Killing innocents just cos the =I- says so.

[Beef]

Ok so without giving to much away i just read the hero's of the space marines. the deathwatch story has a Ultramarine in it. To be honest he was the character i least respected. At one point the deathwatch are told to kill all witnes's. The others are not to happy but the Ultra just goes ahead and kils the innocent victims. His responce is that he follows orders.

 

Now my question is this, its stated that if marines in the deathwatch dont follow their handlers (the Inq) they are sent home in disgrace.

 

Would a SW have followed a similar order? Would a SW who was sent home really consider that a disgrace or not?

 

I know that marines dont speak of their time in the deathwatch but is that an excuse for killing innocents?? I know its 40K and Grimdark but still i feel any SW worth his salt would not do that. no honour in killing innocent workers.

[Gree]

I'll repeat my answer here.

 

When a chapter willingly hands over a Marine to the Inquisition and have that Mairne specially trained by the Inqusition, I would expect those Marines to follow the orders of that organization while in the Deathwatch. It's the Deathwatch, dirty work is expected, it's black ops. Any Chapter should understand that giving their Astartes to the Inqusition would mean that dirty, nasty work would be done.

 

Otherwise why would the Inqusition take into the Deatchwatch if those Marines don't follow orders from the Inqusition?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I think a space wolf would be far too happy in killing civilians.......if they came from a Dark Angels recruiting planet or successor planet ;)

 

but seriously its a moral confliction. maybe killing one inocent person will save the lives of millions. or maybe the Space Wolf is just annoyed and thinks 'yano what you dead!'

 

Overall its individual choice, if hes had honour and nobility ideals drilled into him I dont think he would........but those same ideals may mean that he would be inclined to pull the trigger if he feels it is for the best...............

[Stormshrug]

I expect it'd depend a lot on the individual and the situation. That said, Space Marines are, categorically, killers. This is true even if you completely ignore influence of the Inquisition upon Deathwatch marines. Space Marines exist only to do mean, ugly things, mostly to other sentient individuals, and generally, they like it. Brutality is part of their way of life, and to some extent, it's to be expected that they'd have to kill people who didn't necessarily deserve it. Traitor Guardsmen, for instance, often don't choose to turn traitor, and in many cases may not even know that their superior officers have gone renegade. It's still up to a Space Marine to put these loyal, well-meaning soldiers down, for the good of the Imperium.

 

Of course, there are cases where the institutional evil of the Ecclesiarchy goes too far even for the Angels of Death. The aftermath of Angron's invasion of Armageddon, in which entire legions of Guardsmen who had heroically held the planet from the daemonic invaders were slain or sent into forced labor drove Logan Grimnar to challenge the High Lords of Terra on their decision.

 

As I said at the start, it would really come down to the individual and the situation. Space Wolves as a whole tend to be more humanistic than many other chapters, and put far less stress on rules than personal honor, but don't forget that all Astartes are, at their core, killers.

 

-Stormshrugr

[calgar101]

One Ultramarine does not represent the entire chapter....

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Of course, there are cases where the institutional evil of the Ecclesiarchy goes too far even for the Angels of Death. The aftermath of Angron's invasion of Armageddon, in which entire legions of Guardsmen who had heroically held the planet from the daemonic invaders were slain or sent into forced labor drove Logan Grimnar to challenge the High Lords of Terra on their decision.

 

That's the Inquisition, not the Ecclesiarchy.

[Hfran Morkai]

The Space Wolves do what they think is right, not what someone (especially someone outside of their Chapter, and therefore likely not earned their respect) orders them to. There are multiple instances in our fluff of Wolves disobeying orders from on high because they don't feel right.

 

If the innocents needed to die in the Wolf's eye then he wouldn't hesitate.

[Fellblades]

I think any Space Wolf seconded to the Deathwatch would realize that they signed up for shadow ops, stuff that isn't exactly pretty or in line with our sense of honor. At the core, a Space Wolf is still a Space Marine, and they serve the Imperium's needs. While we are definitely one of the more humane chapters, a Space Wolf would carry out any commands given to them while in the Deathwatch

[the Fell Hand]

I think it depends on which "version" you follow. If you use GW straight fluff, the SW may disobey due to a personal code of honor. However for a warrior, a soldier, it is dishonorable to disobey the leader you respect. So yeah GW-wise it could go either way.

 

However, if you follow the "Prospero Burns" fluff, yeah, they were told to kill their own battle brothers and did it, because it was their orders. I would think killing your brother, innocent or guilty, to potentially save the world (so to speak) would be harder than killing innocents who could influence the safety of millions or billions.

[clanfield]

in the grey knight codex it discribes how the wolves put a spaner in the works at first battle for armagedon by helping some people hide/escape much to the inq upset (yes i know ward fluff but it fits)

[Beef]

in the grey knight codex it discribes how the wolves put a spaner in the works at first battle for armagedon by helping some people hide/escape much to the inq upset (yes i know ward fluff but it fits)

 

 

Exactly, Sw can disobey when they want to, I suppose the armageddon thing was more down to Grimnar who seems very honourable. Like others have said I guess it depends on the individual in question. I have no doubt that if killing one innocent would save many others a SW would do it without hesitation. Howver if they were told to kill innocenst just because the =I= did not want any witness's then that might be another thing altogether

[Adarul Greystalker]

When the Great Wolf broke with the Inquisition in the aftermath of the First War for Armageddon it was due to what he saw as unduly harsh punishment meted out with little good reason to those who had proven themselves honorable and valiant. Even worse than that, he had to stand idly by as those he had fought beside were sent off to concentration camps or put to the sword, so it's clear how he might see that as an offense to his personal honor. This clearly demonstrates the chapter's sense of honor, and it could be extrapolated to mean that Grimnar and the Space Wolves object to the harsh treatment of civilians everywhere and at all times, but that might not necessarily be correct.

 

In Prospero Burns, the Sixth Legion is depicted as being ruthless and willing to do whatever it takes whenever it takes to get the job done. Their methods were extreme and there can be no doubt that they often caused civilian casualties. It's important to note here, however, that they did not use such extreme methods unless they were deployed with complete and total leave to complete the mission at any cost, and this was only done when the mission was of vital importance. Remember, the Sixth Legion is self-described as thriving in the moment where action must be taken to ensure survival - in other words, they exist to do the things that must be done, no matter what that may be. Those are the hard facts of a life on Fenris, after all.

 

Sometimes such necessity comes into conflict with one's honor, however. And that's the kind of dilemma we're referring to here. How do you reconcile faithfulness to the kind of duty described in Prospero Burns with the adherence to personal honor that was so important to the Great Wolf after Armageddon? Consider how Russ acted when ordered to attack Prospero, knowing that coming to blows with his own brother and ally was not an honorable thing, even if Magnus had brought dishonor on himself first. Russ tried more than once to avoid the conflict and tried to give Magnus every chance to repent, but in the end he did what he knew had to be done. I think that most Space Wolves would do the same or at least something similar. If confronted with innocent witnesses who could not be allowed to tell their stories, I think they would look for a way to avoid harming them, but if none was forthcoming, they would grudgingly do their hard duty. They wouldn't enjoy it, but they would know that it had to be done, and they probably wouldn't feel much remorse for it, if any. Now if they were ordered to kill civilians for no reason or on a whim, I highly doubt they would comply. The fact that the Space Wolves send marines to the Deathwatch does suggest that they are perfectly willing to follow the Inquisition's orders most of the time, but all it takes is a look at our chapter's history to realize that we don't always do what we're told.

[Spacefrisian]

I think a space wolf would be far too happy in killing civilians.......if they came from a Dark Angels recruiting planet or successor planet ^_^

 

 

Oh how little you know about the relationship between Spacewolves and Dark Angels.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I'll repeat my answer here.

 

When a chapter willingly hands over a Marine to the Inquisition and have that Mairne specially trained by the Inqusition, I would expect those Marines to follow the orders of that organization while in the Deathwatch. It's the Deathwatch, dirty work is expected, it's black ops. Any Chapter should understand that giving their Astartes to the Inqusition would mean that dirty, nasty work would be done.

 

Otherwise why would the Inqusition take into the Deatchwatch if those Marines don't follow orders from the Inqusition?

 

Yeah, if the Wolves were a nuisance from previous DW missions, they'd stop asking for recruits from them.

 

 

in the grey knight codex it discribes how the wolves put a spaner in the works at first battle for armagedon by helping some people hide/escape much to the inq upset (yes i know ward fluff but it fits)

 

 

Exactly, Sw can disobey when they want to, I suppose the armageddon thing was more down to Grimnar who seems very honourable. Like others have said I guess it depends on the individual in question. I have no doubt that if killing one innocent would save many others a SW would do it without hesitation. Howver if they were told to kill innocenst just because the =I= did not want any witness's then that might be another thing altogether

 

I think it is different between a Chapter and an individual. It is much easier to tell the Quis to get lost when your Chapter Master says so and you have 1000 of your brothers with you, compared to being one Wolf amidst other Marines who are following orders.

 

Wolves wouldn't get time in the DW if they were pains in the neck.

[Captain Idaho]

Here is my reply from the same discussion the Ultramarines forum:

 

The character of the Ultramarines is actually quite complex, despite what stereotypes are held of them. They try to save humanity where possible, rather than just defeat their enemies (there is numerous references of this in 40K novels and established studio material) yet will also have a broader view of the whole picture than most Chapters, hence we get circumstances where they appear to go against their philosophy of protecting Imperial citizens.

 

The lower ranking the Ultramarine, the easier a decision is for them, since they can follow their orders over their personal moral guidelines, but as they ascend the heirarchy of the Chapter they are able to think freely and consider their options, which is when their morals and personal emotions conflict with orders which may be distasteful.

 

As an example we consider Ventris in Warriors of Ultramar; he was particularly upset about sacrificing planets of the Imperium to slow down the Tyranids, yet it was explained to him that Calgar would consider the request as he would choose the best option available to complete their mission.

 

Anyway, it is debateable what people consider to be neccessary. Likely, if you are applying our own social values on Space Marines you won't approve of such totalitarian methods as detailed in this story. However, if you consider what a Space Marine is (I.E. the whole psycho-indoctrination thing and their priorities) you have to expect their actions to be reflected in what occurs in this story.

 

"Realistically", it should have been a minority of Space Marines who opposed the order rather than a single Ultramarine following the order. It's a case of the author applying too much of our own morals on the Space Marines rather than considering what the likely morals the Space Marines would hold. Common mistake with writing, but understandable since many authors are concerned with identifying with their characters and like to force personality into Space Marines artificially since they want to write a good story first and adhere to established background second

 

Basically we have to judge Space Marines by their standards and that of the Imperium, not our own. Of course, we gravitate to those Chapters which we have empathy with, hence why the main exceptions, Space Wolves most notably, find this particularly distasteful. Space Wolves have a mirror of our own judgement of moral conventions, so it is entirely fitting they and their fan base in the real world dislike callous actions out of duty.

 

I do think the authors of novels put too much humanity into Space Marines. It should definitely be a minority of Space Marines in a unit of Deathwatch who disregard an order like this, rather than the other way round. But then, like I said above, authors like to empathise with their characters to build a good story, so accuracy to established character of Space Marines is alot looser than it should.

[ravenguard2010]

I think it's really interesting that this has come up... A month or two ago someone posted a fan-fiction that portrayed an Ultra gunning down civilians and a few of the Ultra players on here took offence to the idea. I think, as tempting as it is to view your army as being bastions of morality and stoic opposers to the murder of the innocent, Astartes are fundamentally genetically engineered killing machines made to follow orders. I've not read the text but it sounds like a prime example of that, albeit particularly murky orders considering this is in a Deathwatch situation.

[Captain Idaho]

I think it's really interesting that this has come up... A month or two ago someone posted a fan-fiction that portrayed an Ultra gunning down civilians and a few of the Ultra players on here took offence to the idea. I think, as tempting as it is to view your army as being bastions of morality and stoic opposers to the murder of the innocent, Astartes are fundamentally genetically engineered killing machines made to follow orders. I've not read the text but it sounds like a prime example of that, albeit particularly murky orders considering this is in a Deathwatch situation.

 

Exactly. Marines are not fluffy bunny rabits. Only very few of them will be "humane" in the sense we understand.

[Jonny Wolf]

I don't care how 'special' a person (marine or otherwise) is. When a chubby chump bureaucrat tells a true warrior to start killing innocents...hmm...it's a hard pill swallow. Sure a marine is highly specialized killing machine, but they're NOT automatons, non-thinking robots without a sole or "SENSE OF HONOR."

 

As a person that has served in the military for 20+ years and been in some real world crazy, questionable moments, you really see the truth of a man's worth and the 'Hollywood' depiction of soldiers simply obeying their superior officers and kiling civilians is a Streeeetttcchhhhh.

 

My two cent's, but I think with the fluff being...well, being fluff and it's more than likely written by someone with literally no real life experience in this matter to gauge their compass.

 

Bottom line: I think ANY true would hold his manhood (honor) cheap if he killed innocents simply to obey orders. (Grey Knights (Ward) notwithstanding).

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I don't care how 'special' a person (marine or otherwise) is. When a chubby chump bureaucrat tells a true warrior to start killing innocents...hmm...it's a hard pill swallow. Sure a marine is highly specialized killing machine, but they're NOT automatons, non-thinking robots without a sole or "SENSE OF HONOR."

 

As a person that has served in the military for 20+ years and been in some real world crazy, questionable moments, you really see the truth of a man's worth and the 'Hollywood' depiction of soldiers simply obeying their superior officers and kiling civilians is a Streeeetttcchhhhh.

 

My two cent's, but I think with the fluff being...well, being fluff and it's more than likely written by someone with literally no real life experience in this matter to gauge their compass.

 

Bottom line: I think ANY true would hold his manhood (honor) cheap if he killed innocents simply to obey orders. (Grey Knights (Ward) notwithstanding).

 

But they are not men. They are not from the 21st Century. Grimdark^TM is the setting. The civilians are not killed for fun but for a purpose. See how even a sniff of information on our RL news channels gets us all exited and twittering, and that is just about sport or fashion or something else that isn't threatening our survival.

 

Grimdark^TM isn't actually a setting that I super love, but it is what 40K is based in. You can't successfully overlap our morals onto a setting where people [psykers] are used to fuel the Emperor's life as an everyday occurrence, if you catch my drift.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I think a space wolf would be far too happy in killing civilians.......if they came from a Dark Angels recruiting planet or successor planet B)

 

 

Oh how little you know about the relationship between Spacewolves and Dark Angels.

 

Enlighten me :confused:

[Captain Idaho]

I don't care how 'special' a person (marine or otherwise) is. When a chubby chump bureaucrat tells a true warrior to start killing innocents...hmm...it's a hard pill swallow. Sure a marine is highly specialized killing machine, but they're NOT automatons, non-thinking robots without a sole or "SENSE OF HONOR."

 

As a person that has served in the military for 20+ years and been in some real world crazy, questionable moments, you really see the truth of a man's worth and the 'Hollywood' depiction of soldiers simply obeying their superior officers and kiling civilians is a Streeeetttcchhhhh.

 

My two cent's, but I think with the fluff being...well, being fluff and it's more than likely written by someone with literally no real life experience in this matter to gauge their compass.

 

Bottom line: I think ANY true would hold his manhood (honor) cheap if he killed innocents simply to obey orders. (Grey Knights (Ward) notwithstanding).

 

You are applying your own morals to beings which are psychoindoctrinated to be killing machines in a time where the extinction of man is ever present.

 

Whilst I concur with your sentiment, it isn't one shared by everyone on this planet, let alone the 40K universe and their super humans.

[Prot]

I think before even debating such a question, you have to ask yourself: Would the inquisition even bother asking a SW into the service of Deathwatch?

 

I'd say probably not... too volatile (in reputation), and probably too independent thinking. I would think the Inquisition probably has a whole host of criteria that Wolves have trouble meeting (mostly of an obedience nature.)

[Hfran Morkai]

I think before even debating such a question, you have to ask yourself: Would the inquisition even bother asking a SW into the service of Deathwatch?

 

I'd say probably not... too volatile (in reputation), and probably too independent thinking. I would think the Inquisition probably has a whole host of criteria that Wolves have trouble meeting (mostly of an obedience nature.)

 

An interesting point but I believe a Wolf's skills could be useful among the Deathwatch and that is why they serve. It's the reason the Deathwatch is made of multiple chapters.

[Bikeninja]

Well we already have books with a Space Wolf as a member of the Deathwatch. One of McNeils Uriel Ventris books.

 

I forget this book as well, its one of the Heresy books, maybe the first anthology. Anyway you see a small faction of Space Wolves rally a planet to fight off a Dark Eldar slave raid. At the end of the book the Wolves make a comment about this planet joining the Imperium. When the planet leaders say no, the Wolves kill them and bombard the planet from space.

 

So yes, in my opinion if they were members of the Deathwatch they would take out whomever was targeted for whatever reason. They would not like it though.

[Gree]

I don't care how 'special' a person (marine or otherwise) is. When a chubby chump bureaucrat tells a true warrior to start killing innocents...hmm...it's a hard pill swallow. Sure a marine is highly specialized killing machine, but they're NOT automatons, non-thinking robots without a sole or "SENSE OF HONOR."

 

As a person that has served in the military for 20+ years and been in some real world crazy, questionable moments, you really see the truth of a man's worth and the 'Hollywood' depiction of soldiers simply obeying their superior officers and kiling civilians is a Streeeetttcchhhhh.

 

My two cent's, but I think with the fluff being...well, being fluff and it's more than likely written by someone with literally no real life experience in this matter to gauge their compass.

 

The situation is not the same as you compare it. Astartes don't have things like the geneva convention, or conventional morality to worry about.

 

And it's not just some ''chubby chump bureaucrat''. It's their superior officer, an Inquisitor. These chapters willingly and knowingly sighed their Marines over to the Inqusition's service knowing that dirty, nasty black ops stuff would be done. The Inquisition expects these orders to be obeyed, otherwise why would they bother accepting disobient Astartes into their service? Especially in vital black ops stuff.

 

Bottom line: I think ANY true would hold his manhood (honor) cheap if he killed innocents simply to obey orders. (Grey Knights (Ward) notwithstanding).

 

That happens all the time in 40k and the Space Wolves are no exception if we go by Prospero Burns.

 

I think before even debating such a question, you have to ask yourself: Would the inquisition even bother asking a SW into the service of Deathwatch?

 

I'd say probably not... too volatile (in reputation), and probably too independent thinking. I would think the Inquisition probably has a whole host of criteria that Wolves have trouble meeting (mostly of an obedience nature.)

 

Have you ever read the Deathwatch book? Wolves are one of the main chapters you can play.