Predator configuration.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Greetings brethren,

 

On The Eternal Crusader, I have been speculating over the usage of the twin linked Las cannon, Heavy bolter sponsons Predator.

 

We don't get super cheap AutoBolter [Dakka] Preds, so that is not really on the cards. We get cheap 3las Preds, but that is quite mono-usage. So for good value and a little more flexibility, we often use the AutoLas Pred.

 

But I'd like to hear thoughts from those who have used the LasBolter Pred, what you thought of it, who it was against and so forth.

 

The floor is yours. :tu:

[rat of vengence]

I used it extensively, but now instead run a rifleman dread and an autocannon/las spnson predator. I like the twin-linked turret weapon, and I liked being able to hose down infantry, but it really didn't excell at either, and I usually found I wanted to do both.

 

RoV

 

Edit; I am also considering two preds, one auto/las and one all dakka.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I used it extensively, but now instead run a rifleman dread and an autocannon/las spnson predator. I like the twin-linked turret weapon, and I liked being able to hose down infantry, but it really didn't excell at either, and I usually found I wanted to do both.

 

RoV

 

Edit; I am also considering two preds, one auto/las and one all dakka.

 

So did you drop the Lasbolter once the Rifleman came out [ie, when the 5th ed. dex came]?

[Captain Idaho]

I used to love using a Twin linked Lascannon/Heavy Bolter Sponson Predator as it gave me great utility and was mobile enough to move and fire at any target I wanted. That was 4th edition and now the Predator can only fire a single weapon when it moves, thus losing potential against infantry. It now become less reliable to be able to support other vehicles like Transports (as a mobile source of cover) and because of an abundance cover and lack of mobility it struggles to achieve much success against infantry.

 

It loses out to the Combi-Predator and other superior anti-infantry weapons in the Codex, unfortunately.

[cernunnos]

Personally I use the TLLC as a turret, either for the tri-las anti-tank variety or the more generalist las/HB option. I do concede this option is overpriced but they are better at their job and more flexible in the case of the las/HB variety. I think there is a trade off, on the one hand the cost of the TLLC can be a waste for often a moderate improvement on the autocannon. However, if the autocannon variety fails where the TLLC wouldn't (not that you would ever know) then you have wasted the whole tank. It probably depends on the environment in which you play. In an ultra competitive environment, where every point matters and you need to cram in as much for your points as possible, its hard to look past autocannon. However, in a more relaxed environment I prefer taking the best equipped for the job at hand regardless of the points. Hopefully future codices will address this issue and make it a harder choice to make in competitive lists.

[Brightguy]

I'm w/ Idaho on this. Great vehicle in 4th, not that useful in 5th. Dropping defensive weapons from S5 to S4 means you can no longer move and fire the HBs effectively which was the big sell of this thing for me. In my opinion this key change should have been reflected in the point value but was not.

[DarkGuard]

The other thing that has made this variant less viable since the change from 4th to 5th Ed is the vehicle damage table. In 4th Ed you could still blow a tank up with a glancing hit, in 5th you can only do this if the vehicle is open topped or you have AP1. This resulted in the lascannon's impact on heavier vehicles such as those sporting AV13-14 being lessened, relegating it to an anti-transport weapon. However, with cheaper sources or in the Preds case, cheaper weapons with higher rate of fire (like the autocannon), the lascannon is no longer that great. Why roll once on the vehicle damage table when you could roll twice?

 

Heavy armour is now dealt with via melta, light armour via autocannons and missile launchers. This has unfortunately left lascannons in a state of limbo between the two, and they are no longer that much of a points effective option, especially on Preds when the price of a TL-LC is extortionate. This results in the dakka pred and the combi-pred being preferred, with the dakka pred being able to fill in the anti-tank role of the LC/HB Pred nicely as the lascannon is now better of targetting light armour, which the autocannon takes out nicely.

[Captain Idaho]

I dispute that actually. Lascannons are great for destroying AV12+ at range, simply because we have no other options really. Lascannons are awesome in numbers in a list, and the ability to have a Dreadnought with Lacannon, couple Lascannons in Tactical squads and the odd Razorback is supplemented by Predators with Lascannons. You can essentially get 5+ Lascannons into a list which gives you an edge if you want to pop that Psyfileman Dread hanging at the back causing a headache.

 

So I would say the reason the Predator with Lascannon/Heavy bolters doesn't work is the defensive weapon rules. Its just lost its utility.

[minigun762]

I dispute that actually. Lascannons are great for destroying AV12+ at range, simply because we have no other options really.

 

I don't think Lascannons are the only option. Against AV12/13, a Missile Launcher is almost as good and very often cheaper/easier to spam. Sure its next to useless against AV14 but thats why you have Melta and Power Fists. Its not that Lascannons are bad, they're just poorly priced in comparison to other options. Knock off 5-10 points per Lascannon in the various FOC slots and I think it would be much more competitive.

[Captain Idaho]

Missile launchers frankly. You need to roll a fist full of dice to get the benefits of them. They need a 4+ just to penetrate AV11 which is incredibly weak.

 

Lascannons are actually cheaply put into the list provided you don't use Landraiders, Devastators, Razorbacks or Predator Turrets to do so. Tactical squads pay a very cheap price for them, whilst Dreadnoughts only pay a little bit extra, and combi-Predators are awesomely priced.

 

It's all in style of the player and how they build a list.

[DarkGuard]

Missile launchers frankly. You need to roll a fist full of dice to get the benefits of them. They need a 4+ just to penetrate AV11 which is incredibly weak.

 

Lascannons are actually cheaply put into the list provided you don't use Landraiders, Devastators, Razorbacks or Predator Turrets to do so. Tactical squads pay a very cheap price for them, whilst Dreadnoughts only pay a little bit extra, and combi-Predators are awesomely priced.

 

It's all in style of the player and how they build a list.

 

I think this is very, very true. My three units with long-range anti-tank are two Rifleman Dreads and a unit of two Typhoons. So obviously there, that's a fistful of dice to bring down tanks. I'm pretty much of the viewpoint that you need lots of dice to take a tank down, and don't rely on single shot lascannons and meltas. While meltas are easy and cheap to amass in one unit (think Command squads or Sternguard), lascannons aren't due to the price.

 

That being said, I have nothing against the lascannon, and I every now and again I will run one, whether it's the sole lascannon in a missile Dev squad for the added punch, or a las/plas Razorback for backfield objective sitting.

 

O, and lets not forget that lascannons don't have the word MISS in them :rolleyes:.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

In my current 1500 pt Templar list I have

 

Two Mg PF squads

MM HF Speeders

Typhoons

AutoLas Preds

One LC Flamer squad

LasBack

MM Flamer squad

 

Templars pay 110 For a Dakka Pred [so not good value, imo]

125 for AutoLas Pred

130 for LasBolter Pred

 

If I took the LasBolter, I'd have some long range AI shooting, and not be so dependent on the Typhoons to Frag infantry. If I swap out a MM HF Speeder [plus something else] for another pair of Typhoons, I start losing valuable mobile MM.

 

I guess that is what I like about 1500 pt games - you can't have it all. But boy, is it annoying sometimes :D

[rat of vengence]

So did you drop the Lasbolter once the Rifleman came out [ie, when the 5th ed. dex came]?

Well, it is pretty much as Capt Idaho said. It just stopped being so darned practical when it is forced to be a bunker.

 

RoV

[KhorneHunter57x]

I use two of them with Storm Bolters in my Marine list (alongside two Land Raiders and two Lascannon/Plasma Gun Razorbacks), and I have found that they offer duality that isn't really offered by any of the other Predator configurations.

 

Part of why I like it could be that I view it primarily as a mobile Lascannon platform, and the anti-infantry capability is secondary. The main purpose for them is to drive alongside my Land Raiders, putting accurate beams of light into enemy vehicles. If I happen to get some juicy infantry targets for the sponson and pintle guns, then that is just a bonus.

 

They are also there to help deter enemy units from closing with my Land Raiders.

[Mysticaria]

I use two of them with Storm Bolters in my Marine list (alongside two Land Raiders and two Lascannon/Plasma Gun Razorbacks), and I have found that they offer duality that isn't really offered by any of the other Predator configurations.

 

Part of why I like it could be that I view it primarily as a mobile Lascannon platform, and the anti-infantry capability is secondary. The main purpose for them is to drive alongside my Land Raiders, putting accurate beams of light into enemy vehicles. If I happen to get some juicy infantry targets for the sponson and pintle guns, then that is just a bonus.

 

They are also there to help deter enemy units from closing with my Land Raiders.

That's an interesting use, but you are paying 70 points for something you aren't using most of the time. That's a MM/HF speeder right there... seems like a lot to give up.

 

Flexibility and efficiency often compete and I think this platform is one example. Those who really like to have fleibility don't mind paying extra, but those that like efficiency are shying away from this option in favor of the dakkapred or combipred.

 

-Myst

[KhorneHunter57x]

Well, I tend to end up using the anti-infantry capability from about turn 3-4 on. I used to use a pair of naked Annihilators, but I added the extra guns so that they would still have usefulness in the army after enemy vehicles were dead.

 

So, what could be viewed as "70 points that could be better used and you don't lose the primary purpose of the units," I view as "70 points that maintain the usefulness of my 210 point investment after its primary task has been completed."

 

I favor flexibility, and I am willing to pay the points to have it. The Dakka Annihiliator provides this.

[DarkGuard]

The main question I have to ask in relation to this config, is that surely the dakka pred will do the same job for less. Yes the dakka pred is best as anti-infantry, but when it comes to shooting light vehicles, which is really what the lascannon is now best at, the autocannon still does a good job thanks to rate of fire. If shooting at vehicles you don't have to remain stationary as your heavy bolters aren't that good at anti-vehicle, and once they're blown up you'll probably be in a good position to remain stationary and shoot at infantry.

 

So does the TL-LC really have a significant increase in effectiveness against vehicles over the autocannon, especially when we take into account points spent?

[Captain Idaho]

I think KhorneHunter57x has brought up a very interesting situation where this particular configuration shines. He's using them in a list which has saturated the weapon load out choice in multiple vehicles, 4 of which are heavily armoured. Essentially, each one gives similar performance, with the Predators being slightly better at killing infantry while the Landraiders are slightly better at anti-tank duties. In a game he can rely on any one of the 4 main vehicles in the army to do the same thing against any particular target.

 

This is a circumstance the expensive cost of utility actually becomes effective. On it's own, a single Predator with Heavy Bolters might be a tad expensive for it's loss of mobility in this edition, yet when you have 3 or 4 such vehicles in an army you increase the target saturation for opponents and can multiply your effectiveness.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The main question I have to ask in relation to this config, is that surely the dakka pred will do the same job for less. Yes the dakka pred is best as anti-infantry, but when it comes to shooting light vehicles, which is really what the lascannon is now best at, the autocannon still does a good job thanks to rate of fire. If shooting at vehicles you don't have to remain stationary as your heavy bolters aren't that good at anti-vehicle, and once they're blown up you'll probably be in a good position to remain stationary and shoot at infantry.

 

So does the TL-LC really have a significant increase in effectiveness against vehicles over the autocannon, especially when we take into account points spent?

 

Okay, so Templars pay 20 pts more for the LasBolter Pred over the AutoBolter Pred - due to paying too much for the Dakka Pred in the first place....

 

Auto cannon versus AV 10.

4/6 x 3/6 x 2/6 = 24/216. 100/216 x 24 = 11.1%.

2nd shot = 9.87%

20.97% chance of DESTROYING AV 10.

 

Auto cannon versus AV 11.

4/6 x 2/6 x 2/6 = 16/216. 100/216 x 16 = 7.4%.

2nd shot - 6.85%

14.25% chance of DESTROYING AV 11.

 

Auto cannon versus AV 12.

4/6 x 1/6 x 2/6 = 8/216. 100/216 x 8 = 3.7%.

3.56%

7.26% chance of DESTROYING AV 12.

 

Auto cannon------------20.97---14.25----7.26

Twin-linked LC----------24,69---19,75---14,81---9,88---4,94

 

The tlLC costs 118% of the AC Pred.

 

tlLC efficiency versus:

AV10 - 117.7%

AV11 - 138.6%

AV12 - 204.3%

 

Now if anyone anyone can see errors in my maths, please point it out ;)

[DarkGuard]

I'm no good at maths, you could have just put down that autocannons only have a 20% chance to kill AV10 and lascannons have a 99% chance I would probably have believe you :P.

 

Anyway, thanks for taking the time with that. I'm surprised at AV10 to be honest, I thought they would at least be equal, with the lascannon just ahead at AV11.

 

The interesting thing is the efficiency thing, and I think that this is the reason why TL-LC/HB is good for Black Templars but not so great for C:SM. As you've said your dakka Preds are overpriced, and therefore the points cost to upgrade autocannon to lascannon is less than half the points the cost to do the same in C:SM. Would I be correct in saying that the percentage points increase of the TL-LC upgrade for C:SM is 152.9%? If so, then I think that clearly shows that for the vast majority of similar targets they'll be shooting at, it's not worth the upgrade, as it only really becomes cost-effective against AV12 and above.

 

Again, interesting to note, I imagine that if C:BT ever gets redone at some point then your Preds will be more in line with ours, so unfortunately no TL-LC/HB.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I'm no good at maths, you could have just put down that autocannons only have a 20% chance to kill AV10 and lascannons have a 99% chance I would probably have believe you :P.

 

Anyway, thanks for taking the time with that. I'm surprised at AV10 to be honest, I thought they would at least be equal, with the lascannon just ahead at AV11.

 

The interesting thing is the efficiency thing, and I think that this is the reason why TL-LC/HB is good for Black Templars but not so great for C:SM. As you've said your dakka Preds are overpriced, and therefore the points cost to upgrade autocannon to lascannon is less than half the points the cost to do the same in C:SM. Would I be correct in saying that the percentage points increase of the TL-LC upgrade for C:SM is 152.9%? If so, then I think that clearly shows that for the vast majority of similar targets they'll be shooting at, it's not worth the upgrade, as it only really becomes cost-effective against AV12 and above.

 

Yes, it is 152.9%

 

See, you can do maths well enough!

 

So I was thinking of dropping my idea, and using the Dakka Preds instead to save points. But as we pay 25 pts over a SM one, the 20 pt saving we do make just isn't that worthwhile. Now I've done the maths I am happy to take the LasBolters.

[KhorneHunter57x]

I think KhorneHunter57x has brought up a very interesting situation where this particular configuration shines. He's using them in a list which has saturated the weapon load out choice in multiple vehicles, 4 of which are heavily armoured. Essentially, each one gives similar performance, with the Predators being slightly better at killing infantry while the Landraiders are slightly better at anti-tank duties. In a game he can rely on any one of the 4 main vehicles in the army to do the same thing against any particular target.

 

This is a circumstance the expensive cost of utility actually becomes effective. On it's own, a single Predator with Heavy Bolters might be a tad expensive for it's loss of mobility in this edition, yet when you have 3 or 4 such vehicles in an army you increase the target saturation for opponents and can multiply your effectiveness.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. As all four main vehicles have similar capabilities, my opponent also cannot single out one of my vehicles, destroy it, and in the process cripple my ability to deal with a set of targets.

 

So I was thinking of dropping my idea, and using the Dakka Preds instead to save points. But as we pay 25 pts over a SM one, the 20 pt saving we do make just isn't that worthwhile. Now I've done the maths I am happy to take the LasBolters.

I don't think it is so much "this many points more for a Templar one over a Codex one" or "this many points more than a Dakka Predator," I think it comes down to "is the Lascannon/HB Predator worth the 130 points that I pay for it?" (oddly enough, the Lascannon/HB Predator costs the same in both codicies)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So I was thinking of dropping my idea, and using the Dakka Preds instead to save points. But as we pay 25 pts over a SM one, the 20 pt saving we do make just isn't that worthwhile. Now I've done the maths I am happy to take the LasBolters.

I don't think it is so much "this many points more for a Templar one over a Codex one" or "this many points more than a Dakka Predator," I think it comes down to "is the Lascannon/HB Predator worth the 130 points that I pay for it?" (oddly enough, the Lascannon/HB Predator costs the same in both codicies)

 

Well, I do use Codex comparison as a yard stick, combined with mathhammer. I know others don't and why they don't like it, but I think, just like mathhammer, that informed use of it is wise. It gives you 'trends' if not something concrete.

 

If the BT Dakka is 4/5ths as good as a LasBolter Pred, at 4/5ths of the cost, then that is 'keeping value'.

If the UM Dakka is 3/5ths the cost, then it becomes 'good value'

 

Does that mean it fits in your list - no. But when you have 'good value' units, it is a good idea to see if they can be woven into your list and/or a new play-style be adopted.

 

Take for example BT Typhoons. We know they are good just because UM players take them. That ours are 20 pts cheaper is a dingdingding moment - I better check these guys out. If we paid the same price, perhaps they are not worth investigating. But at a discount, they become something that deserves definite attention.

 

+++

 

I mean, if Tau and Orks could both take Hammernators and Tau needed it more, even if they also paid more for it, then it is still a good idea for them to pay the higher points for it.

[DarkGuard]

I'm no good at maths, you could have just put down that autocannons only have a 20% chance to kill AV10 and lascannons have a 99% chance I would probably have believe you :P.

 

Anyway, thanks for taking the time with that. I'm surprised at AV10 to be honest, I thought they would at least be equal, with the lascannon just ahead at AV11.

 

The interesting thing is the efficiency thing, and I think that this is the reason why TL-LC/HB is good for Black Templars but not so great for C:SM. As you've said your dakka Preds are overpriced, and therefore the points cost to upgrade autocannon to lascannon is less than half the points the cost to do the same in C:SM. Would I be correct in saying that the percentage points increase of the TL-LC upgrade for C:SM is 152.9%? If so, then I think that clearly shows that for the vast majority of similar targets they'll be shooting at, it's not worth the upgrade, as it only really becomes cost-effective against AV12 and above.

 

Yes, it is 152.9%

 

See, you can do maths well enough!

 

So I was thinking of dropping my idea, and using the Dakka Preds instead to save points. But as we pay 25 pts over a SM one, the 20 pt saving we do make just isn't that worthwhile. Now I've done the maths I am happy to take the LasBolters.

 

Yeah, I can do maths again! Totally didn't use a calculator <_<

 

As for the choice, it seems you made the informed choice, I think many people may have just gone back down to autocannons when lascannons got powered down. However, the thing is, I don't really care much about the difference between one or two shots, especially as the one is twin-linked and the two isn't. They'll kill the same amount of infantry, it's the heavy bolters that matter. I feel it is just the points in C:SM that's stopped TL-LC/HB from being preferred.