When to shoot bolt pistols?

[Brownstain]

Hi. I have a question regarding zerkers and their bolt pistols. I've recently put together a 1000 point zerker list (check it out on the chaos army list page, any reviews are most appreciated) and I was wondering if you all could give some pointers on how to use the zerker squads in the shooting phase. I am almost tempted to not shoot at all, as anything that could potentially keep the dudes out of CC leads to them dying in my opponents shooting phase, and zerkers lost in the shooting phase are 4 attacks lost in CC. I am guessing the only time it is good to shoot is when one is mere inches (under 3 or 4?) away from the squad it wishes to charge?

 

On a related note, I decided against all plasma pistols because of the logic applied above. However, I am all ears. Should I be incorrect I can change my tactics and add some plasma in. Thanks guys!

 

Regards,

BS

[Brother Nihm]

Never shoot at a small or reduced to small-sized Space Marine squad with Combat Tactics, prior to charging.

Plasma Pistol discussion: here

[Ethrion]

To be honest berzerkers are awesome enough in combat that there is very little need in shooting first. As you know you might kill enough to prevent a charge, in which case you are now stuck in the open. You might want to get locked in combat so that you cant be shot at and win the combat in your enemies turn instead. Or you might want the consolidation extra move after combat. So overall I would say mostly don't shoot first.

[Cheex]

Berzerker squads need to be careful in that if you wipe out an enemy squad on the charge then it leaves your squad open to enemy shooting in their turn. This means that you have to be pretty careful with how much damage you apply to a particular enemy unit: too much damage and you'll be left open; not enough damage and you might even lose the combat.

 

An 8-man berzerker squad with power fist/weapon (they're both almost the same, statistically) can expect to cause about 6-7 unsaved wounds to Marines on the charge. Chances are, the survivors will fall back and either get away or get caught by your sweeping advance. If this happens, then you have to hope that they pass all of their saves so you are safe from shooting. The odds of 3-4 Marines passing probably around 5-6 armour saves are pretty low.

 

Because of this, it's usually better to withhold shooting to try and minimise the odds of the enemy being wiped out on the charge. I usually only bother shooting if:

1. I need the enemy unit wiped out (eg, it is sitting on an objective or I need to consolidate to a specific position);
   
2. I am charging multiple enemy units with one of mine (where the extra few shots will help); or
   
3. I am charging an enemy that I know I won't be wiping out on the charge (eg Terminators, Nobs, etc).
   

 

There is also the reason you already mention - you don't want a cunning opponent removing casualties from the front rank, making it possible that you'll be out of range to charge. This is especially true when charging an enemy in cover.

 

Hope that helps.

[Ethrion]

Berzerker squads need to be careful in that if you wipe out an enemy squad on the charge then it leaves your squad open to enemy shooting in their turn. This means that you have to be pretty careful with how much damage you apply to a particular enemy unit: too much damage and you'll be left open; not enough damage and you might even lose the combat.

 

An 8-man berzerker squad with power fist/weapon (they're both almost the same, statistically) can expect to cause about 6-7 unsaved wounds to Marines on the charge. Chances are, the survivors will fall back and either get away or get caught by your sweeping advance. If this happens, then you have to hope that they pass all of their saves so you are safe from shooting. The odds of 3-4 Marines passing probably around 5-6 armour saves are pretty low.

 

Because of this, it's usually better to withhold shooting to try and minimise the odds of the enemy being wiped out on the charge. I usually only bother shooting if:

1. I need the enemy unit wiped out (eg, it is sitting on an objective or I need to consolidate to a specific position);
   
2. I am charging multiple enemy units with one of mine (where the extra few shots will help); or
   
3. I am charging an enemy that I know I won't be wiping out on the charge (eg Terminators, Nobs, etc).
   

 

There is also the reason you already mention - you don't want a cunning opponent removing casualties from the front rank, making it possible that you'll be out of range to charge. This is especially true when charging an enemy in cover.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Spot on. One other point to mention is also that berzerker squads shouldn't and don't need to be very large and probably best to keep them small so that it's not too much of a loss if one squad gets caught in the open and gunned down. Personally I have squads of 7 (but that's me keeping with the fluff and the sacred number). But from a practical point of view 7 models in the unit is a good amount.

[Gore-Child]

The number for khorne is 8...just pointing that out

[Ethrion]

The number for khorne is 8...just pointing that out

 

Whoops ur right...i misread my own notes...should be 7 berzerkers with one aspiring champion - making 8 ...silly me ^_^

[Gore-Child]

happens.

 

But imo....well what needs to be said has been said, only fire into squads that will need that bit extra...or i do if im like 2inchs from them just for fun

[techmarine Azuris]

kinda off-topic, the same reason why i would never see the point for like a flamer option on zerkers maybe melta cos you'd over kill your oponent even more in some situations.

my advice is hords of 25+ shoot, tough stuff shoot extra wound never hurts rest just charge, especially if its just 10inches and you're not sure if you're in.

[Cheex]

I don't know; a flamer option for 5pts (seems to be the standard nowadays) wouldn't be too bad, even if it did mean your model lost an attack. It'd be great for hordes or when your squad starts to take casualties.

 

Plus, it'd give "Kill, Maim, Burn" more sense :D

[Warham]

But can't Blood Angels have hand flamers or whatever that those small flamer things are called, I think I saw that in a recent White Dwarf. Shouldn't they give an extra attack?

[Cheex]

Yep, they're still pistols. They just have a weaker flame (lower strength and worse AP, IIRC).

 

Those and/or Infernus Pistols I would not say no to in a new Chaos codex.

[greatcrusade08]

if your worried about casualty placement affecting the charge aslong as your within 6" of the unit sergeant youll generally be ok.. no-one will want to lose that fist toting tac marine if they can help it...

even moreso with orks, that nob has two wounds and is very important, just make sure you can charge him and let the rest come off in shooting

[Cheex]

if your worried about casualty placement affecting the charge aslong as your within 6" of the unit sergeant youll generally be ok.. no-one will want to lose that fist toting tac marine if they can help it...

Oh, on the subject of Marines - if your opponent is playing Vanilla marines with Combat Tactics, then you should be even more careful with shooting before you charge. Combat Tactics allows a Marine squad to fail a morale test automatically which, when combined with ATSKNF, can be absolutely awesome: kill >=25% of the squad and they'll fall back out of charge range, regroup next turn (with the 3" move) and then move, shoot and assault as normal (thanks to the FAQ).

 

Another situation where working out the odds in your head may be able to help. 8 bolt pistols should kill 1-2 Marines on average, so unless you brought plasma pistols or are shooting at smaller squads then it shouldn't be too much of an issue - but then you have to hope you don't get lucky.

[Brother Nihm]

Oh, on the subject of Marines - if your opponent is playing Vanilla marines with Combat Tactics, then you should be even more careful with shooting before you charge. Combat Tactics allows a Marine squad to fail a morale test automatically which, when combined with ATSKNF, can be absolutely awesome: kill >=25% of the squad and they'll fall back out of charge range, regroup next turn (with the 3" move) and then move, shoot and assault as normal (thanks to the FAQ).

 

 

Never shoot at a small or reduced to small-sized Space Marine squad with Combat Tactics, prior to charging.

You gave the reasons. :P

[Cheex]

Ah yes, sorry Nihm I had completely forgotten that you said that already. But at least the addition is still constructive :P

[Brother Nihm]

Very much so. :lol:

[maddnes666]

Bolt pistols are for hittting people over the head with not shooting!

[tylermenz]

Considering a squad of 8 berzerkers, including an aspiring champ w/ power weapon.

 

Now before we can understand whether or not to shoot, the object is to wipe the squad on the next turn. If you kill the squad on the charge, you get shot, but at the same time if you don't kill the squad next turn you are stuck in combat for another turn and will probably also get shot up. The best possible thing is to kill the squad on your opponents turn.

 

On the charge you get 4 attacks/ berzerker, and 5 with the Aspiring Champ. That is 28 Attacks + 5 PW attacks. Needing 3's to hit, 3's to wound and a 3+ save, that means that you should hit with 18.667 hits + 3.33 PW hits. That means that you will wound with 12.44 wounds + 2.22 PW wounds. That means that 4.14 MEQs will die from regular attacks, and 2.22 will die from PW attacks for a total of 6.36 dead marines.

 

On average, the 4 marines that are left will most likely not kill any berserkers, but we will consider they kill one (not unlikely). In the next combat your berzerkers are going to get 18 Attacks + 3 PW Attacks. 9 Hits + 1.5 PW Hits. 4.5 Wounds + .75 power Weapon Wounds. This ends up being about 2.25 dead marines.

 

A round of shooting will give you 8 shots, 4 hits, and 1.33 hits.

 

Overall this leaves 8.61 dead marines in two combats. That means that if the squad numbers 8 or under, you probably should not shoot, But with many squads numbering 10 at full strength, you should definitely shoot, assuming that, like others have mentioned, killing 1-2 figures wont get you out of charge range. On average with 1 round of bolt pistol+charge, you wont kill 10 marines, and therefore you give yourself the best chance to wipe them in the next combat.