Are chaos dreadnoughts any good?

[chillin]

:) I agree that the every list and battle plan I've ever seen in the WD sux.

I disargee that any other unit needs to be planned around. I know of no other unit in the chaos dex or any other dex that I am pretty familar with (s/m, s/w, nids, d/e) that has a unit that has to be planned around, that players still use. There is a HUGE difference between having a plan/mission for each unit in your army and having a unit that you have to plan your set-up/battle plan around b/c you have no control of it 33% of the time and it can shoot your own units.

Is there another unit in the game that is out of owners control 33% of the time and might shoot friendly units ?

Is there any other unit in game that is out of owners control 33% of time and might shoot friendly units that is considered "good" ?

Please answer my 2 Q's in your retort so we can see what your rational for your arguement is.

[daboarder]

Oh they're not great, I love me though. And insanity definitely needs a rework. How ever as I said before the statement that a unit is bad if you need to use forethought in its deployment movement and action is dead wrong. Heres an example from one of the "top" codeci, Death company. You need to be very careful about where you place them and how you move them if you want them to be effective but they are far from a "bad" unit. or for a more subtle example how about THSS terminators, you need to plan around those if you DS then you need to move your army to support them accordingly or if you take a LR then you are spending a large amount of points and have to use the rest of your army accordingly.

[Corruptedcz]

Iam playing shooty Dreadnaught and for me he is out of control only 1/6 because I love rolling 1´s. If you play him clever than he is shooting only on enemy and twice. Iam playing him over a year and he never dissapoint me.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Alright this is the last I am going to mention on this as it has already gotten wildly off topic. To avoid wall o text, no quotations

 

@Jeske-point by point

Free Sergent upgrades-If by unit of proper sizes you mean 6,7,8, or 9 at a minimum. Hardly restrictive. Heck, you could even go bigger as long as it was a multiple of those. and it was a FREE upgrade which then allowed access to some scary upgrades. So roughly a 15 points free for each unit. Having to have a unit does not mitigate it. Even current codices to not allow that, the closest thing being "Your unit must be X sized to purchase Y upgrade" ala Tactical squads for second weapons or "For every X models in this unit may have shiny new upgrade" such as with Reaver Jetbike's blasters or Wyches and Wych weapons. They still cost points and promote players going for bigger units. Not comparable.

 

Sergent upgrades-Their costs were not that level of HQ's, especially when considering they had a points break to get there, and more to the point they hid in a big ol' blob of guys, essentially creating a multi wound monstrosity. Pardon me if I do not want to see that make a comeback.

 

Sumoned Daemons-Actually Jeske, if you look up comments on this very board you can find people that do, in fact, use Daemons.

 

Tournaments and lists-I suppose you and I just have very different experiences then, because that Daemonbomb and IW lists scenario is exactly what I saw. I do so wish Grandmaster Raziel were on this board. He had some pretty nifty links to exactly that info over on Warseer some time ago.

And I am not saying that all lists in the 3.5 codex dominate, I actually made that same point earlier. The old 3.5 codex had inferior balance, both internally and between other codices. However, despite being inferior to the 4 top lists of the 3.5 book: Khorne, Daemonbomb of pretty much any stripe, IW Boom list, and certain Emperor's Children shenanigans, they still held their own well enough. These lists were not unbeatable. They did however have a substantial advantage in power curve, and most it not due to any sort of tactical master, Daemonbomb

 

Org Chart modifications-There are several differences between the 3.5 codex org chart changes and the current space marine ones. The current ones are designed to work when compared with one another. The older dex had sublists that did not take changes into account as well. The most egregious example was the Obliterators. One has a 0-1 unit that can have that restriction removed in one list rather arbitrarily. So one has a choice: either make it overcosted for the effectiveness of one unit, or price it as a 0-1 unit and have it be underpriced when spammed.

 

Instances of Chaos Players forgetting or just plain getting the rules wrong- Jeske, moderate your tone sir. You are being rude, abbrasive and you misread my post. Obviously, we caught the mistakes, but it was a recurring problem. 3 separate Chaos players I played against, not counting the occasionally commentary online, messed up. 2 in person and 1 online mentioned the one-per-army Daemon weapon combination. As for having to watch people for cheating like a hawk, that is just asinine. It is a game of little plastic men. It takes someone with a very very tiny manhood to treat this game like life or death. I am hardly at fault if someone wants to cheat. I will certainly try and catch them, I disagree that it is my job to memorize all codices to make sure they don't cheat me. That being said, I would probably arrange physical violence and/or a lecture upon someone with the attitude you mentioned if they tried to play off that they cheated with "you should have caught me" nonsense. But that is a civility issue rather removed from the game itself.

 

Showing such a list-As i posted before, meander on over to DakkaDakka. There are lists over there using Drednoughts.

 

@Chillin- Most units have to be planned around, very few are no brainers. Any loyalist Dread has to be planned around as they share the same weaknesses as the Chaos Dread. Try running an Ironclad wily nilly...all the wasted potential is kinda disheartening. XD Sternguard, Death Company, and even Terminators have to be planned around. (Oh I see daboarder already mentioned some of those units. Thanks!) Just throw something that expensive into a list without support and watch it die....or so it seems to me. And why do some players also focus on the "might shoot my own guys"? What about "can move like a mother hubbard and gets assault bonuses or can double tap enemies?" There are pros as well as cons. Yes, it is a bit unpredictable, but hardly insurmountable or even necessarily bad.

 

@Nihm

I propose there is more fluff evidence for Imperial Icon benefits than a sane Chaos Dread. Black Templars with vows and items, 4th edition Space Marines with (an albeit atrocious rule) the holy 6+/5+ invulnerable save for their faith but got no cover save, banners adding all kinds of bonuses, Sisters of Battle prayers/miracles, Living Saints, and holy relics, and similar instances with the Grey Knights codex. That faith in the Emperor grants boons and that faith has power could easily be used to roll with a loyalist "Crusader" force using the C:SM Codex.

As for no Chaos fluff justification, I disagree. There are a fair amount of stories that have instances of some unholy artifact or other that must destroyed to weaken Chaos, usually followed by a "Next Time, Gadget! Next Time!" speech. In addition, it is fairly well established that the Chaos Gods are somewhat fickle with their gifts. Lose the icon/banner, lose the gift. Makes sense. Though I will admit, that seems to be more of a gameplay design choice, I simply see the fluff justification behind it as well.

As for the Dreads that are crap on a stick *shrug* guess we will just have to agree to disagree.