Warp rift and wound allocation

[spu00sed]

I was wondering how wound allocation interacts with warp rift.

 

For example I had three pallies, a librarian and a grand master ready to assault 5 normal termies. I decided to only cast warp rift and three of the termies fell into the warp :)

 

However what would have happened if the rest of the squad fired and I managed 7 wounding hits.

 

Could two of the warp rift hits be stacked onto one termie (let’s assume they can do wound allocation shenanigans)?

 

If they can’t stack the warp rifts, can they allocate armour saves to the termies that have failed the warp rift test?

[Brovius]

I'd say they are able to allocate the wounds as they please (aside from Warp Rift kills, of course).

Eg, 4 out of 5 Termies fail their I test, and you cause 9 wounds with Storm Bolters. I don't think there is anything stopping the other player from allocating 8 of those wounds on to Termies who will die to Warp Rift, with the remaining allocated to the lone survivor.

 

Then again, Warp Rift does not cause wounds in the conventional way, so it does make it harder to determine how wound allocation works.

[bl00d bath76]

looking at the rules for warp rift i would say you cannot stack 2 warp rift 'wounds on one model. This is because the codex overrides rulebook and hence 'for every test that is failed, one model is removed as a casualty'. However because of wood allocation i think it is possible to place wounds on the warp rift killed model. Warp rift is the same time as shooting from the rest of the unit therefore some terminators in this case may be warp rifted and take a few mounds. For example against 5 terminators:

 

If 3 fail inititive test and 5 wounds caused then:

 

3 die because of warp rift but because of wound allocation each terminator takes a wound so three wounds are 'wasted' on the terminators killed by warp rift so the other two terminators take a wound each.

 

Main point here is follow wound allocation however codex overrides rulebook and codex says 'for every test that is failed, one model is removed as a casualty'.

[Cmdr Shepard]

'for every test that is failed, one model is removed as a casualty'

:

This rises another question: If an IC is under the template can the model be removed as casualty?

[bl00d bath76]

Yes it can be any model in the unit which the owning play would choose.

[Angelis Mortis]

I do believe your all wrong. Warp Rift does not inflict wounds so there are no wounds to apply/distribute. Each model touched by the template simply takes a initiative test and is removed if it fails. This is outside of shooting that causes wounds and is not subject to wound allocation shenanigans (that goes for Wolf Cav and Nob Bikers too). It simply does not cause wounds so you wouldn't even get to that part of the step. Its a totally different mechanic as stated in its own special rules.

[Tograth]

I think too many people are looking at the psychic power superficially and deciding that it works the same way as Jaws of the world wolf does - this is NOT the case. :(

 

The exact wording is the following:

 

*The target unit must take an initiative test for each non vehicle model hit. For every test that is failed, one model is removed as a casualty with no saves allowed. Vehicles take a single penetrating hit."

 

 

the way it works is as follows:

 

you target a squad of 6 Megarmoured nobs and Ghazghul Thrakka with warp rift. You place the template, and manage to hit 3 models - 2 unique nobs and Ghazzy.

 

The Ork player would then roll 3 initiative tests using the majority Initiative of 3. Lets say, for arguments sake, that he fails only 1 test. The ork player may choose to remove any model from the squad- it does not have to be one of the ones who are actually hit. He could even (if he really really wanted to...) take off Ghazzy.

[Zagman]

I do believe your all wrong. Warp Rift does not inflict wounds so there are no wounds to apply/distribute. Each model touched by the template simply takes a initiative test and is removed if it fails. This is outside of shooting that causes wounds and is not subject to wound allocation shenanigans (that goes for Wolf Cav and Nob Bikers too). It simply does not cause wounds so you wouldn't even get to that part of the step. Its a totally different mechanic as stated in its own special rules.

 

I believe you are correct.

 

In the BRB under characteristic tests it states that the model has to take the test and is then bound by the result. This could effectively snipe an IC out of a unit with a lucky failed test.

 

Though it does say that for ever failed test a model is removed. "For every test that is failed, one model is removed as a casualty with with no saving throws allowed." In theory this could allow an IC to fail its test and pass the model removed to someone else.

 

To the other point, this all happens simultaneously. I believe you would be able to allocate wounds as normal overloading rends etc onto the models which will be removed for failing the test. This will likely need to be clarified in an FAQ.

[Zagman]

I think too many people are looking at the psychic power superficially and deciding that it works the same way as Jaws of the world wolf does - this is NOT the case. :(

 

The exact wording is the following:

 

*The target unit must take an initiative test for each non vehicle model hit. For every test that is failed, one model is removed as a casualty with no saves allowed. Vehicles take a single penetrating hit."

 

 

the way it works is as follows:

 

you target a squad of 6 Megarmoured nobs and Ghazghul Thrakka with warp rift. You place the template, and manage to hit 3 models - 2 unique nobs and Ghazzy.

 

The Ork player would then roll 3 initiative tests using the majority Initiative of 3. Lets say, for arguments sake, that he fails only 1 test. The ork player may choose to remove any model from the squad- it does not have to be one of the ones who are actually hit. He could even (if he really really wanted to...) take off Ghazzy.

But it states model hit, and under characteristic tests in the BRB this gets a bit fishy.

[Tograth]

I think too many people are looking at the psychic power superficially and deciding that it works the same way as Jaws of the world wolf does - this is NOT the case. ;)

 

The exact wording is the following:

 

*The target unit must take an initiative test for each non vehicle model hit. For every test that is failed, one model is removed as a casualty with no saves allowed. Vehicles take a single penetrating hit."

 

 

the way it works is as follows:

 

you target a squad of 6 Megarmoured nobs and Ghazghul Thrakka with warp rift. You place the template, and manage to hit 3 models - 2 unique nobs and Ghazzy.

 

The Ork player would then roll 3 initiative tests using the majority Initiative of 3. Lets say, for arguments sake, that he fails only 1 test. The ork player may choose to remove any model from the squad- it does not have to be one of the ones who are actually hit. He could even (if he really really wanted to...) take off Ghazzy.

But it states model hit, and under characteristic tests in the BRB this gets a bit fishy.

 

 

where exactly? nothing in the BRB says anything that would make this fishy :/

 

If you read the whole of it, the number of models hit, and who they are are purely incidental - they determine the number of initiative tests that the squad as a whole must take, and that is all. after that, they are allocated like a normal shooting attack, and even are rolled at the same time, rolling against initiative rather than the armour save.

[Gentlemanloser]

Warp rift is the same time as shooting from the rest of the unit therefore some terminators in this case may be warp rifted and take a few mounds.

 

To the other point, this all happens simultaneously. I believe you would be able to allocate wounds as normal overloading rends etc onto the models which will be removed for failing the test.

 

This. ;)

 

And;

 

This could effectively snipe an IC out of a unit with a lucky failed test.

 

;)

 

If you read the whole of it, the number of models hit, and who they are are purely incidental - they determine the number of initiative tests that the squad as a whole must take, and that is all. after that, they are allocated like a normal shooting attack, and even are rolled at the same time, rolling against initiative rather than the armour save.

 

Not so. There's no "Majority I" rule for these characteristic tests. And units could quite esily be made up of many Varied I scores (If only DCA, Warriors, Inquisitors for example).

 

The exact mini/s hit by the template take the I test. That can't be distributed.

[Zagman]

Warp rift is the same time as shooting from the rest of the unit therefore some terminators in this case may be warp rifted and take a few mounds.

 

To the other point, this all happens simultaneously. I believe you would be able to allocate wounds as normal overloading rends etc onto the models which will be removed for failing the test.

 

This. :)

 

And;

 

This could effectively snipe an IC out of a unit with a lucky failed test.

 

;)

 

If you read the whole of it, the number of models hit, and who they are are purely incidental - they determine the number of initiative tests that the squad as a whole must take, and that is all. after that, they are allocated like a normal shooting attack, and even are rolled at the same time, rolling against initiative rather than the armour save.

 

Not so. There's no "Majority I" rule for these characteristic tests. And units could quite esily be made up of many Varied I scores (If only DCA, Warriors, Inquisitors for example).

 

The exact mini/s hit by the template take the I test. That can't be distributed.

 

Agreed, this is the way that I read it.

[Angelis Mortis]

Warp rift is the same time as shooting from the rest of the unit therefore some terminators in this case may be warp rifted and take a few mounds.

 

To the other point, this all happens simultaneously. I believe you would be able to allocate wounds as normal overloading rends etc onto the models which will be removed for failing the test.

 

This. :)

 

And;

 

This could effectively snipe an IC out of a unit with a lucky failed test.

 

;)

 

If you read the whole of it, the number of models hit, and who they are are purely incidental - they determine the number of initiative tests that the squad as a whole must take, and that is all. after that, they are allocated like a normal shooting attack, and even are rolled at the same time, rolling against initiative rather than the armour save.

 

Not so. There's no "Majority I" rule for these characteristic tests. And units could quite esily be made up of many Varied I scores (If only DCA, Warriors, Inquisitors for example).

 

The exact mini/s hit by the template take the I test. That can't be distributed.

 

Agreed, this is the way that I read it.

 

Agreed a third time.

[CheezeFezt]

Warp rift is a shooting attack. Shooting attacks hit get allocated, then roll to wound. Whether that wounding is vs Toughness, Initiative, Leadership, Strength, etc, doesn't matter.

 

The only sniping is the Jaw of the World Worm, which say model touched by the line goes splat. Very different than "the target unit hit by". Had Warp Rift said models under the template make initiative test, then one snipe. But it doesn't. It said "target unit."

 

In regard to varied characteristic, under the characteristic test, use the majority, if none, use lowest.

[KnowThyEnemy]

Warp rift is a shooting attack. Shooting attacks hit get allocated, then roll to wound. Whether that wounding is vs Toughness, Initiative, Leadership, Strength, etc, doesn't matter.

 

The only sniping is the Jaw of the World Worm, which say model touched by the line goes splat. Very different than "the target unit hit by". Had Warp Rift said models under the template make initiative test, then one snipe. But it doesn't. It said "target unit."

 

In regard to varied characteristic, under the characteristic test, use the majority, if none, use lowest.

 

are you sure its not use the highest if there is no majority? and i agree with this. i havent read the wording for warp rift, but it sounds like it works like a basic template weapon i.e. place template, see whos hit, roll to wound (or take an I test in this case). and as we know, in 5ed, the owning player may choose which models suffer the wounds from the template, not necessarily the models who were originally under the template. i believe Tograths example would be the most accurate one, though no one in their right mind would actually remove Ghaz (unless dem Docz haz bin messin wiv der 'eadz :D).

 

Also, as a point of contention, you couldn't use an IC's I value to pass (or fail) a characteristic test and then remove another model if he failed. you use the majority characteristic for the squad (i believe a suitable majority I example is in the combat resolution section of the BRB), so you'd be using the squad's I.

[Cmdr Shepard]

The confusion about warp rift and wound allocation comes from how similat psychic powers works. There are several powers where you have to remove the very model that failed the test. I don't remember any specific case but I heard about powers when you place a template and the very model under it must pass a test or being removed as casualty.

 

EDIT: I just remembered a specif case, even though it is not a psychic power. It's Dark Eldar homunculus' equipment that forces every model under the template to pass a T test or be removed as casualty and it seems to be the very hit models.

[Seahawk]

When a characteristic test is taken, it's on a per model basis. Each model that fails is affected separately from any other model; there's no passing off the death here. In this way models can be sniped out, just like with Mindstrike missiles, Jaws, Dangerous Terrain, the Haemonculus template weapon mentioned about, etc.

 

Shooting attacks hit get allocated, then roll to wound

This is incorrect. You allocate wounds, not hits.

[Cmdr Shepard]

When a characteristic test is taken, it's on a per model basis. Each model that fails is affected separately from any other model; there's no passing off the death here. In this way models can be sniped out, just like with Mindstrike missiles, Jaws, Dangerous Terrain, the Haemonculus template weapon mentioned about, etc.

So, does it apply to warp rift too?

[KnowThyEnemy]

ummm im not sure if thats entirely true Seahawk. I cant testify as to the way Jaws and the DE template works, but your other 2 examples don't really apply here.

 

my reasoning: dangerous terrain isn't a characteristic test, so its not really pertinent to the issue (IMO). mindstrike missles affect psykers who are HIT by the template. again, there is no characteristic test taken here. the reason you can't pass that off is because with templates the owning player may assign wounds suffered, not hits. with the missles, it states if a psyker is hit by the missle (i.e. before working out any actual damage/wounds done by the missle's S4), it suffers a PotW attack.

 

an as for characteristic tests being taken on a per model basis, this is also inaccurate. my previous example mentioned using the majority I at the end of a lost combat and failed LD. which also brings be to LD tests, which are a form of characteristic tests and i believe by far the most common one. these are also done as a majority. im not sure how effective it is to use another army's special rules for a basis when the wording doesn't quite seem to be there in the GK codex.

 

again, i haven't read the entry in a while, if you could quote it and reference the part that infers a "per model" application, thatd be nice

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Agreed, this is the way that I read it.

 

Agreed a third time.

 

*facepalm.* Guys, quoting a huge block of text to say you agree is rather pointless unless your goal is to waste everyone else's time. If everyone did this kind of thing, most of the thread would simply be block quotes plus "agree" or "disagree" after them. That's not a discussion. Save voting for a poll, or, and this may sound crazy, actually say something substantive if you feel the need to post.

 

The target unit must take an initiative test for each non vehicle model hit.

 

Reading this without adding any assumptions, I can easily see how the wording allows for the owner of the unit to decide who is removed from play. ' The target unit takes a test for each model hit' is a quite obviously different from 'each model in the unit hit must take an initiative test.' The rule as written is broader, while alternate wording I came up with limits the testing to specific models.

 

Additionally:

For every test that is failed, one model is removed as a casualty with no saves allowed.

 

This doesn't even state that the model failing the test has to be the one which is removed! If they wanted the specific models under the template to be removed, they could have easily worded this differently: "For each test that is failed, that model is removed..." or something similar.

[KnowThyEnemy]

exactly. i believe it comes down to their use of the word "unit" vs "model". if it had said "each model hit by the template must take an I test, if they fail remove them" or " each model under the template must take an I test, if they fail remove them". i think the fact they used the word unit makes it pretty clear that it works in the same way as a normal template, just with some nasty results should you fail :(. clearly not as good (for us anyway), but just calling it as i see them

[CheezeFezt]

My bad. I was completely wrong in everything I wrote earlier.

 

In BRB p 8 "Characteristic Tests: During a battle, a model might have to take a test on one of its characteriscs, commonly its Strength, Toughness or Initiative."

 

This doesn't say characteristic test are taken on a per model basis, only that if a model has to take a characteristic test, follow the rest of the rules.

 

BRB p 15 - 26, The shooting phase, one roll to hit, then roll to wound, then take saving throw, then remove casulties. Under roll to wound, compare the weapon str to toughness, using majority or highest if no majority. Under saving throw, allocate wound, then roll to save to each group of same "gaming model".

 

I thought there was a footnote saying for some weirdness weapon that don't use str vs toughness, play like S v T. There are no such rule. So I'm wrong with regard to weirder weapon.

 

That said, there are no rules governing weirder weapon, so one has to use what the codex rule say. As Fred Johnson the 3rd quoted Warp Rift, one determine the number of hits from Warp Rift. For each warp rift non-vehicle hits, target unit make an initiative tests. For each failure, remove a model as casualty.

 

Questions that arises:

 

1) There are no rules governing how to take a characteristic test for a unit. The only rule is for a model. I can see both camp side. One side is there are no rule for unit's characteristic test, so test must be per model. The other camp is the dex override the BRB, so unit take initiative tests, remove n number of model for n number of failure.

 

How to deal with mixed initiative unit is not detailed. One can so it's moot because test is per model. Other camp will say extend the shooting to wound and use majority, if none, use highest.

 

I'm of the camp the unit take tests based on dex override BRB, extending mixed initi unit as necessary.

 

2nd issues is the rule said "target unit". So if one hit multiple units with the warp rift, the non-target unit is unaffected???

 

3rd issues is if warp rift occurs in the same sequence as regular shooting; say librarian attached to another unit shooting. When to apply warp rift? Everything occurs in the same sequences for shooting? eg 1) unit shoot all weapons, determining hits. 2) for each hits, roll to wound. So warp rift initiative test take place during this sub-phase. 3) allocate wound. Are the effect of warp rift considered "wound" for this purpose, so one can allocate warp rift effect to model? If so, then if there are sufficient wound, one can double up, so assigning AP1 wound to model about to be sucked into the warp? 4) make saving throw. 5) remove casualty.

 

I don't know. There're nothing in the BRB and the dex doesn't enlighten. I would play it like normal shooting, so enemy can allocate extra wounds to model affected by warp rift. No rules to back up this interpretation. To me, it's the interpretation least likely to be in conflict with other rules.

[Angelis Mortis]

Agreed, this is the way that I read it.

 

Agreed a third time.

 

*facepalm.* Guys, quoting a huge block of text to say you agree is rather pointless unless your goal is to waste everyone else's time. If everyone did this kind of thing, most of the thread would simply be block quotes plus "agree" or "disagree" after them. That's not a discussion. Save voting for a poll, or, and this may sound crazy, actually say something substantive if you feel the need to post.

 

Not when he said exactly what we think Einstein. (I'll tell you what you can do with your face palm)

[Grey Mage]

Reading it over, I would say it works like this:

 

As a psychic shooting attack, its simultaneous with the rest of the units shooting.

 

Characteristic tests are done by model, and the rules for the power permit this- you take one test per model hit. So you count the number of models hit, and then accross the breadth of the unit you take that many tests, each on its own model.

 

Since the other shots, likely stormbolters or psycannons, are done at the same time any wounds inflicted by them are allocated normally- including to the models about to be removed whole as casualties.

 

In this way its just like Jaws, but with a flamer template.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Not when he said exactly what we think Einstein. (I'll tell you what you can do with your face palm)

 

Wow, way to miss the point. I don't care if you agree exactly. Chiming only to state you agree is bad enough (adds nothing to the discussion at all), but quoting a giant block of text as well is even worse. I am utterly flabbergasted how you can defend your action. Remember, like I said above, if we accept this kind of thing, then many threads will be filled with useless "agree" or "disagree" posts. And no reasonable person would want that.

 

 

In any case, back to the thread, KnowThyEnemy summed it up very well. The use of the word "unit" in the Warp Rift rule certainly makes things unclear, which to me is pretty obvious, but some people ignore it to rush to their preferred opinion it seems.