Age of Darkness - Rules of Engagment/Savage Weapons

[Captain Idaho]

No, it's only hypocritical if the same people who criticised the Lion are then defending Guilliman. Since I have never stated the Lion is a traitor, my liking Guilliman is not hypocritical.

 

But thanks for the insult all the same.

Really? ^_^

Its hilarious... and, I imagine in some cases, just a little bit hypocritical. ;)

If you, or anybody else, imagine that was directed at (or even applicable to) you, then that owes more to you than it does to what was written. Of course, in some instances it will be completely on the money.

 

Seriously dude, if I'd made a blanket remark saying that everyone who was dismissing the suggestion from the story of Guilliman being traitorous was being hypocritical, then I could understand you getting your back up, but since I didn't, I have to question why you've reacted in such a prickly manner.

 

Well I'm glad you weren't specifically directing the comments at me. You should go on to see the context of your post; it was immediately after my own where I stipulated I was liking Guilliman from what I had read of him and was generic enough for me to draw that conclusion logically.

 

Ok then, I got it wrong but it was fairly understandable don't you think?

 

Anyway, I do undertand your own position here. People have thrown their opinion of the Lion being a traitor around for a while and are now relishing the ambiguity in the Heresy novels right now as an opportunity to bad mouth him. Mirror of what happens to Guilliman (my own favourite) so I understand your consternation.

 

Neither of these stories put the Ultras in a good light. Over the years the question has always been, did lion El'johnson purposley take his time getting to Terra. I think that has been solved somewhat with Guilliam being the one not going to Terra and maybe being the reason for the DA's late arrival

 

Maybe but I am happy about it. No longer are non-Ultras fans seeing my favourite Chapter as bland and two dimension. And they are doing the right thing in their own eyes and could possibly be proved right. We have to wait and see what Guilliman's "plan" is.

[KJB]

They're clearly not traitors in the sense of the Sons of Horus etc, but they certainly aren't whiter than white, which prompted my earlier comment saying that this change in approach was beautiful and not a nod towards some random ultra hate...

 

It will result in said ''ultra hate''. Look at A D-B's scene in A First Heretic about the missing Legions. A D-B went out on record saying that it was meant to be two soldiers joking around yet most people took it as total fact. How do you think the greater fan community is going to react to this news?

 

I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count.

 

True enough, though what I meant was it wasn't ultra hate from me.

 

But to be fair, the story could have been about the ultra's racing across the galaxy to save the day and there would still be people on this board lining up to bitch about them, that's the curse of the ultramarines I suppose, they're like some strange phenomenon - no matter how great they are, some people just don't like them... :(

[Tyros]

Haven't got around to read the book yet but I have one question. Does this story tell if the Ultramarines play their wargames after Calith or has the Word Bearer not yet blast that rock into nothing? Becuse if this story is set after Calith I think it makes sense. The ultras took a beating while driving the beares of the word away and during that beating they came across things that was unknown to them. So after fighting and losing manpower would it really be that strange if Robute feel that he really have to develop new tactics against these "things" like the Gal Vorbak? And what happend after the Word Bearer fleet was driven away from Ultramar? Would it set course for Terra or would it splinter and countinue to attack the empire of Robute? So the wargames could be of duel pupose, learning to fight in a new way as well as being a garrison unit.

 

But as I said, my copy hasent arrived yet so all I say may be rubbish. Will get back to ye about that at the end of the weekend.

[MadDoc]

Well I'm glad you weren't specifically directing the comments at me. You should go on to see the context of your post; it was immediately after my own where I stipulated I was liking Guilliman from what I had read of him and was generic enough for me to draw that conclusion logically.

I neither quoted nor referenced you, and the post was very clearly not directed at everybody dismissing what RoE suggests about Guilliman. The fact that your post immediately preceded mine was nothing more than coincidence.

 

Ok then, I got it wrong but it was fairly understandable don't you think?

Honestly? No I don't see it as being the first, or most logical, conclusion.

 

But now that you've explained your reasons I can understand why you reacted the way you did. It still doesn't seem like the most logical conclusion to me.

 

No harm, no foul though.

[Texpef]

This is so annoying according to Amazon this isnt released till the 14th may ;)

[Aegnor]

Rules of Engagement is explicitly set AFTER Calth.

 

I very much agree with Captain Idaho's interpretation of Guilliman's intentions and motives.

[Ethrion]

Neither of these stories put the Ultras in a good light. Over the years the question has always been, did lion El'johnson purposley take his time getting to Terra. I think that has been solved somewhat with Guilliam being the one not going to Terra and maybe being the reason for the DA's late arrival

 

I didn't think any of the stories put the Ultramarines in a bad light either though. We have no real info to go on yet, just one short story and a line in another one. As A D-B has said, BL have a plan and have further fluff to come - it'll all get explained soon enough. I think it's a bit soon to be jumping to conclusions and saying that the Ultramarines were sitting around doing nothing and assuming that they chose not to go to Terra or fight Horus.

 

Up until now we all assumed the Dark Angels were just waiting but as we now know they were fighting a long running war against the Night Lords and had attempted to return to Terra many times but the warp wouldn't let them. I think it's fair to say the Ultramarines had good reasons why they didn't make it back - not just: we want to rule after the Emperor is dead.

 

And as for the reason behind the DA late arrival - it wasn't because Guilliman and the Ultramarines held them back. As we know it was because of their own war against the Night Lords as a result of the warp not letting them go back.

[Aegnor]

Remember - in Savage Weapons the Lion's comment regarding Guilliman's instruction and imagined motives are exactly that - the Lion's comment. His assessment of Guilliman's motives, in my opinion, says more about his inability to trust others than it does about what Guilliman actually meant.

[Dark Mechanicum]

I will state here in the opening the two things that are fact for me: I REALLY hate Dark Angels, and I REALLY hate Ultramarines.

 

For Rules of Engagement: I LOVED this story and not because of the were not fighting. Remember folks its only ONE COMPANY that is going through the engagements. Also note that they weren't really fighting as well, they were going through massive battle simulations based on EVERY chapter. Note the dark green with lizard head for one of those. This was Guilliman seeing if his book could work with a company that is known for its....randomness. I hate the ultramarines but I love how they were protrayed in this story.

 

For Savage Weapons:....I'm building a Sevatar now as a Chaos Lord...he is too awesome to not become a model in my army for no reason but other than awesomeness. On the Dark Angels, that was impressive on everything from the viewpoint of two commanders and the Haunter's remarks about his visions. My reasons for hating the Dark Angels just stem from the fact that I really just hate the Dark Angels and their perpensity for randomly disengaging if they get what they want from a conflict. It annoys me for some reason. irrational but annoying. This story and the one above lessened my hate just a bit.....but not enough to drape crucified Dark Angels all over my icons and banners and rhinos and anything else I could think of that could use a dark green power armor with white surcoat.

 

oh and more Sheng and Sevatar...I think they are just way too awesome to only have such fleeting mentions.

[Galadren]

The Codex Astartes is a flow chart.

[Ethrion]

The Codex Astartes is a flow chart.

 

No, it isn't.

 

It not only lays out how the Space Marine chapters should be structured but also has hundreds of pages devoted to any given tactical situation and how it coule be met and overcome. Certainly methods that have been used in the past and proved the most effective, as well as any and all less standard options as well. It is the collected wisdom of thousands of warriors. It most certainly is not: when faced with X do Y.

 

Anyway, that is somewhat off topic. @ Aegnor: I agree it does tell you a lot about the Lion's own state of mind and level of trust. But then again, every loyal primarch's trust was severely shaken. 'The Last Remembrancer' does a great job discussing this issue - how things will never be the same again and that no one will truly trust one another again.

[Legatus]

The Codex Astartes is a flow chart.

No, it isn't.

 

It not only lays out how the Space Marine chapters should be structured but also has hundreds of pages devoted to any given tactical situation and how it coule be met and overcome. Certainly methods that have been used in the past and proved the most effective, as well as any and all less standard options as well. It is the collected wisdom of thousands of warriors. It most certainly is not: when faced with X do Y.

Unfortunately, that is not how the Codex Astartes is described in "Rules of Engagement". In the one campaign, the Ultramarines Captain is doing everything according to the suggested options of the Codex Astartes, but the battle is not going well and he and his subordinates start to doubt that the Codex Doctrine will actually work this time. But they follow it anyway, and then, near the end of the battle everything seems to be falling into place, all the manouvers they had done previously and which seemed to do not much good were in preparation of an elaborate stratagem, and the Ultramarines are victorious.

Basically, the Codex Astartes presented solutions and a course of action for the Captain, without explaining what that course of action would ultimately lead to and what it was attempting to accomplish. The Captain was following it without knowing what it would amount to, and was starting to doubt the Codex, but in the end it payed off and he realized what the approach had been all about. The Codex is presented as a "magic formular" that has to be followed, it explains what your forces have to do, without you necessarily understanding what the instructions will lead to.

[Galadren]

The way it was described as is he started at a point and then followed the path in the Codex: "This is the situation. It meets this condition and not this condition. Follow to next step, meets condition A and not condition B. Follow the path to the next step, etc until you hit the point that exactly fits your situation and here are the available options to deal with this situation." All I could picture was following the path of a flow chart through a process of elimination until you hit the page that matched your situation exactly at which point there was a list of tactical options available for the commander to choose from.

[Generating Random Name...]

The Codex Astartes is a flow chart.

No, it isn't.

 

It not only lays out how the Space Marine chapters should be structured but also has hundreds of pages devoted to any given tactical situation and how it coule be met and overcome. Certainly methods that have been used in the past and proved the most effective, as well as any and all less standard options as well. It is the collected wisdom of thousands of warriors. It most certainly is not: when faced with X do Y.

Unfortunately, that is not how the Codex Astartes is described in "Rules of Engagement". In the one campaign, the Ultramarines Captain is doing everything according to the suggested options of the Codex Astartes, but the battle is not going well and he and his subordinates start to doubt that the Codex Doctrine will actually work this time. But they follow it anyway

I'm not so sure, I thought he followed blindly until about half way through the engagement, and then starts to give instructions at a rate faster than he could if they were from the codex (We are shown later that it takes him time to 'read' the Codex), and it all slots into place. Or was this just me?

[Ethrion]

The Codex Astartes is a flow chart.

No, it isn't.

 

It not only lays out how the Space Marine chapters should be structured but also has hundreds of pages devoted to any given tactical situation and how it coule be met and overcome. Certainly methods that have been used in the past and proved the most effective, as well as any and all less standard options as well. It is the collected wisdom of thousands of warriors. It most certainly is not: when faced with X do Y.

Unfortunately, that is not how the Codex Astartes is described in "Rules of Engagement". In the one campaign, the Ultramarines Captain is doing everything according to the suggested options of the Codex Astartes, but the battle is not going well and he and his subordinates start to doubt that the Codex Doctrine will actually work this time. But they follow it anyway, and then, near the end of the battle everything seems to be falling into place, all the manouvers they had done previously and which seemed to do not much good were in preparation of an elaborate stratagem, and the Ultramarines are victorious.

Basically, the Codex Astartes presented solutions and a course of action for the Captain, without explaining what that course of action would ultimately lead to and what it was attempting to accomplish. The Captain was following it without knowing what it would amount to, and was starting to doubt the Codex, but in the end it payed off and he realized what the approach had been all about. The Codex is presented as a "magic formular" that has to be followed, it explains what your forces have to do, without you necessarily understanding what the instructions will lead to.

 

Maybe that's how it was described in that one instance and maybe that's how the codex astartes was back at it's inception but it certainly isn't like that now. And also 'Rules of Engagement' might have portrayed the codex like that simply to push across the idea more 'obviously' that marines should always adapt. It might have just been hammered in too much making it seem like a cookie cutter flow chart in the story.

 

I wouldn't read too much into 'Rules of Engagement' to be honest - just take it as a story that showed Guilliman teaching his marines that they need to use the codex as a guideline and not a strict set of 1+1=2 rules.

[KnightCommander_Almaric]

The way it was described as is he started at a point and then followed the path in the Codex: "This is the situation. It meets this condition and not this condition. Follow to next step, meets condition A and not condition B. Follow the path to the next step, etc until you hit the point that exactly fits your situation and here are the available options to deal with this situation." All I could picture was following the path of a flow chart through a process of elimination until you hit the page that matched your situation exactly at which point there was a list of tactical options available for the commander to choose from.

 

 

/humour on

 

Addedum at the bottom of said page:

 

If in doubt, take off and call for exterminatus, its the only way to be sure, plus your not using the cyclonic torpedoes as paperweights..

 

 

:rolleyes: <_<

[Walter Payton]

The Codex Astartes is a flow chart.

No, it isn't.

 

It not only lays out how the Space Marine chapters should be structured but also has hundreds of pages devoted to any given tactical situation and how it coule be met and overcome. Certainly methods that have been used in the past and proved the most effective, as well as any and all less standard options as well. It is the collected wisdom of thousands of warriors. It most certainly is not: when faced with X do Y.

Unfortunately, that is not how the Codex Astartes is described in "Rules of Engagement". In the one campaign, the Ultramarines Captain is doing everything according to the suggested options of the Codex Astartes, but the battle is not going well and he and his subordinates start to doubt that the Codex Doctrine will actually work this time. But they follow it anyway, and then, near the end of the battle everything seems to be falling into place, all the manouvers they had done previously and which seemed to do not much good were in preparation of an elaborate stratagem, and the Ultramarines are victorious.

Basically, the Codex Astartes presented solutions and a course of action for the Captain, without explaining what that course of action would ultimately lead to and what it was attempting to accomplish. The Captain was following it without knowing what it would amount to, and was starting to doubt the Codex, but in the end it payed off and he realized what the approach had been all about. The Codex is presented as a "magic formular" that has to be followed, it explains what your forces have to do, without you necessarily understanding what the instructions will lead to.

 

Maybe that's how it was described in that one instance and maybe that's how the codex astartes was back at it's inception but it certainly isn't like that now. And also 'Rules of Engagement' might have portrayed the codex like that simply to push across the idea more 'obviously' that marines should always adapt. It might have just been hammered in too much making it seem like a cookie cutter flow chart in the story.

 

I wouldn't read too much into 'Rules of Engagement' to be honest - just take it as a story that showed Guilliman teaching his marines that they need to use the codex as a guideline and not a strict set of 1+1=2 rules.

 

I always imagined that the codex would have a kind of final rule: Break any of the rules in it if common sense tells you to do so.

 

"The Codex be more guidelines than actual rules."

[Legatus]

I allways imagined that any suggestion in the Codex was heavily based on the circumstances it dealt with. If the present circumstances were pretty much like that, then the suggestions in the Codex would be the most beneficial. But if the circumstances were different, then the approach may have to be changed.

[Walter Payton]

I allways imagined that any suggestion in the Codex was heavily based on the circumstances it dealt with. If the present circumstances were pretty much like that, then the suggestions in the Codex would be the most beneficial. But if the circumstances were different, then the approach may have to be changed.

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Everybody here makes me want to punch a wall. Very few of you actually understand how tactical and stragetic manuals work. If you think its a 1+1=2 rulebook you dont get it so stop posting about it.

[Simonius]

I've just finished reading Age of Darkness and so I thought I'd weigh in with my take on things.

 

Savage Weapons clearly states that the Dark Angels have attempted to get to Terra but the warp storms have prevented this. Whilst Rules of Engagement doesn't explicitly say the same for the Ultramarines, we could easily assume that it is the same for them - oh, oh, I just remembered; In Battle for the Abyss (which should not otherwise be referenced) doesn't the ship to ship battle disrupt/destroy one of the main warp routes for Terra to Ultramar - which won't help either?

 

Anyway - if Guilliman can't get to the Palace what should he do? Well ones of the things he's famous for - Planning!

 

So IMHO, Guilliman is planning for the defeat of the Emperor as he knows that he can't be there and after Isstvan V, the loyalists are likely to be outnumbered and lose. So what is his plan? Well, to resurrect the Imperium of his Father and defeat Horus and his forces. We see in other AoD stories that he has sent out diplomats and agitators to other worlds that he can reach to pursue the path of the loyal imperium for the future.

 

Meanwhile he works to complete his mighty tome and practice it's tenets with his forces because he realises that the future conflict will not be anything like the Great Crusade, as the opposition will also have space marines this time. The only way he can win for the Imperium for the second time (Imperium Secundus) is if his forces have the discipline and superior tactics to defeat other space marines time and time again.

 

The Codex contains tactics and formations garnered throughout the Crusade from all the other Primarchs (this is referenced somewhere) and presumably their own thoughts on solutions to problems as well, it's not just Guilliman's work - he just brings it altogether into a complete treatise. To ensure it works and makes sense - and mainly because he can't do anything better because of the warp situation he has his (already known for their discipline and tactical nous) marines practice time and again, playing the different forces through many engagements. The last one showes however that the codex is not infallable when a Primarch is present on one side and not the other.

 

The Lion's comment at the end of Savage Weapons is probably an ironic take on Guilliman revealing some or all of his plans to retake the galaxy.

[Ingo Pech]

I've just finished reading Age of Darkness and so I thought I'd weigh in with my take on things.

 

Savage Weapons clearly states that the Dark Angels have attempted to get to Terra but the warp storms have prevented this. Whilst Rules of Engagement doesn't explicitly say the same for the Ultramarines, we could easily assume that it is the same for them - oh, oh, I just remembered; In Battle for the Abyss (which should not otherwise be referenced) doesn't the ship to ship battle disrupt/destroy one of the main warp routes for Terra to Ultramar - which won't help either?

 

Anyway - if Guilliman can't get to the Palace what should he do? Well ones of the things he's famous for - Planning!

 

So IMHO, Guilliman is planning for the defeat of the Emperor as he knows that he can't be there and after Isstvan V, the loyalists are likely to be outnumbered and lose. So what is his plan? Well, to resurrect the Imperium of his Father and defeat Horus and his forces. We see in other AoD stories that he has sent out diplomats and agitators to other worlds that he can reach to pursue the path of the loyal imperium for the future.

 

Meanwhile he works to complete his mighty tome and practice it's tenets with his forces because he realises that the future conflict will not be anything like the Great Crusade, as the opposition will also have space marines this time. The only way he can win for the Imperium for the second time (Imperium Secundus) is if his forces have the discipline and superior tactics to defeat other space marines time and time again.

 

The Codex contains tactics and formations garnered throughout the Crusade from all the other Primarchs (this is referenced somewhere) and presumably their own thoughts on solutions to problems as well, it's not just Guilliman's work - he just brings it altogether into a complete treatise. To ensure it works and makes sense - and mainly because he can't do anything better because of the warp situation he has his (already known for their discipline and tactical nous) marines practice time and again, playing the different forces through many engagements. The last one showes however that the codex is not infallable when a Primarch is present on one side and not the other.

 

The Lion's comment at the end of Savage Weapons is probably an ironic take on Guilliman revealing some or all of his plans to retake the galaxy.

 

Exactly that, what I´ve thought while reading "Rules Of Engagement". I´m really not a big Guilliman- and Ultras-fan, but I love the way, McNeill has portrayed both of them. Guilliman is one of the greatest minds in history, one of the mightiest generals of all times and he´s utterly loyal to his father or at least the Imperium of Mankind. If he´s not able to save his father, so it´s his duty to save his race at least. And he knows that Horus needs supplies in his battle for Terra and that he (and perhaps the Lion) is able to stop these supplies and to block off the way for more troops.

 

Besides this, I think it´s interesting, that "Rules Of Engagement" and "The Last Remembrancer" are two pointers to the second war between brothers, when he fights Rogal Dorn after the Heresy. Because Guilliman is profoundly convinced that the Imperium Secundus needs new opinions and that they have to tread new paths if they want to survive... and Dorn is a keeper of the old ways, of the Imperium, how his father has built it. And hew wants to rebuild it the same way. And - what makes all of this more complicated: he is not as steadfast as afore. He has doubts about the Imperium and his own actions and the way, everything has changed and he struggles to find his place in the new Imperium...

 

I really anticipate the next books and especially the Ultramarines-novel about Calth. Perhaps I will become an Ultramarine-Fan after all, who knows? :)

 

I will adress a petition, that McNeill and/or John French (or James Swallow who has done an outstanding job with "Liar´s Due"!) should write an Iron Hands-Horus Heresy-Novel or at least one about Rogal Dorn and the Fists...

[MaulerUK]

I've just finished reading Age of Darkness and so I thought I'd weigh in with my take on things.

 

Savage Weapons clearly states that the Dark Angels have attempted to get to Terra but the warp storms have prevented this. Whilst Rules of Engagement doesn't explicitly say the same for the Ultramarines, we could easily assume that it is the same for them - oh, oh, I just remembered; In Battle for the Abyss (which should not otherwise be referenced) doesn't the ship to ship battle disrupt/destroy one of the main warp routes for Terra to Ultramar - which won't help either?

 

Anyway - if Guilliman can't get to the Palace what should he do? Well ones of the things he's famous for - Planning!

 

So IMHO, Guilliman is planning for the defeat of the Emperor as he knows that he can't be there and after Isstvan V, the loyalists are likely to be outnumbered and lose. So what is his plan? Well, to resurrect the Imperium of his Father and defeat Horus and his forces. We see in other AoD stories that he has sent out diplomats and agitators to other worlds that he can reach to pursue the path of the loyal imperium for the future.

 

Meanwhile he works to complete his mighty tome and practice it's tenets with his forces because he realises that the future conflict will not be anything like the Great Crusade, as the opposition will also have space marines this time. The only way he can win for the Imperium for the second time (Imperium Secundus) is if his forces have the discipline and superior tactics to defeat other space marines time and time again.

 

The Codex contains tactics and formations garnered throughout the Crusade from all the other Primarchs (this is referenced somewhere) and presumably their own thoughts on solutions to problems as well, it's not just Guilliman's work - he just brings it altogether into a complete treatise. To ensure it works and makes sense - and mainly because he can't do anything better because of the warp situation he has his (already known for their discipline and tactical nous) marines practice time and again, playing the different forces through many engagements. The last one showes however that the codex is not infallable when a Primarch is present on one side and not the other.

 

The Lion's comment at the end of Savage Weapons is probably an ironic take on Guilliman revealing some or all of his plans to retake the galaxy.

 

Exactly that, what I´ve thought while reading "Rules Of Engagement". I´m really not a big fan from Guilliman and the Ultras, but I love the way, McNeill has portrayed both of them. Guilliman is one of the greatest minds in history, one of the mightiest generals of all times and he´s utterly loyal to his father or at least the Imperium of Mankind. If he´s not able to save his father, so it´s his duty to save his race at least. And he knows that Horus needs supplies in his battle for Terra and that he (and perhaps the Lion) is able to stop these supplies and to block off the way for more troops.

 

Besides this, I think it´s interesting, that "Rules Of Engagement" and "The Last Remembrancer" are two pointers to the second war between brothers, when he fights Rogal Dorn after the Heresy. Because Guilliman is profoundly convinced that the Imperium Secundus needs new opinions and that they have to tread new paths if they want to survive... and Dorn is a keeper of the old ways, of the Imperium, how his father has built it. And hew wants to rebuild it the same way. And - what makes all of this more complicated: he is not as steadfast as afore. He has doubts about the Imperium and his own actions and the way, everything has changed and he struggles to find his place in the new Imperium...

 

I really anticipate the next books and especially the Ultramarines-novel about Calth. Perhaps I will become an Ultramarine-Fan after all, who knows? :)

 

I will adress a petition, that McNeill and/or John French (or James Swallow who has done an outstanding job with "Liar´s Due"!) should write an Iron Hands-Horus Heresy-Novel or at least one about Rogal Dorn and the Fists...

 

QFT - This is the most sensible post in this entire thread.

 

I for one think that Guilliman's intentions are pure. The storms that plagued the warp during the early Heresy would also disrupt astropathic communication. Given the situation at that time, all the loyal Primarchs know is that Horus Lupercal has turned and that there has been a massacre of Astartes in the Isstvan system involving the Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Salamanders, World Eaters, Iron Hands, Sons Of Horus, Iron Warriors, Raven Guard, Emperor's Children & the Death Guard.

As I don't have my AOD book with me at work I can't be certain, but I don't remember Guilliman or any Ultramarine mentioning any renegade Legion specifically bar the Sons Of Horus so by including the Salamanders in his mock-up of foes, Robute is just keeping his bases covered.

[Frater Uriah]

I just finished the book two days ago, and was very favorably impressed overall. Rules of Engagement was, to me, a slow starter, despite all the fighting, though I must admit that I enjoyed it immeasuably more once I figured out what was going on.

 

Having been stationed at the Joint Multinational Training Center in Germany for four years now, and spending three of them in the Opposing Force (OPFOR) Battalion there, it is quite refreshing to see, as a complete change of pace,

that the Ultramarines train against OPFOR, complete with enemy-appropriate armor

. Only sensible, as far as I see it, but the depiction of it is a very nice departure

from the rest of the real fighting

in the Horus Heresy novels. The Ultramarines are a very doctrine-based organization, and Rules of Engagement hammers this home.

Salamanders as the enemy?

I agree with MaulerUK: you just never know who you're going to end up fighting.

 

I don't think that the view of the Codex was necessarily overly-reverential; rather, it is the overall doctrine of battle as drawn up by the Primarch of their Legion, so that his sons may continue to fight according to his design even in his absence, rather a complete opposite to the independent, decentralized doctrine of the Alpha Legion, but serving a similar role. It would of course be given an appropriately high regard by the Ultramarines: the Codex is Guilliman's magnum opus, ensuring his tactical immortailty in an uncertain age. It is also the work of their primarch and thus only natural for them to show his masterwork the highest regard.

 

As far as the depiction of the Ultramarines putting them in a negative light in Rules of Engagement and Savage Weapons, I will disagree. Guilliman's and the Lion's Legions formed the largest remaining bastion of Adeptus Astartes Loyalists in the galaxy not at Terra, and were far enough removed from the main battle for them to enable the Imperium to survive, even if Terra and the Emperor were to fall. Sometimes survival is more important than fighting, inglorious as it may be, and they would be poised to strike back at the battered remains of Horus's forces in the aftermath of the Siege of Terra. Not a bad battle plan, if it came down to it.

[Walter Payton]

Everybody here makes me want to punch a wall. Very few of you actually understand how tactical and stragetic manuals work. If you think its a 1+1=2 rulebook you dont get it so stop posting about it.

 

I always envisioned it as being a 41st Millenium Art of War.

 

People here aren't discussing tactical and strategic manuals, merely the Codex Astartes, which has been portrayed at times as a very restrictive and petty tome. Of course, this fan-based idea that it is literally a guide for every conceivable situation is absurd:

 

Brother-Marine Gonzago: "Sergeant! We are pinned down behind a burnt-out tank by Eldar firing a shuriken catapult at us!"

 

Brother-Sergeant Lucianus: "Page 97, line 123, clause 5!"

 

Brother-Marine Gonzago (reciting): "'If pinned down behind a burnt-out tank by Eldar firing a shuriken catapult at you, throw smoke grenades and change position.' Of course! How could I forget?"

 

(Squad changes position, Eldar baffled by white clouds of smoke and, on account of being alien heathens, forget to engage thermal optics. Ultramarines recite further Codex passages and annihilate them.)

 

Brother-Sergeant Lucianus: "Praise be the Codex."