Maybe we should thank M.W after all?

[SnorriSnorrison]

I agree with everything you have said here pretty much snori, as always you speaketh the truth.

 

I wish you were right. :lol:

 

 

Snorri

[vharing]

I hate how everyone is more worried about how balanced or competitive an army book is. When I started playing, it was for fun. I have had a lot less fun as of late playing against people who dont seen to realize that a pick up game isnt just another chane to horribly crush another player.

[maxbott]

While i agree that MW did write a much better codex over all. For all the reasons listed before, fast rhinos, etc etc. I dislike the DC tycho, useless, and what he did to tactical squads. While i know many feel differently than me on this forum. I find that there isn't anything the tac squad can do that a scout,assault or dev squad can do better. Not sure what he could have done differently, price drop, allowed hvy weapons in a five man team. But i know that my 5 painted squads are completely retired for this codex.

[Rik84]

i dont see why they didnt drop tycho from the codex seeing as he is dead, after all its like not they have not done it before in other marine codexs. it would be nice if that rules as in the units mirriored the units on the table top

[FerociousBeast]

The book seems pretty well balanced. One thing Ward can do is balance a book around 5E. He took a lot of flak early on with C:SM5E for how powerful the book seemed, but in hindsight, it was just the first book in a series of books occupying a higher power level. Whether they should have taken the game to that higher power level is a debate for another thread (and forum), but now we're there, Ward's books sit in that higher balance nicely.

 

What I don't like about the book, besides the fluff, is that, while you can make a powerful Blood Angels army, it's not going to look much like the Blood Angels you thought you knew. That competitive Blood Angels army will have lots of Assault Squads, lots of Death Company, Sang Guard, Mephiston, a Librarian, and a lot of really fast, really shooty tanks. It won't have Tactical Squads, it won't have Scouts, it won't have Terminators, it won't have Captains. It won't have the things that are supposed to be the heart and soul of the Blood Angels, even by the fluff in this codex.

 

Yes, the book is balanced, but the balance isn't fluffed. Ward didn't make a book that encouraged play like the Blood Angels are supposed to play.

 

But he's not alone in that failure. Cruddace also failed here with Tyranids and IG, and Kelly came close to failing in Space Wolves, though there are some saving graces.

[JamesI]

I can't argue with FB here.

 

When the new codex came out, I played for a little while with a captain attached to his HG, 1-2 RAS and 1-2 Tacs depending on the list with a few tank back up.

 

Predictably, it did not perform well.

[Brother Chris]

I'm surprised how much I like the new Codex. I loved the pdf, but on B&C everyone seemed to play assault squads in rhinos with a Corbulo who never got out and a chaplain, usually Lemartes, who shepherded the mandatory Death squad. I never played this - the chapter was clearly intended to be primarily jump-packed with Dante and Mephiston leading. In the new Codex there are lots of viable play styles, from DoA to the various fast armour techniques and, aside from the captain issue, a variety of HQ possibilities. I actually played 'friends re-united' last week with Dante, Mephiston, Corbulo and Lemartes all in one FOC.

 

I don't like some things, but the only two I really hate and will never use are Sanguinor and Astorath. We already had the very powerful gold angel guy, we already had the very powerful sinister dark guy with a flayed muscled power armour, we already had a freaky super chaplain. To come up with new versions of the same characters essentially was a bad more and means that Dante seems to be rarely fielded and Astorath very common. I think he has been in every WD BA thing. If they wanted more special characters then they could have had the techmarine behind the Lucifer engines (Lucifer?), Carnarvon, a close combat scout sergeant equivalent to Telion, anything really except the duplicates we got.

 

Red Thirst and the Sanguinary Priests are lovely additions, as is Descent of Angels and Vanguard (better than old Veteran Assault). The FOC is far more versatile than the Pdf, where some elite choices would never get taken. The only truly pointless one this time round is the techmarine. Last time he didn't take up a slot, so I usually had one to mend the Furioso. Now He needs a bike or a jump-pack to keep up with the fast vehicles. Even the DC dread is fleet! And he takes up a slot which could have, e.g three sanguinary priests in. He gets a whole page of fluff too.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I like the book overall, and I especially like the fact you can build so many different armies with it.

 

That being said, there are some major issues:

-DC can't be controlled. While I think that their non-JP cost is fine, Rage make them too much of a liability for me to take them. Same for DC dreads.

-Assault squads as troops just breaks the fluff too much. If MW at least followed the SM bike captain route, I guess I would have been fine with it, but not as it is now.

-Speaking of captains (and this applies to all SM captains, really), how is it that some of the finesse leaders and tacticians in the galaxy have no rules to represent their acumen. They are just completely useless combat monsters. Let's not even talk about the fact that a chapter reknowned for loving finally crafted gear doesn't have acess to arty armour.

-I don't get how sang priests give FnP to everyone within 6 inches. Is he just that much more competent than other chapter's apothecaries? Blood Chalice should have given Fearless and FC to within 6", and the priest given FnP to the squad he's with. Would have made more sense to me.

-Red Thirst just sucks. Maybe all BA should have FC, but as malus, they have to take a Ld test NOT to assault if there are any enemies within 6".

-Sang guard, the "super elite"... are just normal elite guys with nipple armour. Yay.

-Sanguinor. Not needed, not good. Just a worthless entry.

-Mephiston. No, just no.

-Normal dreads are heavy support... why?

-The raven is HS too... why? At least GK got this right as a FA.

-No raiders in HS... again, why? If the BA have so many that they can use them as dedicated transports, why can't they still fill their normal HS roles too. Also, lolDSing Raiders. Not only a stupid idea fluff-wise, but completely useless game-wise.

'

[robot530]

This is the best codex we have ever had.

 

There are a huge variety of lists to take. So many options. We have the ability to field our troops in a number of different ways. Our special characters have amazing abilities on the battlefield. How many new characters did we get? And the old ones all got buffed, including Tycho. RAS, VV, HG, DC, SG (five squads! Did I miss any?) all able to Jumppack/deepstrike. Deepstriking Land Raiders that don't take up FOC slots! Storm Ravens DC Dreads with blood talons baalpredatorslibrariandreadfastvindicatorsanguinarypriests as elite choice, etc. ETC! And we still have the option to field normal stuff like tactical and devs if you really want too.

 

Yea!

 

All the new fluff totally rocks too. Pages of the stuff. Most of it incredible and much of it totally new. Just delete that one offending line with a sharpie and don't let it ruin your day. Shame about the standard Captain, but I think I can live...

[Rik84]

Our special characters have amazing abilities on the battlefield. How many new characters did we get?

 

maybe thats the problem, just like C:sm we now have to take a SC just to do well on the table top, what ever happened to the building your own, and making your own fluff, look at his first marine codex, do you every see a none named capatian or chapter master, hell no, MW actively pushes playes to take SC, which is wrong, these guys are the greatest heros the chapter has but do they need to be at every battle the chapter fights? i would have liked to see more rules on the captains, and again why is Tycho in the book? he is dead.

 

as for the fluff, meh its ok some alittle bit silly and one battle is just not be to be talked about ever!! unless they put it in the neco codex as well

 

rik

[robot530]

Rik84: I've never seen special characters as a problem. I know many posters don't like them. I just never understood those arguments against them. I think it came from fans of the old C:SM trait system being upset at its disappearing. But I am suprised people haven't gotten over it this many years later. Yeah BA do have a legit gripe about having a weak Captain choice. What are you gonna do? It doesn't mean the special characters we do have shouldn't be taken because supposedly everyone takes them. If you realize that they are worth their points and are useful on the table top then take one but make your own counts as and create your own story. MANY people do this. I am making counts as for all the characters (except Sanguinor because he is awesome). I have a counts as Seth in gold armour and a DC Sanguinary Priest that counts as Lemartes that I'm working on right now. Tycho is a legend that continues to fight after death. The fluff can't keep him from the tabletop. He now comes in two flavors- Sternguard toughguy or DC Psycho. Also make a counts as...

 

The new codex is our best yet. So many options.

[SamaNagol]

I played for 6 months without a special character. They are far from obligatory. And now that Force Weapons are all over the place on Grey Knights, Mephiston is certainly not a no-brainer tournament selection either.

 

This is one of the most well balanced codices out in the current edition and is insanely customizable. I wholeheartedly applaud Matt Ward fo his rules writing skill.

 

His fluff writing sucks big hairy bean bags though.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Our special characters have amazing abilities on the battlefield. How many new characters did we get?

 

maybe thats the problem, just like C:sm we now have to take a SC just to do well on the table top, what ever happened to the building your own, and making your own fluff, look at his first marine codex, do you every see a none named capatian or chapter master, hell no, MW actively pushes playes to take SC, which is wrong, these guys are the greatest heros the chapter has but do they need to be at every battle the chapter fights? i would have liked to see more rules on the captains, and again why is Tycho in the book? he is dead.

 

as for the fluff, meh its ok some alittle bit silly and one battle is just not be to be talked about ever!! unless they put it in the neco codex as well

 

rik

 

I've never used a s.c with the new dex. A libby or rec. is all you need. The others are gravy which I have no room for in DoA.

[Rik84]

there not so much a problem for the like of the BA or SW codex, but the way he did them in c:sm kind of killed the none named chapter master and captain, and for the record i wasnt really a fan of the old system, it was to good and the draw backs didnt affect your army in anyway.. dont want bikes then pick the trait for that.. not great, as for the new codex MW seems to puch you in taken a SC if you want your army to fight a certain way, why couldnt the chapter master and captain have combat tac that tailor your force for a points cost, so stealth for 35 points.. fleet for 40 points ect ect. instead we get "this is captain bob im imba hard of the yellow spotted chapter" but im using shirkes rules. but thats a new thread so i'll stop

 

the BA codex is good, im not saying it isnt, theres a few things that im not a fan of, but thats my view, i dont rate MW as a good codex writer and i fear the day he writes codex Black Templars god knows what we will end up having then

 

just a quick question, about the rules that he does write. Van Guard are elite assault marines right, so why do you have to pay for the jump packs? shouldnt thay come with them? you pay something like 150 points to be able to use there unit rule why? ok in the BA codex you can give them a land raider but still shouldnt assault troops are are elite versions of the line company units not come with jump packs?

 

rik

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

there not so much a problem for the like of the BA or SW codex, but the way he did them in c:sm kind of killed the none named chapter master and captain, and for the record i wasnt really a fan of the old system, it was to good and the draw backs didnt affect your army in anyway.. dont want bikes then pick the trait for that.. not great, as for the new codex MW seems to puch you in taken a SC if you want your army to fight a certain way, why couldnt the chapter master and captain have combat tac that tailor your force for a points cost, so stealth for 35 points.. fleet for 40 points ect ect. instead we get "this is captain bob im imba hard of the yellow spotted chapter" but im using shirkes rules. but thats a new thread so i'll stop

 

the BA codex is good, im not saying it isnt, theres a few things that im not a fan of, but thats my view, i dont rate MW as a good codex writer and i fear the day he writes codex Black Templars god knows what we will end up having then

 

just a quick question, about the rules that he does write. Van Guard are elite assault marines right, so why do you have to pay for the jump packs? shouldnt thay come with them? you pay something like 150 points to be able to use there unit rule why? ok in the BA codex you can give them a land raider but still shouldnt assault troops are are elite versions of the line company units not come with jump packs?

 

rik

 

You don't pay a single point for their rule, heroic intervention is pretty much free. At 35 points a pop with a power weapon, Vanguards could be quite good in a raider with a priest. So all if fair if you ask me.

[Rik84]

You don't pay a single point for their rule, heroic intervention is pretty much free. At 35 points a pop with a power weapon, Vanguards could be quite good in a raider with a priest. So all if fair if you ask me.

 

 

so you dont pay 100 points for jump packs which you need for heroic intervention?? think you will find that you do

 

rik

[ServoBadger]

There's only one thing in the Codex that makes no sense to me, and that's DC Tycho not being able to join the DC. I can't see me using him, which is a shame since I think his model looks much better in DC colours.

 

I would very much have liked to have been able to give a Captain a Glaive Encarmine. Just because that would mark him out as a Blood Angels Captain. I know he can have an Infernus Pistol or a Hand Flamer, but it's just not the same!

 

...and pretty much, that's everything I don't like about the Codex, although IMO some of the fluff is a bit wobbly.

 

On the other hand, the guy I play against most frequently really dislikes Mephiston, the Sanguinor, and particularly the Sanguinary Guard (which he had a LOT of trouble dealing with), not to mention the amount of FNP we can have. It got so that the games weren't fun, so I ended up resting my Blood Angels and starting a Dark Eldar army (which I find pretty hard to win with, TBH!) and occasionally using my girlfriend's Tyranids, which seem to be somewhere in the middle. Using my Blood Angels one game in three has actually made for a much better atmosphere, so maybe those people who say our Codex is "broken" or "over-powered" are on to something - at least at 2000pts. I have a lot more trouble with the Blood Angels at 1000pts, because I can't fit in things like the Sanguinary Guard...

[AngelOfDeathXIII]

I only started playing when 5th Edition came out and after studying the older Codexes I must say I think the rules of this one are the best. It gives the Blood Angels a unique feel just like the Space Wolfs. I can't say I like all of the fluff (Necrons, Sanguinor, Astorath) but the rest of it isn't horrible.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

You don't pay a single point for their rule, heroic intervention is pretty much free. At 35 points a pop with a power weapon, Vanguards could be quite good in a raider with a priest. So all if fair if you ask me.

 

 

so you dont pay 100 points for jump packs which you need for heroic intervention?? think you will find that you do

 

rik

 

What I meant was that their jump packs cost 10 points, same as Honour Guard who don't have heroic intervention. A V.V costs 4 points more than a regular marine, which seems fair for an extra attack. Hence, by not having jump packs as default, V.V become more flexible. You can chose yourself if you want to use this option (by having them in a raider, or rhino, or whatever), or not. Most probably, you don't, but it gives you more options.

[Rik84]

You don't pay a single point for their rule, heroic intervention is pretty much free. At 35 points a pop with a power weapon, Vanguards could be quite good in a raider with a priest. So all if fair if you ask me.

 

 

so you dont pay 100 points for jump packs which you need for heroic intervention?? think you will find that you do

 

rik

 

What I meant was that their jump packs cost 10 points, same as Honour Guard who don't have heroic intervention. A V.V costs 4 points more than a regular marine, which seems fair for an extra attack. Hence, by not having jump packs as default, V.V become more flexible. You can chose yourself if you want to use this option (by having them in a raider, or rhino, or whatever), or not. Most probably, you don't, but it gives you more options.

 

how are they more flexible, a troop choice assault squad can have a raider or rhino or whatever but gets to take 35 points of the cost of the transport, what im asking is why does matt ward seem to think that VG need to buy there jump packs when thay are assault vets? do stern guard need to buy there bolters and sweet ammo? no they dont yet they are elite tactical sqauds

 

rik

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

how are they more flexible, a troop choice assault squad can have a raider or rhino or whatever but gets to take 35 points of the cost of the transport, what im asking is why does matt ward seem to think that VG need to buy there jump packs when thay are assault vets? do stern guard need to buy there bolters and sweet ammo? no they dont yet they are elite tactical sqauds

 

rik

 

From the OED:

 

Flexible (adjective)

1 (approving)

able to change to suit new conditions or situations

 

In the way that you can use them in more ways than one. Can a RAS take 10 power weapons? No. It doesn't have to be good, but thing is they CAN.

They're not overpriced as it is, so what does it matter if they have jump packs or not, you still end up paying the same?

 

edit:

Let's also not forget that they cost the same as C:SM V.V. No increase in points, but they are far better.

[shatter]

Ward gave us whole and complete chapters to play with.

 

Before then it was a perceived edge of the madness and it ended up being a simplistic and defining caricature.

 

He fixed it. Now a list can be populated with sane strategists and loons side by side; No loons at all, or hang the sense of it, just Psycho Tycho and DC & DC dreads.

 

But further, we can have hordes, mech, armour, elite, uber elite armies. Shooty or assault. DoA or footsloggers.

 

Thanks, Matt.

[JMac]

at least we got a dex...sigh...poor necrons and witch hunters

[1Drop]

at least we got a dex...sigh...poor necrons and witch hunters

 

New witch hunters, I hear whispers of such a thing!? If so I'm gonna build a small WH force so I can field inquisitor karamazov, I love the guy and the fact you can target you own units to avoid scattering.. I heard of a guy at my LGW purposely getting a GK terminator surrounded by ork boyz then targeting the the terminator and wipping out all of the boyz but the terminator survived!

[Gv0zD]

What I find pretty funny, is how people still criticize Matt Ward. Thanks to him we have a decent dex, with different builds available, able to win tournaments and fun to play as well. Ok, some say MW failed. Compared to what? Is this new dex so bad compared to PDF-dex? Or it's bad compared to Vanilla-dex or SW or GK?

 

As shatter said: "Thanks, Matt". +1