LONGER. That is the point of why they are the best choice for popping transports. It forces an enemy to stay in the GK kill zone longer.

 

Tactical squads are outgunned by GK at their max range of 24" so sitting in their wreckage is not viable. Furthermore, the GK can close to that wreckage while delivering more fire while moving.

 

Anf of course Guard are going to be happy sitting in a gunline. A well built Guard list destroys GK because they outgun them by far. However, again your rifledreads are going to be the only ones to reach out and stun/shake some of those Guard heavy support choices while you are struggling to get to 24".

[KnowThyEnemy]

Id rather be optimistic then pessimistic :). and I see Ramses has ninja'd me, so I will contribute by saying transports is the key to A LOT of armies in the competative scene. The ability to control/contest objectives is contingent upon mobility. If you can't get there, you can't control/contest. If you knock out your opponents transports in Turns 1 and 2 (and 3), its going to be mighty hard for them to do any late-game grabbing. Your response will be: but he could have this unit, that unit, 7 of these, etc etc. My argument is simple: current armies rely on their transports to get the majority of their troops to and from objectives. remove the transports. itll take out a lot of mobility and give you more chances to eliminate some troops.

[Grimtooth]

Id rather be optimistic then pessimistic :). and I see Ramses has ninja'd me, so I will contribute by saying transports is the key to A LOT of armies in the competative scene. The ability to control/contest objectives is contingent upon mobility. If you can't get there, you can't control/contest. If you knock out your opponents transports in Turns 1 and 2 (and 3), its going to be mighty hard for them to do any late-game grabbing. Your response will be: but he could have this unit, that unit, 7 of these, etc etc. My argument is simple: current armies rely on their transports to get the majority of their troops to and from objectives. remove the transports. itll take out a lot of mobility and give you more chances to eliminate some troops.

 

Agreeing with you and going to add more.

 

Of course anyone can tailor a list to make a 3 psyrifle dread list useless. The point is that a 3 psyrifle dread list is pretty much an all-comers set-up, not list tailoring because of the reason you give. Transports are prevalent in almost all builds with the exception of Nids and Demons, but even then Soulgrinders wont like them either.