Grey Hunters or Blood Claws?

[Crimson Fisting]

Just wondering what the majority prefers to use the most and why?

[morehardcore]

grey hunters more ranged killiness in general and more melee killiness per point

[Fellblades]

Grey Hunters are by far better than Blood Claws for the vast majority of applications. They are much more versatile, they are just as good at receiving a charge as they are at charging, they dont need to be led my a character to be effective, and can deliver a substantial punch in both ranged and close combat. Point for point, Grey Hunters are some of the best Troop choices in the game, they are a great core for any list setup.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Grey Hunters cost exactly the same as Blood Claws, but give you so much more.

 

While Phil Kelly wrote a well balanced Codex against other Codices (perhaps slightly unbalanced as we are the best), the Space Wolf Codex does suffer from poor internal balance as there's little to no reason to ever take a unit with Claw in the title.

 

I would have priced Blood Claws at 14 points, Wolf Scouts at 15 (they're worth it), Grey Hunters at 16, Long Fangs at 17, and Wolf Guard at 18. People would still have taken Grey Hunters, but for a cheaper unit for taking/holding objectives the Blood Claws might have had a use. Otherwise giving Blood Claws a special rule such as counting Rhinos as open topped for the purposes of assaulting would have made them good at the only thing they're good at.

 

Great units

Rune Priests, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Thunderlords, Land Speeders

Good units

Thunderwolves, Predators

Okay units

Wolf Priests, Vindicators, Whirlwinds

Bad units

Everything else

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

Grey Hunters have a higher WS and BS than the Blood Claws, and both cost 15 points per model.

 

That alone is enough to persuade me to always run Grey Hunters.

 

...when I'm not running Wolf Guard in TDA, that is.

 

End of Line

[d@n]

Really blood claws are only in the codex for fluff reasons, apart from being able to take large packs of up to 15 there's no advantage and the large pack thing was only any good in the 4th ed when you could spam loads of powerfists

[Hfran Morkai]

there's little to no reason to ever take a unit with Claw in the title.

 

 

Really blood claws are only in the codex for fluff reasons, apart from being able to take large packs of up to 15 there's no advantage and the large pack thing was only any good in the 4th ed when you could spam loads of powerfists

 

I laughed...

 

Grey Hunters are awesome, in fact I think they are too awesome as opposed to Blood Claws sucking. But it looks like I'm in the minority there. :)

 

The Grey Hunters are the workhorse of most forces for sure, due to their (overpowered imo) capabilites.

 

However there are definitely reasons to field Claws in all their incarnations, most people just don't bother to look for them. Skyclaws for instance provide a relatively cheap speedy unit to close with the foe, Swiftclaws are more durable and can put down a load of firepower as well as being incredibly mobile. Blood Claws can be used to swamp that blob of infantry sitting on an objective, even better when led by a Wolf Priest.

 

But of course, most people who play the Wolves wouldn't consider their primary unit overpowered. ;)

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Yes! I knew there had to be at least one other person who thought Blood Claws and their variants useful. While I don't use them in my current list, mainly because it's not charge forward and kill list, I have used them in the past to great and deadly effect.

 

And Freman, I think you need to try looking through your codex again. Almost all, if not every one, of the units is quite viable and useful. I challenge you to find a truly bad one.

[Fellblades]

I'm personally not a fan of footslogging Blood Claws, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that units like Swiftclaws or Skyclaws are useless! Swiftclaws, when used correctly, can be a very very good unit. Very resilient, thanks to T5, able to put out alot of AT firepower when given a meltagun, a multi-melta on an attack bike, and a combi-melta from a WG. And they can sure pack a punch in CC. And don't forget the mobility. Skyclaws can close with the enemy very quickly, and be a cheap method to do so, as stated above. I think almost every unit in our codex has a use when directed by a capable tactician. It would be foolish to discard half of the units in our codex.

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

But the BS 3 of the Blood Claw scares me enough to run solely GH's. I built a Wolf Lord on bike to accompany a Swift Claw pack before realizing that they are just inferior to the Grey Hunters. Of course I never said they where useless, but in almost every other codex bikes and assault marines have fours where the 'Claws" have three's. I also realize those units cost more points, which for me, is another reason that the GH's are just a better option.

 

I'll stick to my Rhino's/Razorbacks full of Grey Hunter's thank you very much.

 

End of Line

[Sarapham]

But the BS 3 of the Blood Claw scares me enough to run solely GH's. I built a Wolf Lord on bike to accompany a Swift Claw pack before realizing that they are just inferior to the Grey Hunters. Of course I never said they where useless, but in almost every other codex bikes and assault marines have fours where the 'Claws" have three's. I also realize those units cost more points, which for me, is another reason that the GH's are just a better option.

 

I'll stick to my Rhino's/Razorbacks full of Grey Hunter's thank you very much.

 

End of Line

 

The BS3 does not hurt quite as much on Swift Claws as they have Twin-linked bolters atleast, which means they can put out respectable anti-infantry fire on a mobile base.

[Adarul Greystalker]

Definitely. What does hurt swiftclaws is the headstrong rule, practically requiring them to take a wolf guard pack leader, who while quite a good model himself, has to pay a ridiculously high amount for his bike. Honestly my only serious complaint with the Space Wolf codex? Wolf guard mobility upgrade and storm shield prices - especially the bikes. I suppose the prices are such as they are so that we can't do economical Logan Grimnar-lead biker or jump pack armies (and storm shields are just plain good), but I really would've preferred a different method of dissuading that build that didn't also punish wolf guard pack leaders or non-scoring wolf guard units.

[d@n]

Yes! I knew there had to be at least one other person who thought Blood Claws and their variants useful. While I don't use them in my current list, mainly because it's not charge forward and kill list, I have used them in the past to great and deadly effect.

 

And Freman, I think you need to try looking through your codex again. Almost all, if not every one, of the units is quite viable and useful. I challenge you to find a truly bad one.

 

Yes there are lots of advantages with the fast attack claws types over grey hunters, swift claws are tougher and skyclaws are faster for instance, the problem is there ws/bs3.

They cost the same as in the other meq codices for there equivalent assault marines and bikers but because of there naff ws/bs there hitting less, even in close combat with the extra attack.

If you take them then your swimming up stream. unless your trying to get as many bodies into a land raider as possible there's no point in taking claws. that's the only reason to take them and i would rather take 8 termys then 15 blood claws in a crusader for about the same points, in that situation.

You cant put a wolf guard in with sky claws so really your only option is to use a wolf priest as the re-rolls make them a bit better so now your having to dump anther 100+ points into a unit just to get them up to average. Swift claws bikers bs3 means the multi melta is rather pointless. The claws are the worst assault marines in the whole game take them if you to help your opponent beat you but i prefer to worry about how good my list is and let him worry about his own.

[littlbitz]

I can tell you from my experiences, that while I agree that Grey Hunters are the best Troop Choice going these days, that I never leave home without a Blood Claws pack.

 

It's not hard to work around their weaknesses, and I find them very effective.

 

My current 1850 set up rolls with 2 packs of Swift Claw bikers AND a unit of Blood Claws in a Rhino (with a pack leader of course)

 

My Blood Claws pack in its humble Rhino has saved the day on more occasions than I care to count. In fact these youngsters have proven themselves so much that I consider them a must have in my army and I don't leave home without them.

 

The above aside there are some actual reasons why you can consider using a pack of Blood Claws in your army:

1. Even though their base cost is the same as the Grey Hunters, I find that once I equip them that they come out way cheaper because I give them fewer upgrades. Now this is definitely my own fault, but I just can't resist kitting out my Grey Hunters with all the goodies. My typical 9 man Grey Hunter pack will weigh in at around 195 points, where my Blood Claws pack will only cost about 150

2. They are great in either an assault or counter assault role, I use them to either support my bikers in an all out assault, or I can hang them back behind my Grey Hunters in case they should get into trouble. The bonus attacks are great on the charge, and are especially good with a Wolf Priest (in my opinion the most under rated IC in our codex)

3. Flamers, they get the Flamers. The young guys with their lower BS get the indiscriminate weaponry. I hate to waste the Grey Hunters better BS on a Flamer.

4. Anyone who knows how to play can pick up a codex and use Grey Hunters and Rune Priests, to me one of the challenges of this game is to take a unit that is considered less than optimal and find a use for it. Make it a staple choice in your army even. People tell me all the time when they see my Space Wolf armies that they shouldn't work, yet I win games all the time (of course I lose some too)

5.(and this is the most important one) They are awesome!

 

Please, the above is just my opinion. I am NOT trying to start another debate on Blood Claws vs. Grey Hunters (that horse has been dead a long time, no reason to beat it anymore), I am simply telling someone that is new to the fang why I take Blood Claws.

[Orphus]

Please, the above is just my opinion. I am NOT trying to start another debate on Blood Claws vs. Grey Hunters (that horse has been dead a long time, no reason to beat it anymore), I am simply telling someone that is new to the fang why I take Blood Claws.

Awwww *shuffles away from flogged corpse* you read my mind :)

Anyway Littlbitz what about Skyclaws? :(

[Simo429]

Blood claws is the closest power armoured unit to an Ork Mob, now the shooting of an ork mob isn't very effective as we know but enough of them will put a dent in most things. I think they are under rated.

 

You very rarely see them without a Wolf Priest or a crusader to toe them about. That leaves plenty of shooting to put into a mob for you to then assault with. I wouldn't take them in a competitive game but I certainly enjoy using them in apocalypse.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Blood claws is the closest power armoured unit to an Ork Mob, now the shooting of an ork mob isn't very effective as we know but enough of them will put a dent in most things. I think they are under rated.

 

You very rarely see them without a Wolf Priest or a crusader to toe them about. That leaves plenty of shooting to put into a mob for you to then assault with. I wouldn't take them in a competitive game but I certainly enjoy using them in apocalypse.

 

How about LRC with Arjac and Blood Claws? They become a souped up version of Boyz delivering a PK Nob.... which is always annoying to have to hack through all the Boyz. But the Claws are MEq and Arjac is somewhat better than a PK Nob :confused:

[Simo429]

Blood claws is the closest power armoured unit to an Ork Mob, now the shooting of an ork mob isn't very effective as we know but enough of them will put a dent in most things. I think they are under rated.

 

You very rarely see them without a Wolf Priest or a crusader to toe them about. That leaves plenty of shooting to put into a mob for you to then assault with. I wouldn't take them in a competitive game but I certainly enjoy using them in apocalypse.

 

How about LRC with Arjac and Blood Claws? They become a souped up version of Boyz delivering a PK Nob.... which is always annoying to have to hack through all the Boyz. But the Claws are MEq and Arjac is somewhat better than a PK Nob :confused:

Even better,

 

without a doubt they are a fun unit, my gaming club is running a apocalypse game at Warhammer world in may, might have to get arjac in to, multi melta + a strength ten hit from arjac against a land raider will deliver a lot of nastiness.

[d@n]

Blood claws is the closest power armoured unit to an Ork Mob, now the shooting of an ork mob isn't very effective as we know but enough of them will put a dent in most things. I think they are under rated.

 

You very rarely see them without a Wolf Priest or a crusader to toe them about. That leaves plenty of shooting to put into a mob for you to then assault with. I wouldn't take them in a competitive game but I certainly enjoy using them in apocalypse.

 

How about LRC with Arjac and Blood Claws? They become a souped up version of Boyz delivering a PK Nob.... which is always annoying to have to hack through all the Boyz. But the Claws are MEq and Arjac is somewhat better than a PK Nob :confused:

Thats pretty much the only way i have ever run them (in the currant dex)that has worked and i use blood claws grudgingly because you can take so many of them and they make Arjac scoring, so yeah they make a pretty good meat shield but thats about it.

By the way that set up is hugely expensive as well, your looking close to 700pts for a unit that can spend most of the game tar pitted against a unit of ard boys or gaunts.

[FenrisWolf]

But a unit of 14 blood claws, a wolf priest and Ragnar in a Crusader has a minimum of 64 attacks and a 1 in 3 chance of having 82 attacks, with 12 of them being power weapons... If you footslog them, you get 68 with a minimum of 87. Even at weapon skill 3, it is not too much difference against many opponents. Quite a nice hammer unit for 565 points, or 800 with the Land Raider.

[Prot]

I'm just going to state right out of the gate that while Grey Hunters are an awesome troop to have, there are a few other armies out there that have extremely impressive troop choices as well (if not inherently then through the rules of an HQ or something similar.)

 

On point, I tried a lot of Blood Claw variants... the bottom line is I disagree with anyone who says they're a 'fluffy' unit. To live on Fenris is one thing.. it is a frozen hell, full of hazards a lot of Imperial worlds wouldn't dream of, and to give an offspring of that planet, who has made it all the way to wearing power armour a weapon skill of 3 is horrendous.

 

Plus, I hate being hit on 3's by bull-legged Orks. It's just wrong on so many levels I can't begin to explain it.

[G. A. K.]

I have to vote for Grey Hunters, hands down. As was previously said being hit on three's really hurts your survivability, especially when they now cost the same as hunters so your not getting any more models for the same cost. Also Wolf banners are a great item that claws don't get. Not to mention their BS is well, bs. I need those meltas to hit damn it!! I have a hard enough time rolling a three when I need it sometimes. And finally, with counter-attack sometimes its better to just shoot bolters than be required to charge into assault.

[skoll]

But a unit of 14 blood claws, a wolf priest and Ragnar in a Crusader has a minimum of 64 attacks and a 1 in 3 chance of having 82 attacks, with 12 of them being power weapons... If you footslog them, you get 68 with a minimum of 87. Even at weapon skill 3, it is not too much difference against many opponents. Quite a nice hammer unit for 565 points, or 800 with the Land Raider.

for this might as well field 10 vanilla wolf guard, with ragnar and a wolf priest in a land raider 770 points , for a min of 50 an average of 62 and a maximum of 74.whilst that is 13 less attacks they are hitting things they shoot on a 3+, and dont get hit in close combat on a 3+ also leaves you with 30 points to spare compared to blood claw unit, which means you can give a wolf guard or two power weapons going up to a minimum of 18 power weapon attacks and a maximum of 26...that is quiet literally disgusting.

 

 

with no charge bonus the squad ends up with 38 attacks the exact same as the blood claw pack..... (15 x2=30 +5 from ragnar + 3 from wolf priest)

[Hfran Morkai]

The Wolf Guard unit also has less bodies and can't hold objectives (unless you've taken Logan, so another expensive character).

[skoll]

arguably the blood claw pack dies easier tough, specially in close combat, and if they get the charge on them :'( the wolf guard can take a charge tough