Warp rift and wound allocation

[Massaen]

Surely this is exactly like the dark eldar implosion missile/shatter shard...

 

From the DE FAQ -

 

Although the implosion missile causes wounds in an unusual way it should be treated the same as any other blast weapon. A unit will suffer a number of hits equal to the number of models underneath the blast marker. Using the majority Wounds value of the unit roll to see how many wounds are caused and then allocate these in the usual manner.

 

This leads to Grey Mages useage

[Gentlemanloser]

That FAQ would indeed scupper all our arguement about there being no 'majority characterist tests', and would change the way that most of us are saying Warp Rift would work.

 

Oh well, the design team can do whatever they want, I suppose.

[Angelis Mortis]

Surely this is exactly like the dark eldar implosion missile/shatter shard...

 

From the DE FAQ -

 

Although the implosion missile causes wounds in an unusual way it should be treated the same as any other blast weapon. A unit will suffer a number of hits equal to the number of models underneath the blast marker. Using the majority Wounds value of the unit roll to see how many wounds are caused and then allocate these in the usual manner.

 

This leads to Grey Mages useage

 

Surely it isn't, Warp Rift doesn't cause wounds.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah! That's a subtle distinction (which I just missed!).

 

But still, that FAQ ruling gives credence to a majority unit based characterist test. :/

[spu00sed]

I didn't realise that I had opened such a big can of worms. :D

 

Could we interoperate the warp rift as following

a) Place template

 

2) See how many models are under the template

 

c) This number of models in the unit are automatically hit and wounded

 

d) Roll to save the models, using initiative rather than armour values

 

Since the template hits and wounds, the opponent makes wound allocation before rolling to see who dies.

[Massaen]

Surely this is exactly like the dark eldar implosion missile/shatter shard...

 

From the DE FAQ -

 

Although the implosion missile causes wounds in an unusual way it should be treated the same as any other blast weapon. A unit will suffer a number of hits equal to the number of models underneath the blast marker. Using the majority Wounds value of the unit roll to see how many wounds are caused and then allocate these in the usual manner.

 

This leads to Grey Mages useage

 

Surely it isn't, Warp Rift doesn't cause wounds.

 

Neither does the impolsion missile :D

[Angelis Mortis]

I didn't realise that I had opened such a big can of worms. :D

 

Could we interoperate the warp rift as following

a) Place template

 

B) See how many models are under the template

 

c) This number of models in the unit are automatically hit and wounded

 

d) Roll to save the models, using initiative rather than armour values

 

Since the template hits and wounds, the opponent makes wound allocation before rolling to see who dies.

 

Warp rift doesn't cause wounds, it removes models. You are adding your own step to the mechanic which is not in the rule. I understand you guys don't like the idea that it can possibly snipe a model, but the way it is written it clearly can. Was that what they intended it to do, probably not and its probably just more sloppyness in an poorly written book. However, characteristic tests in the BRB are clear that the model takes the test and if it fails it suffers the effect. Warp rift is very clear in how you determine who has to take a test. Everything else you guys are arguing is just making a simple mechanic more complex than what it really is. If they had wanted it to cause wounds, they would of had it cause wounds and you would then be able to allocate. In addition, template rules do not allow any real squeeze room for picking who you want to hit. You must do it a certain way.

 

My thought is this, if you don't like the idea of how it can possibly snipe, then you should be careful how you place your special models in squads when your opponent fields it or deal with the model that has warp rift before he gets to use it.

 

EDIT: In addition, there is a precedent for sniping in the game (Vindicare) and there is no rule disallowing it. The way the mechanic is set up, granted, is designed to minimize it, but not remove it. That should be kept in mind as well. You may not like it, but it is part of the game.

 

Surely this is exactly like the dark eldar implosion missile/shatter shard...

 

From the DE FAQ -

 

Although the implosion missile causes wounds in an unusual way it should be treated the same as any other blast weapon. A unit will suffer a number of hits equal to the number of models underneath the blast marker. Using the majority Wounds value of the unit roll to see how many wounds are caused and then allocate these in the usual manner.

 

This leads to Grey Mages useage

 

Surely it isn't, Warp Rift doesn't cause wounds.

 

Neither does the impolsion missile ;)

 

Says it does in your post. Says nothing of the sort in Warp Rift.

[Massaen]

Thats from the FAQ - the entry in the codex says nothing about wounds either - just that you take a characteristic test based on wounds

[Angelis Mortis]

Thats from the FAQ - the entry in the codex says nothing about wounds either - just that you take a characteristic test based on wounds

 

Shattershard has a strength and ap value and therefore can cause wounds, Warp Rift does not. So it is not exactly the same.

Implosion missile also allows for a armor save, Warp Rift does not. It is not exactly the same.

Both are wargear, Warp Rift is a psychic power, totally different.

[Massaen]

Same effect - how is being wargear vs psychic make for a valid factor.

 

Same as the Ap on the missile - its not a factor.

 

What IS a factor is that its a characteristic test which has been FAQ'ed and can be taken as a precedent

[Angelis Mortis]

Same effect - how is being wargear vs psychic make for a valid factor.

 

Same as the Ap on the missile - its not a factor.

 

What IS a factor is that its a characteristic test which has been FAQ'ed and can be taken as a precedent

To answer all your questions:

 

1) You said "Surely this is exactly like the dark eldar implosion missile/shatter shard...", I just demonstrated three ways in which they are not exactly the same.

2) Wargear and Psychic abilities have different rules governing their use. I can't mount a hunter killer on a Tactical Marine, I can't give a psychic power to a Leman Russ.

3) And this one is just my humble opinion. Through out the fluff in the GK codex, it constantly speaks of how they are incredibly powerful psykers, it also describes the power as a warp rift which is in effect the same as a vortex missile or grenade in that they are basically doing the same thing, just in a different manner (ie, a template instead of a blast). Vortex and IMHO Warp Rifts should be very powerful powers, and I have no problem with them removing the model they touched. It fits the fluff, and it also fits the rule mechanic.

[DeathKorpsman]

Warp rift doesn't cause wounds, it removes models. You are adding your own step to the mechanic which is not in the rule. I understand you guys don't like the idea that it can possibly snipe a model, but the way it is written it clearly can. Was that what they intended it to do, probably not and its probably just more sloppyness in an poorly written book. However, characteristic tests in the BRB are clear that the model takes the test and if it fails it suffers the effect. Warp rift is very clear in how you determine who has to take a test. Everything else you guys are arguing is just making a simple mechanic more complex than what it really is. If they had wanted it to cause wounds, they would of had it cause wounds and you would then be able to allocate. In addition, template rules do not allow any real squeeze room for picking who you want to hit. You must do it a certain way.

 

My thought is this, if you don't like the idea of how it can possibly snipe, then you should be careful how you place your special models in squads when your opponent fields it or deal with the model that has warp rift before he gets to use it.

 

EDIT: In addition, there is a precedent for sniping in the game (Vindicare) and there is no rule disallowing it. The way the mechanic is set up, granted, is designed to minimize it, but not remove it. That should be kept in mind as well. You may not like it, but it is part of the game.

Actually, the power doesn't say "every model under the template must take an Initiative Test or be removed with no saves allowed", it says "the target unit must take an Initiative Test for each model hit". There is an important distinction, because "the unit" is generic and so allows the controlling player to decide which models in the unit test. However, as it is a Characteristic Test with no FAQ, the models chosen by the controlling player to take the test are the ones that are removed if they fail. So sniping isn't possible with this power, because the player who controls the target unit gets to decide which models in the unit take the test. They do not have to be the models that are under the template.

 

2) Wargear and Psychic abilities have different rules governing their use. I can't mount a hunter killer on a Tactical Marine, I can't give a psychic power to a Leman Russ.

But you can have a Rhino with Fortitude. Bazinga!

[Angelis Mortis]

Actually, the power doesn't say "every model under the template must take an Initiative Test or be removed with no saves allowed", it says "the target unit must take an Initiative Test for each model hit". There is an important distinction, because "the unit" is generic and so allows the controlling player to decide which models in the unit test. However, as it is a Characteristic Test with no FAQ, the models chosen by the controlling player to take the test are the ones that are removed if they fail. So sniping isn't possible with this power, because the player who controls the target unit gets to decide which models in the unit take the test. They do not have to be the models that are under the template.

 

The rule says they have to take a characteristic test, at which point you turn to your BRB and see how to do that and it says the model takes the test and suffers the effect. It makes no sense to have an IC with a 5 strength fail a str test then remove a 2 strength model in his stead. The test was taken on the model with the best chance to make it, it failed, that model must be the one removed.

 

 

2) Wargear and Psychic abilities have different rules governing their use. I can't mount a hunter killer on a Tactical Marine, I can't give a psychic power to a Leman Russ.

But you can have a Rhino with Fortitude. Bazinga!

 

So what does that mean? There are rules that govern the mechanics of each, and its a special rule (meaning, not the norm) and unique to only one army. That in no way weakens my point nor strengthens his( or yours if your agreeing with him). If anything it strengthens my point that their are special rules that over-ride generals. KAZOWY!

 

EDIT: And for the record, its the Rhino pilot that has the psychic power, not the Rhino.

[Massaen]

1) You said "Surely this is exactly like the dark eldar implosion missile/shatter shard...", I just demonstrated three ways in which they are not exactly the same.

2) Wargear and Psychic abilities have different rules governing their use. I can't mount a hunter killer on a Tactical Marine, I can't give a psychic power to a Leman Russ.

3) And this one is just my humble opinion. Through out the fluff in the GK codex, it constantly speaks of how they are incredibly powerful psykers, it also describes the power as a warp rift which is in effect the same as a vortex missile or grenade in that they are basically doing the same thing, just in a different manner (ie, a template instead of a blast). Vortex and IMHO Warp Rifts should be very powerful powers, and I have no problem with them removing the model they touched. It fits the fluff, and it also fits the rule mechanic.

 

Ok, in reply

 

1) Yep, they are not identical but follow a similar mechanic in that its characteristic test to be removed

2) Yes - wargear is different to psychic powers in that you have to test to use a power - after that, in this and some other cases, they follow the same rules. How or who has the item is irrelevant - not sure about your point with a HK on a tac marine ;)

3) I have no idea how this relates. I said the implosion missile and its relevant FAQ give us precedent in how to handle the effects of warp rift hitting a unit. Fluff has nothing to do with it.

[CheezeFezt]

Codex Dark Eldar p 47 Implosion missile "Models hit by implosion missile must take a characteristic test based on their Wounds value (ie the one on their profile, not their current Wounds.) If they fail the test, they implode spectacularly and suffer instant death regardless of Toughness."

 

Dark Eldar FAQ 1.1a "Q: When an implosion missile hits a complex unit (one where all the models are not identical in gaming terms) how do you work out what rolls are needed to wound and how do you distribute these wounds? (p47)

 

A: Although the implosion missile causes wounds in an unusual way it should be treated the same as any other blast weapon. A unit will suffer a number of hits equal to the number of models underneath the blast marker. Using the majority Wounds value of the unit roll to see how many wounds are caused and then allocate these in the usual manner."

 

The DE FAQ pretty much provide the mechanism for how a unit take characteristic test.

 

The rule says they have to take a characteristic test, at which point you turn to your BRB and see how to do that and it says the model takes the test and suffers the effect.

 

The whole argument for individual model taking the characteristic test is that the BRB does not provide a mechanism for unit taking test nor for unit using majority value. Well, the Dark Eldar FAQ provide that mechanism. In fact, the wording of the the DE Implosion Missile is more geared toward individual model taking characteristic test -- "Models hit by implosion missile ... If they fail the test, they implode ..." Despite that, the FAQ say treat this like any other blast marker, ie unit take characteristic test.

 

It makes no sense to have an IC with a 5 strength fail a str test then remove a 2 strength model in his stead. The test was taken on the model with the best chance to make it, it failed, that model must be the one removed.

 

True, this doesn't make sense. The DE FAQ provide the mechanism for unit taking characteristic test. So, template hit x model. Make x rolls vs unit majority characteristic test. So no IC taking test, failing test, and pawning the result off to a peon. Unit take characteristic test against majority value. IC only goes puff if enough damages are done such that the IC must suffer the effect.

 

In regard to "wound allocation", there isn't much different between suffering Instant Death vs removing model (the only difference is a model may be immune to ID, so wouldn't be affected.)

 

It doesn't matter how one shoot. One can shoot from a gun. One can shoot from a flamer. One can shoot from the vehicle weapon pods. Or one can shoot using one's minds. They're all shooting, and should be treated the same.

 

The FAQ pretty much said treat the blah like a normal (eg implosion missile follows the blast template, warp rift follows the flamer template). So you can allocate extra wounds onto dude about to be sucked into the warp.

[Massaen]

Yep - thats where i was going with it!

[Grey Mage]

*snip* interesting things from the DE FAQ

 

Cool, interesting stuff right there. Its now, in my opinion, much more likely that GW will replicate this in the GK codex FAQ.

 

.... of course, on the other hand, FAQs have previously contradicted themselves and each other, so its still up in the air.

 

Hrmm.

[Angelis Mortis]

*snip* interesting things from the DE FAQ

 

Cool, interesting stuff right there. Its now, in my opinion, much more likely that GW will replicate this in the GK codex FAQ.

 

.... of course, on the other hand, FAQs have previously contradicted themselves and each other, so its still up in the air.

 

Hrmm.

 

Exactly. Thats why I don't give much weight to debate on the forums. Sure its good exercise, but FAQs have been mysterious at times.