Age of Darkness - Rules of Engagment/Savage Weapons

[Brother Captain Gladius]

I like the ultras, always have, and to be honest, I like them even more after rules of engagement. The best heros have dark parts in their histories, it adds to their colour.

 

We know the ultras end up being the ultimate good guys, how they got there however doesnt have to be clean and nice, and its good to see some of the grubbier aspects coming through in the HH series. for them and the DA's. They are the good guys, but got there in different ways, but I dont see either loyalty being in doubt!

 

After all, we know that Roubutte sent anvoys across the galaxy trying to slow Horus down, hardly the actions of a man who wants his dad dead so he can take over. There is a reason he cant get there........we dont know what it is yet. We know the DA's cant get there, so it makes sense for them to join forces, so that when they can get there, they are best placed and unified so they can turn the tide, or pick up the peices if they are too late.

 

The wolves wernt at Terra, nobody is calling them traitors.............

[Walter Payton]

I like the ultras, always have, and to be honest, I like them even more after rules of engagement. The best heros have dark parts in their histories, it adds to their colour.

 

What dark parts? I haven't read it, but if their loyalty is never in doubt, then what's so dark?

[Brother Captain Gladius]

bitey much?

 

the parts that make you question them, the bits that seem no so clean cut. It adds colour to the legion.

 

Their loyalty never being in doubt is my opinion.

[Walter Payton]

bitey much?

 

Not really. Your post didn't make sense..

 

the parts that make you question them, the bits that seem no so clean cut. It adds colour to the legion.

 

They had plenty of colour anyway, but I'm glad to see a bit more added, especially some dubiety.

[Blackwyvern]

Maybe but I am happy about it. No longer are non-Ultras fans seeing my favourite Chapter as bland and two dimension. And they are doing the right thing in their own eyes and could possibly be proved right. We have to wait and see what Guilliman's "plan" is.

 

The thousand sons and Magnus did what was right in their eyes and they were trying to stop the whole war in the first place. look what happened to them.

[Walter Payton]

Maybe but I am happy about it. No longer are non-Ultras fans seeing my favourite Chapter as bland and two dimension. And they are doing the right thing in their own eyes and could possibly be proved right. We have to wait and see what Guilliman's "plan" is.

 

The thousand sons and Magnus did what was right in their eyes and they were trying to stop the whole war in the first place. look what happened to them.

 

Ah, but Magnus and the Thousand Sons weren't proved right; we know from hindsight that his decision to use sorcery was a very poor call indeed. The Ultramarines could possibly be proved right.

[Brother Captain Gladius]

Alecto, i also think they didnt really have a choice, we know the DA were trapped by the warp, and their ongoing war with the Night Lords, there is nothing to say that the ultras didnt suffer the same, warp storms and word bearers would be enough to delay anyone.

 

All you can do is wait it out, and make sure both legions are in the best shape possible for when they can re-enter the frey.

 

The way that the Ultras and Roboute themselves talk about what they are doing provdes a slightly shady viewpoint on the whole thing, and adds the colour to what I believe had become a bland legion within the fluff, plus the hint that Lion drops at the end. But ultimatly, I dont see what else they could have done.

 

Magnus thought he was doing right, but did it in complety the wrong way

Robutte seems to think he is doing wrong, but for the right reasons............if that makes sense.

[Texpef]

Well half way through the book and feel like slashing my wrists... i know the whole outcome is the emperor essentially gets it but whats with the stories being so depressing. Its like everywhere in the empire Horus is taking over and that plainly isnt all that is happening surely?...

[Walter Payton]

Alecto, i also think they didnt really have a choice, we know the DA were trapped by the warp, and their ongoing war with the Night Lords, there is nothing to say that the ultras didnt suffer the same, warp storms and word bearers would be enough to delay anyone.

 

We don't know that, though. Do these warp storms specifically prevent transit in and out of Ultramar?

 

All you can do is wait it out, and make sure both legions are in the best shape possible for when they can re-enter the frey.

 

The way that the Ultras and Roboute themselves talk about what they are doing provdes a slightly shady viewpoint on the whole thing, and adds the colour to what I believe had become a bland legion within the fluff, plus the hint that Lion drops at the end.

 

If Black Library did that and then had a completely rational explanation for it then it's a terribly odd decision; set up the Ultramarines as feeling uncomfortable then explain it away entirely.

 

Robutte seems to think he is doing wrong, but for the right reasons............if that makes sense.

 

Why though? He's a bright guy. He must know that he can't get out of Ultramar if there is warp storms, so he must realize he has done all he can. Why feel traitorous?

[Brother Captain Gladius]

warp storms are my guess, its not explained, there must have been a reason, either storms, repairing damage from calth or something else. We know warp storms are part of the reason the DA couldnt get back, so why not the ultras?

 

A warp storm prevents travel out of system, so marooned in system, so al they could do was prepare..........its just a guess, quite happy to be proved wrong.

 

Look, its just my interpretation of what the short story said, you mentioned you hadnt read it, so give it a go, and see what you come up with. The message I got was that they felt bad about staying and preparing, but that their hand was kinda forced.

[BrotherZaah]

Well half way through the book and feel like slashing my wrists... i know the whole outcome is the emperor essentially gets it but whats with the stories being so depressing. Its like everywhere in the empire Horus is taking over and that plainly isnt all that is happening surely?...

 

That's the entire point.

 

This the most catastrophic time in humanitys existance. This is the death of the Emperors dream, one world at a time, the loss of knowledge and a descent into the suspicion and superstition that has the Imperium in the stagnant form it is in the 41st Millenium. The Emperor exists purely to save humanity, not to rule, not to command but purely to guide humanity on the razor knife edge that it balances on between survival and extinction as has been stated numerous times in books and other fluff.

 

This has all been torn apart by Horus and his collaborators. The dream is over, already too much has been lost never to be recovered humanity stands divided and paralyzed by the unthinkable - all i can say is this is going to get worse before it gets better - Age of Darkness is only the beginning.

 

As for the question of the Ultramarines loyalty - Guilliman and the Ultramarines are so loyal that when wounded they bleed devotion. I say this not as a fan-boy but using reasoned facts gleaned from Rules of Engagement and what I previously said.

 

Guilliman understands what the Emperor is to humanity, not a ruler, but a leader, almost like a shepherd. Guilliman understands the Emperors view that the need sof the many outweight the needs of the few, so instead of headstrong actions pursuing "traitors" or blindly acting on impulse and emotion (its says as much in RoE that he doesnt act on emotion any more since he secured macragge) he focuses on what the Astartes and the primarchs were created to do. Protect humanity, not the Emperor, but humanity.

 

Guilliman knows that regardless of the result of the Civil war humanity will be falling from the aforementioned knife edge of survival. He knows that trust and reason is dead and that more than ever whatever is left of the Imperium (Imperium Secundis) will need structure, will need guidance - like a shepherd (see where im going with this?) Guilliman is a tactical, strategic and logistical genius, he know he's not the Emperor, he never will be and doesnt want to be - so he does what he can to ensure the survival of humanity - the Codex and a Shrewd marshalling of the Imperiums remaining power.

 

I think a lot of the issue regarding the Astartes Mandate and the Custodians Mandate is cleared up in tales of heresy where Valdor remind Dorn that astartes protect the imperium and custodians protect the Emperor but this is blurred by the fact the Dorn was asked personally to shore up the defences surrounding the Emperor. It needs to be remembered that this request is highly unusual as it means taking a strong, loyal legion off the line and turning them into sentries.

 

BZ

[Syagrius]

I don't think that having the Ultramarines aware of the Heresy but not heading straight to Terra is necessarily a big breach of previously-established canon, nor do I think it is portraying them as traitors.

 

Firstly, there is the issue of warp storms. We know from Savage Weapons that the Dark Angels are not able to reach Terra due to them. It is also mentioned in earlier HH novels -I can't remember exactly which one(s)- that Horus' 'allies in the warp' (as they're referred to somewhere) are deliberately hindering warp travel for loyalists while offering no such hinderance to the traitors. It stands to reason that this is still on going, which would seriously interfere with any Ultramarine attempt to reach Terra.

 

Secondly, I can't think off the top of my head what timeline had previously been established for the Heresy, if there had been one. The impression I have, though I could be wrong, is that the Heresy was originally over relatively quickly, hence various legions being unable to reach Terra/not being aware etc. If my vague feeling is right and the 7-year period is a new idea, then it would be strange for the Ultramarines to spend that time unaware of the Heresy until right near the end. Thus, Age of Darkness has to establish that the Ultramarines knew what was happening, but didn't head straight to Terra, even if this is a breach of previous canon. I personally think that they aren't so much portrayed as traitors or opportunists, but rather as pragmatists, preparing for whatever outcome the Heresy might have. Of course, portraying them as planning for the post-Heresy future rather than heading to Terra to protect the Emperor seems like treachery, but if I'm right with my first point and they couldn't get there, it makes sense to plan instead when action isn't an option. Similarly, in Savage Weapons the Lion comments on there being no point in saving Terra but letting the rest of the Imperium be destroyed, it's possible that's what the Ultramarines are doing and it just hasn't been mentioned yet.

 

As an aside, I really liked Age of Darkness, I found all of the stories both interesting and entertaining, as they show that slow transition between the forward-looking optimism (if you can call it that) of the Great Crusade with the grim darkness of M41.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Secondly, I can't think off the top of my head what timeline had previously been established for the Heresy, if there had been one. The impression I have, though I could be wrong, is that the Heresy was originally over relatively quickly, hence various legions being unable to reach Terra/not being aware etc. If my vague feeling is right and the 7-year period is a new idea, then it would be strange for the Ultramarines to spend that time unaware of the Heresy until right near the end. Thus, Age of Darkness has to establish that the Ultramarines knew what was happening, but didn't head straight to Terra, even if this is a breach of previous canon. I personally think that they aren't so much portrayed as traitors or opportunists, but rather as pragmatists, preparing for whatever outcome the Heresy might have. Of course, portraying them as planning for the post-Heresy future rather than heading to Terra to protect the Emperor seems like treachery, but if I'm right with my first point and they couldn't get there, it makes sense to plan instead when action isn't an option. Similarly, in Savage Weapons the Lion comments on there being no point in saving Terra but letting the rest of the Imperium be destroyed, it's possible that's what the Ultramarines are doing and it just hasn't been mentioned yet.

 

I think most of us thought the HH was a shorter then 7 year deal, I did. But that was a assumption based on ignorance. I doubt any could provide any cannon saying it was a short rebellion. We have only been given the short version of anything dealing with the HH. It makes since that the length of the whole ordeal is just one more bit that has been Illuminated.

[Chowda]

You people get your books too fast for me to keep up. :D Anyway, finished a few days ago and really got into every story.

 

One question: Did Rules of Engagement take place before, after, or encompass the actual battle at Calth? They referenced it, along with other battles that I don't think actually happened. I got the feeling Calth fit in as part of a scenario like the traitor Salamanders, but I could be wrong.

[Aegnor]

It was after Calth.

 

I think Guilliman and the Ultras felt traitorous because their actions were premised on an assessment, in my reading of the text, that the Emperor and loyalists on Terra would be defeated, and that there was nothing they could do to prevent it. This was probably due to warp storms, and RG's analysis of the forces etc.

 

This is the basis for RG's idea of Imperium Secundus. It is a pragmatic redrawing of how the Imperium will need to work based on the Emperor being dead. Such is RG's reverence for his father, and his sons reverence for Him, that even admitting that this is what they think will happen feels like base treachery. But being the realistic, logical, guys they are, who are loyal to the principles of the Emperor above all, they reconcile themselves to this being the hard truth and prepare accordingly. But they feel massively conflicted about it. It feels like a sin to be even making plans based on the assumption that the Emperor is going to be gone.

 

This is why, IMO, they are preparing to fight all and any of their brother legions, including ones like the Sallies who are at that stage still firmly loyalists. They are having to prepare for the possible outcomes of the other legions reactions to the death of the Emperor. If he were to die, and Horus not be defeated at that time, its really hard to say who will do what, from their point of view.

[Captain Idaho]

Of course, what everyone is missing is Guilliman never actually says he is resigned and preparing for the Emperor's death. It is assumption because we know this will occur. Also, it seems to have been forgotten what Guilliman said regarding Horus at the end of the story:

 

"Then let's hope when the time comes to put Horus down, I'm the man to do it."

 

That sentence alone tells you of his intentions and where his plans lead. He isn't ducking out at all.

[Aegnor]

I didn't say he was ducking out. McNeil states RG's viewpoint quite clearly in the narrative, via RG's internal monologue (top of pg 12):

"All that was required of them [his legion] was obedience, even when his orders made no sense and seemed as heretical as those that had set the galaxy ablaze.

 

In all the years of service to his gene-father, he had never faced so terrible a choice.

 

The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.

 

The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on.

 

His father would understand that, even if others would not.

 

Roboute Guilliman wrote two words at the top of the right-hand page: words of treachery, words of salvation, word to herald a new beginning.

 

Imperium Secundus."

 

He not's giving up on the core beliefs that make the Imperium the Imperium, but he is accepting that the Imperium as he knows it, which in this reading inevitably includes the life of the Emperor, is over, and is essentially cutting his loses so he can begin preparing to build a second Imperium out of the ashes of the first. And this is only what he is thinking at this point - there's a long way to go to the culmination of the Heresy and he may well be persuaded otherwise before the end.

 

That he expects that AFTER the first Imperium has in essence been destroyed, he will still have to face Horus and put him down doesn't reveal anything other than what I've already said - he expects Horus to win and survive the confrontation with the defenders of Terra and the core of the existing Imperium.

 

EDIT: I haven't spoilered that as it appears within the first two pages of the story.

[Valkyrion]

It was after Calth.

 

I think Guilliman and the Ultras felt traitorous because their actions were premised on an assessment, in my reading of the text, that the Emperor and loyalists on Terra would be defeated, and that there was nothing they could do to prevent it. This was probably due to warp storms, and RG's analysis of the forces etc.

 

This is the crux of the matter and summed up in a nutshell.

For space marines during the HH defeat was never an option or even a consideration. The odd engagement aside, the original legions never lost a war during the great crusade. It was just a case of how long will it go on, how to minimise casualties and so on, not actually planning for a defeat.

 

Based on the evidence available to the Ultramarines there was no way that Horus would lose. For the first time the Ultramarines had to plan for defeat and how to deal with that.

[Captain Idaho]

I didn't say he was ducking out. McNeil states RG's viewpoint quite clearly in the narrative, via RG's internal monologue (top of pg 12):

"All that was required of them [his legion] was obedience, even when his orders made no sense and seemed as heretical as those that had set the galaxy ablaze.

 

No you didn't say he was ducking out, twas raising the point since I believe it is an important element left out of consideration here (in this thread). It's a common allegation.

 

You did make the assumption he was planning for the Emperor's death though, which I believe is a little inaccurate. He was planning for rebuilding the Imperium and everything that entails. He knows the Imperium needs to function with all the disparate elements of humanity, regardless of the Emperor. To me this is a subtle but important distinction.

 

That he expects that AFTER the first Imperium has in essence been destroyed, he will still have to face Horus and put him down doesn't reveal anything other than what I've already said - he expects Horus to win and survive the confrontation with the defenders of Terra and the core of the existing Imperium.

 

No I don't believe that is the case. You are making an assumption. We don't yet know, except we know his intention is to take down Horus.

[Jim Shady]

Rules of Engagment is how Bob wanted the Codex to be BUT considering the amount of time that was passed since it was penned by him and the amount of knowledge that was lost, the UM have taken it to be that, 'This is what our Primarch wrote SO we should follow it to the letter!'. I think he penned it to let the new chapters some move to think on their feet but the time between him writing it and it being the thing for the chapters to abide by, the meaning has been changed into a sacred text that must not be changed or deviated from. It probably allowed those recently formed chapters from the Legions the chance to be something new yet keep something from when before they were split up.

 

Not read anything more from this thread so I might just be repeating whats been said and it makes sense to people!

[Iron Lord]

warp storms are my guess, its not explained, there must have been a reason, either storms, repairing damage from calth or something else. We know warp storms are part of the reason the DA couldnt get back, so why not the ultras?

 

A warp storm prevents travel out of system, so marooned in system, so al they could do was prepare..........its just a guess, quite happy to be proved wrong.

 

Look, its just my interpretation of what the short story said, you mentioned you hadnt read it, so give it a go, and see what you come up with. The message I got was that they felt bad about staying and preparing, but that their hand was kinda forced.

 

In other thread, discussing how Lorgar was able to get from Istvaan V to Calth, whereas the Dark Angels and Ultramarines seem to be limited when it comes to moving around:

 

Do Chaos move around more easily during the Heresy than loyalists do?

 

Yes. Very, very yes.

 

For reasons that will become clear in the near future, I suspect.

[Gree]

Rules of Engagment is how Bob wanted the Codex to be BUT considering the amount of time that was passed since it was penned by him and the amount of knowledge that was lost, the UM have taken it to be that, 'This is what our Primarch wrote SO we should follow it to the letter!'. I think he penned it to let the new chapters some move to think on their feet but the time between him writing it and it being the thing for the chapters to abide by, the meaning has been changed into a sacred text that must not be changed or deviated from. It probably allowed those recently formed chapters from the Legions the chance to be something new yet keep something from when before they were split up.

 

Not read anything more from this thread so I might just be repeating whats been said and it makes sense to people!

 

Then it is quote unfortunate that Guilliman forgot to print in big and bold letters at the start of the Codex that said Codex was a guide and not a step by step rulebook then?

 

But then again. McNeill’s view of the Codex is pretty daft in general. Might I direct you to this discussion?

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t=0&start=0

 

Legatus essentially hits all the nails on the head.