Are chaos dreadnoughts any good?

[Brother Nihm]

For competetive play, if you take a unit, you want it to perform a job or a task.

You usually don't want it for 'fun'. Not if you want to do well that is. :angry:

 

The usual role of walkers in SM forces is that of support/tarpit/horde deterrent, in order for them to support another unit, they have to be relatively close - making it even worse for your carefully laid plans if said Dread blows the unit it is supposed to assist, to smithereens.

 

Furthermore,

A lone AV 12 walker is Krak/Las/Lance bait and nothing more.

 

My 2 Kraks

[Master of fact]

i love chaos dreads, but if we get a new codex if we keep the insane rule let us put Marks on it! Thats a good trade off!

[chillin]

i love chaos dreads, but if we get a new codex if we keep the insane rule let us put Marks on it! Thats a good trade off!

 

What I would like to see happen to chaos dreads would be that only on a roll of 1 the dread goes crazy, then roll a second time to see if it's FF or bloodlust (or what ever it's called). I would be willing to but up with something that was out of my control 1/6th of the time, but no something that is out of my control 33% of the time, that's just too much.

[Brother Nihm]

Bring back the option of Mutated Hull and have Daemonic Possession remove the frenzy/rage rule.

Problem solved, Dreads would be viable units once more.

[mega_marines]

Bring back the option of Mutated Hull and have Daemonic Possession remove the frenzy/rage rule.

Problem solved, Dreads would be viable units once more.

 

 

Surely wouldn't hurt for us to have our own Venerable Dreadnoughts too. I mean, not all of 'em are crazy, and some may even be some of the greatest of warriors if they've had millenia to practice. :woot:

[Corruptedcz]

I always thought about why they can stuck demon into defiler but not into Dreadnaught ? If that little bugger could ignore shaken he would be better imo but I like him nonetheless.

[techsoldaten]

The idea that there's a 33% chance the Dreadnought will not do it's job is what is so harsh. I understand using rules to give models some flavor, but this is just punishing. Not sure of what other units in the game have this much potential to go wrong.

 

If I was the one in charge of modifying the rule, I would select one of the options:

 

1) Apply Frenzy Fire only to a roll of 1 on the dice. Reduce the potential for something horrible to happen to 16%, which is the equivalent of a daemon weapon.

 

2) Determine whether Frenzy Fire applies at the start of the game. Make players roll to find out if their Dread has gone batty. This would serve the fluff fairly well and be more in keeping with their tactical use.

 

3) Give people the option to buy their way out of it. Create a Demonic Possession upgrade that eliminates the potential for something to go wrong and maybe improves the armour value. This would be a good strategic move.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Bring back the option of Mutated Hull and have Daemonic Possession remove the frenzy/rage rule.

Problem solved, Dreads would be viable units once more.

 

Problem created, if they aren't careful. There is a reason so much of the 3.5 codex got removed: So much of it was farking ridiculous.

Also, I'd rather they not remove the frenzy rule.

For a force that is supposed filled with the damned warriors living in a hell whole under the rule of capricious gods, I would expect a bit of chaos in the chaos marines force. It also allows some difference in play style between the loyalist and chaos forces.

 

Chaos should not just be loyalist +, thank you very much.

[Hellios]

Bring back the option of Mutated Hull and have Daemonic Possession remove the frenzy/rage rule.

Problem solved, Dreads would be viable units once more.

 

Problem created, if they aren't careful. There is a reason so much of the 3.5 codex got removed: So much of it was farking ridiculous.

Also, I'd rather they not remove the frenzy rule.

For a force that is supposed filled with the damned warriors living in a hell whole under the rule of capricious gods, I would expect a bit of chaos in the chaos marines force. It also allows some difference in play style between the loyalist and chaos forces.

 

Chaos should not just be loyalist +, thank you very much.

 

Chaos is not random... random is not chaos... Orks are random... Chaos is chaotic. + the 3.5 dex wasn't that nuts... maybe a bit complicated but that was mainly due to lots of strange wargear restrictions.

[Lady_Canoness]

For running dreads, I use a list that looks like this at 1500:

 

Khârn

Greater Daemon

Dread (PC, DCCW, xtra armour)

Dread (twin HB, DCCW xtra armour)

Dread (2x DCCW xtra armour)

8 Berzerkers + Rhino

8 Khornate Marines + Rhino

8 Lesser Daemons

2 Oblits

1 Defiler

 

I've used it multiple times and it had never let me down. Every unit is a major threat, had immense damage potential, and - with all 3 dreads sticking together - fire frenzy is minimized while survivability and damage are maximized.

 

Give it a shot. I wouldn't trade in the dreads for anything!

[Ubermensch Commander]

Bring back the option of Mutated Hull and have Daemonic Possession remove the frenzy/rage rule.

Problem solved, Dreads would be viable units once more.

 

Problem created, if they aren't careful. There is a reason so much of the 3.5 codex got removed: So much of it was farking ridiculous.

Also, I'd rather they not remove the frenzy rule.

For a force that is supposed filled with the damned warriors living in a hell whole under the rule of capricious gods, I would expect a bit of chaos in the chaos marines force. It also allows some difference in play style between the loyalist and chaos forces.

 

Chaos should not just be loyalist +, thank you very much.

 

Chaos is not random... random is not chaos... Orks are random... Chaos is chaotic. + the 3.5 dex wasn't that nuts... maybe a bit complicated but that was mainly due to lots of strange wargear restrictions.

 

Free Sergent upgrades, Chaos Gifts that can make said Sergeants hit harder than a Independent Character HQ choice in other marine armies, Daemons that could land without error and get a free charge, gross modifications to the organizational chart including reducing restrictions on units that made them impossible to correctly price, the list just goes on and on and on.

Numerous instances (from my own experiences, I cannot speak for anyone else) of Chaos players inadvertently breaking the rules of their codex, running multiple Daemon weapons like a Kai Gun and Dreadaxe on a puffed up Lord/Daemon Boss seemed to be the most common.

 

This of course ignores the gross imbalance within the codex itself. Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children, before one of the numerous iterations of the FAQ, had a HUGE advantage with their restrictive sublists. The T-Sons and Nightlords, meanwhile, lagged a goodly bit behind. Khorne players literally did not have to think in some cases, as the models moved themselves in a fleeting frenzy of death and skimmer chasing.

 

The new book is far far better balanced, though some players seem stuck on the 2 DP, Oblits, Lash list. There are other options out there. Honest. They are quite competitive to boot.

 

Back to topic:

 

Chaotic then. The random chance should remain in the rules. There should be the risk Daemon weapons killing their wielders, Dreads running amok, Khârn killing his comrades, etc and so forth. Part of the package: Massive pain output for a risk to the user/nearby members.

[Brother Nihm]

Bring back the option of Mutated Hull and have Daemonic Possession remove the frenzy/rage rule.

Problem solved, Dreads would be viable units once more.

 

Problem created, if they aren't careful. There is a reason so much of the 3.5 codex got removed: So much of it was farking ridiculous.

Also, I'd rather they not remove the frenzy rule.

For a force that is supposed filled with the damned warriors living in a hell whole under the rule of capricious gods, I would expect a bit of chaos in the chaos marines force. It also allows some difference in play style between the loyalist and chaos forces.

 

Chaos should not just be loyalist +, thank you very much.

And they wouldn't be anything like the loyalists in my example.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Bring back the option of Mutated Hull and have Daemonic Possession remove the frenzy/rage rule.

Problem solved, Dreads would be viable units once more.

 

Chaos should not just be loyalist +, thank you very much.

And they wouldn't be anything like the loyalists in my example.

 

Except for it becomes a Loyalist Dreadnought (A Chaos Dread without Frenzy) with upgraded armor if I am reading your suggestions correctly. The Frenzy rules are one of the few differences between Loyalist and Chaos Dreads, if memory serves.

[Brother Ambroz]

Free Sergent upgrades, Chaos Gifts that can make said Sergeants hit harder than a Independent Character HQ choice in other marine armies, Daemons that could land without error and get a free charge, gross modifications to the organizational chart including reducing restrictions on units that made them impossible to correctly price, the list just goes on and on and on.

Numerous instances (from my own experiences, I cannot speak for anyone else) of Chaos players inadvertently breaking the rules of their codex, running multiple Daemon weapons like a Kai Gun and Dreadaxe on a puffed up Lord/Daemon Boss seemed to be the most common.

 

This of course ignores the gross imbalance within the codex itself. Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children, before one of the numerous iterations of the FAQ, had a HUGE advantage with their restrictive sublists. The T-Sons and Nightlords, meanwhile, lagged a goodly bit behind. Khorne players literally did not have to think in some cases, as the models moved themselves in a fleeting frenzy of death and skimmer chasing.

 

The new book is far far better balanced, though some players seem stuck on the 2 DP, Oblits, Lash list. There are other options out there. Honest. They are quite competitive to boot.

 

Back to topic:

 

Chaotic then. The random chance should remain in the rules. There should be the risk Daemon weapons killing their wielders, Dreads running amok, Khârn killing his comrades, etc and so forth. Part of the package: Massive pain output for a risk to the user/nearby members.

 

I played pure TS and only TS back in the 3.5 dex and you know what I had a hell of alot more fun with that than this codex. Yeah we might be able to make a decent list and it be semi-fun, but with the 3.5 dex we were actually the anti-christs that the 40k universe depicts us as. Now we're getting off topic here....

[Hellios]

Free Sergent upgrades, Chaos Gifts that can make said Sergeants hit harder than a Independent Character HQ choice in other marine armies, Daemons that could land without error and get a free charge, gross modifications to the organizational chart including reducing restrictions on units that made them impossible to correctly price, the list just goes on and on and on.

Numerous instances (from my own experiences, I cannot speak for anyone else) of Chaos players inadvertently breaking the rules of their codex, running multiple Daemon weapons like a Kai Gun and Dreadaxe on a puffed up Lord/Daemon Boss seemed to be the most common.

 

This of course ignores the gross imbalance within the codex itself. Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children, before one of the numerous iterations of the FAQ, had a HUGE advantage with their restrictive sublists. The T-Sons and Nightlords, meanwhile, lagged a goodly bit behind. Khorne players literally did not have to think in some cases, as the models moved themselves in a fleeting frenzy of death and skimmer chasing.

 

The new book isn't anymore more balanced... My thousand son list still lags behind... and compared to other codices yeah... some of the lists were pretty hard... but no more so than the current guard dex.

 

As for free sgts woop dee doop chaos had its pros and cons and yes chaos champions should cause other characters to fear and quake at night... and if you did that... your champions got pretty expensive... As for breaking the rules... if you get cheating numpties... woop dee doop... that is the fault of the numpties not the codex... jeez I didn't even play chaos in 3.5 and I understood all their rules... I'm sorry if you gamed with a load of people who have only just got beyong the ooze stage of evolution... but that isn't the dexs fault.

[Brother Nihm]

Bring back the option of Mutated Hull and have Daemonic Possession remove the frenzy/rage rule.

Problem solved, Dreads would be viable units once more.

 

Chaos should not just be loyalist +, thank you very much.

And they wouldn't be anything like the loyalists in my example.

 

Except for it becomes a Loyalist Dreadnought (A Chaos Dread without Frenzy) with upgraded armor if I am reading your suggestions correctly. The Frenzy rules are one of the few differences between Loyalist and Chaos Dreads, if memory serves.

It becomes a daemon possessed Dread (as in 3.5) but loses the Frenzy, with AV 13. I don't see loyalists daemon possessing their vehicles no?

[Ubermensch Commander]

Bring back the option of Mutated Hull and have Daemonic Possession remove the frenzy/rage rule.

Problem solved, Dreads would be viable units once more.

 

Chaos should not just be loyalist +, thank you very much.

And they wouldn't be anything like the loyalists in my example.

 

Except for it becomes a Loyalist Dreadnought (A Chaos Dread without Frenzy) with upgraded armor if I am reading your suggestions correctly. The Frenzy rules are one of the few differences between Loyalist and Chaos Dreads, if memory serves.

It becomes a daemon possessed Dread (as in 3.5) but loses the Frenzy, with AV 13. I don't see loyalists daemon possessing their vehicles no?

 

 

So it plays just like a loyalist Dread with AV13?

I don't see any Chaos there. I see Loyalist + (that is to say, a Dreadnought with better armor)

If you wanted that, I would recommend the Codex: Space Marines. The Ironclad, while quite the same as it lacks somewhat in the ranged options department, is about what you have created there.

I could also rationalize that various chapters have banners to the Emperors, Icons of Him on Earth, Icons of His Golden Throne, etc that grant different advantages to the squad. Or a Blessed Avatar, say with the stats of a Daemon Prince, using the Emperor's Golden voice to manipulate squads! I could then argue, I don't see the Emperor granting such boons to traitor.

But that would certainly be encroaching on Chaos play style in a blatant, if fluff rationalized, manner. Heck it might even be an amazingly converted army to run such a thing using the Chaos Space Marine codex. I do not want to see such things in the next Codex Space Marines, simply because it cuts out another differentiating factor for play style between C:SM and C:CSM. But that is getting wildly off topic.

I say again: Chaos Dreadnoughts are good. They simply must be planned around. Don't just throw them into a list, don't expect them to be loyalist dreads, and they can wreck house.

[Captain Tezdal]

Personally I love crazy dread, reminds me of playing orcs in WFB back as a wee lad, I love crazy and quirky rules.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

So it plays just like a loyalist Dread with AV13?

 

A Loyalist Dread with AV13 and BS3.

[Brother Nihm]

Bring back the option of Mutated Hull and have Daemonic Possession remove the frenzy/rage rule.

Problem solved, Dreads would be viable units once more.

 

Chaos should not just be loyalist +, thank you very much.

And they wouldn't be anything like the loyalists in my example.

 

Except for it becomes a Loyalist Dreadnought (A Chaos Dread without Frenzy) with upgraded armor if I am reading your suggestions correctly. The Frenzy rules are one of the few differences between Loyalist and Chaos Dreads, if memory serves.

It becomes a daemon possessed Dread (as in 3.5) but loses the Frenzy, with AV 13. I don't see loyalists daemon possessing their vehicles no?

 

 

So it plays just like a loyalist Dread with AV13?

Not at all, are you unfamiliar with how D.Possession worked in 3.5?

You misunderstand me if you think I want something the loyalists have, I merely want the option to get rid of frenzy and increase the usefulness of my Dreadnoughts, because right now, they are nigh on useless in a tournament setting (where I play the most at the moment).

 

I could also rationalize that various chapters have banners to the Emperors, Icons of Him on Earth, Icons of His Golden Throne, etc that grant different advantages to the squad. Or a Blessed Avatar, say with the stats of a Daemon Prince, using the Emperor's Golden voice to manipulate squads! I could then argue, I don't see the Emperor granting such boons to traitor.

But that would certainly be encroaching on Chaos play style in a blatant, if fluff rationalized, manner.

Except that our icons aren't rationalized in fluff, it is a recent addition (4.5 ed.) that makes little sense in that the bonus is lost if the bearer dies.

 

I say again: Chaos Dreadnoughts are good. They simply must be planned around. Don't just throw them into a list, don't expect them to be loyalist dreads, and they can wreck house.

That is your opinion, mine is that they are crap on a stick, but fun to use and look great (Forgeworld).

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[the jeske]

Free Sergent upgrades

if you played a legion force and took a unit of proper size.

, Chaos Gifts that can make said Sergeants hit harder than a Independent Character HQ choice in other marine armies,

and they had a cost like the HQs too . The upgrades werent free and there were points limitations too.

Daemons that could land without error and get a free charge,

you do know they still can? but they are just uter crap now , so no one uses them .

 

gross modifications to the organizational chart including reducing restrictions on units that made them impossible to correctly price, the list just goes on and on and on.

yeah of course because demob bombs or IW were sooo broken they dominatated casual and tournament play for years... oh wait they didnt . all the top dexs were balanced . And your not going to tell me that 1ksons thrall sorc , AL cultists or NL playing with more bikes or raptors[which were bad back then] was too OP.

 

Also If 3.5 was too OP and had to many modifications how about the last 3 sm dex ? or the options and modifications IG got ?

 

Numerous instances (from my own experiences, I cannot speak for anyone else) of Chaos players inadvertently breaking the rules of their codex,

aha so you dont know the rules for other armies , other people cheat you [because you let it , you dont learn what the game is about] and then you whine that those dex were too OP ?

running multiple Daemon weapons like a Kai Gun and Dreadaxe on a puffed up Lord/Daemon Boss seemed to be the most common.

But you did know how to read back when 3.5 was legal ? you did read every new dex , like every gamer should right ?

And if you didnt and you still dont , how do you check the legality of set ups of sm units now , specialy the SW have tons of options and even can play with 4 hqs . Dont blame a dex it was bad , because you couldnt play the game back then.

 

 

Don't just throw them into a list, don't expect them to be loyalist dreads, and they can wreck house.

show such a list . I would realy like to see a dread runing list that wouldnt get better by runing defilers or 2x3 termicid instead of the dreads . I seen post like this since the codex came out and oddly no one posted a list like that.

 

 

Dreads are bad , even if they dont shot at our dudes , they dont do what they are suppose to do ? why buy a 100+pts unit that is hvy support when there is a 30% chance it wont be shoting what I want [that is without my opponent killing it] , when an oblit shots always what I want and costs less and a unit of 3 termis has a better chance to kill what it is pointed at.

HtH version ? what does it suppose to do ? I cant support assault units. goes crazy , can run where I dont want it too ,is slower then rhinos so now I have to not only check the postioning of my opponent units but my dreads too . and when they finaly get in to hth ..... too few attacks to break units alone , cant deal with MC , cant deal with horde [like a BA claw dread].

 

So we keep him behind with a camper unit[something we offten dont run in chaos armies] . we still have to check LoS , still have to keep pray that when the time come to intercept that fast moving outflanker/drop pod unit/etc it wont go crazy .But most of all , that it just doesnt die like a slagg , because in the age of mecha and rifle man everywhere people tend to be able to counter dreads . At least the ones with good lists.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

would a single dread with either plasma cannon and missile launcher, DCCW and Plasma cannon or DCCW and Twin linked autocannon be any good (thousand sons 4++ helps offsets fire frenzy) and my 2 preds and 3 rhinos hopefully put the preesure on the enemies target priority.)

[chillin]

Like most things in chaos dex, a single one isn't very good (not that more then one is very good). If you are going to use dreads , use more then one. ML's are pretty useless IMO, take TL'ed AC or PC or dual DCCW's.

[chillin]

I say again: Chaos Dreadnoughts are good. They simply must be planned around.

 

Saying they are good, then saying that you must plan around them, doesn't make any sense.

[daboarder]

I say again: Chaos Dreadnoughts are good. They simply must be planned around.

 

Saying they are good, then saying that you must plan around them, doesn't make any sense.

 

 

Ummm...why? I'm pretty sure any unit ever taken needs to be planned around otherwise you end up with the type of completely mis-jointed list run by the WD team.