Killing innocents just cos the =I- says so.

[Prot]

Well we already have books with a Space Wolf as a member of the Deathwatch. One of McNeils Uriel Ventris books.

 

I didn't realize that. Unfortunately that's one series I haven't followed. But I have read Deathwatch novels... and I would still personally stand by my statement, and just because a Wolves member is in Deathwatch it doesn't make it a rule, but perhaps the exception.

 

I mean I'm sure if you look hard enough you could find an Ultramarine that wouldn't mindlessly follow Inquisition instruction BUT that again, IMHO, would be the exception rather than the rule. (Not to offend Ultra fans!)

 

I was thinking about the aspect of asking a SW to join Deathwatch, and being a Wolves fan if I put myself in the shoes of an Inquisitor, why would I want the services of a SW? One of two reasons: To eliminate an Astartes threat, or if the mission required high tracking skills, or something similar that is _extremely_ well suited to Wolves... but that is it. Otherwise, I would look elsewhere to a much more 'obedient' Astartes organization.

 

Let's not forget, aside from the Templars, the Wolves do represent something that the Inquisition is uncomfortable with and this has been mentioned a few times. I think that mentality would trickle down to DeathWatch recruitment as well.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Only real answer is you can only vouch for what you do, If you were that space wolf you could say no, If Hitler was that space wo.......*BANG BANG BANG!*

[Prot]

Only real answer is you can only vouch for what you do, If you were that space wolf you could say no, If Hitler was that space wo.......*BANG BANG BANG!*

 

I get your point, but let's please be careful with the direction of this conversation.

[Spacefrisian]

I think a space wolf would be far too happy in killing civilians.......if they came from a Dark Angels recruiting planet or successor planet :P

 

 

Oh how little you know about the relationship between Spacewolves and Dark Angels.

 

Enlighten me ^_^

 

 

Both Chapters respect each other due to friendship that developed between Russ and the Lion.

[Forté]

It wouldn't suprise me if Space Wolves were on the bottom of the 'chapters to recruit from' list. Those who train the deathwatch teams must hate working with those who will argue commands if its felt to be a bad judgement.

 

Most of the main codex chapters are pretty much brainwashed with the chain of command so will go along with it.

[Beef]

I forget this book as well, its one of the Heresy books, maybe the first anthology. Anyway you see a small faction of Space Wolves rally a planet to fight off a Dark Eldar slave raid. At the end of the book the Wolves make a comment about this planet joining the Imperium. When the planet leaders say no, the Wolves kill them and bombard the planet from space.

 

So yes, in my opinion if they were members of the Deathwatch they would take out whomever was targeted for whatever reason. They would not like it though.

 

 

in that short story the SW character Bulleye was not happy he had to gun down men he faught along side. He did so with a heavy heart. He was not emotionally devoid when he did it. Yes he understood why he had to do it and carried out his orders,.

 

SW would be a very good addition to a Deathwatch team as others have said due to their tracking and supiors sences compared to other marines. Yes they would be harder to control and obey orders but that what you get for letting a wolf into your house. Finger get bitten off.

[bjornsval]

On the subject of Prospero Burns. You have to realize even though the SW had a job to do. They did not find any joy in what they were about to do. Had Prospero been a xenos planet,they might not feel remorse about what had to be done. Russ and the wolves knew that billions would die on Prospero,that is why he was trying to get Magnus to surrender peacfully. Russ didnt want to kill the entire population,but Magnus left him no choice to prosecute the orders given to him against the Thousand Sons.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

also, concering the 30k Wolves...

 

IT WAS 10,000 YEARS AGO!

 

it is very clear that the Chapter has changed its identity drastically during this very lengthy time period. we still retain certain traits, but the core role of the Space Marine (and the Wolves by extension) has changed. We are no longer the massive crusading army discovering the galaxy.

We have learnt that the galaxy is untamable, and wants to kill/enslave/eat/whatever the living crap out of us. We now fight to defend the Imperium we have. We fight so there might be a tomorrow, and a day after...

 

on the topic at hand, i dont believe a Wolf would kill a innocent during a DW mission. the act would violate their personal code of honor too deeply, even if they saw the nessescity of the deed. i do believe the Inquisitor forming kill teams will try and add as different types of personality as possible to counter this though, so there is a cold blooded killer on the team to "pick up the slack."

 

WLK

[Gree]

Well we already have books with a Space Wolf as a member of the Deathwatch. One of McNeils Uriel Ventris books.

 

I didn't realize that. Unfortunately that's one series I haven't followed. But I have read Deathwatch novels... and I would still personally stand by my statement, and just because a Wolves member is in Deathwatch it doesn't make it a rule, but perhaps the exception.

 

Read the Deathwatch rulebook, the Space Wolves are one of the main chapters you can choose from. I've already stated this before.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

also, concering the 30k Wolves...

 

IT WAS 10,000 YEARS AGO!

 

it is very clear that the Chapter has changed its identity drastically during this very lengthy time period. we still retain certain traits, but the core role of the Space Marine (and the Wolves by extension) has changed. We are no longer the massive crusading army discovering the galaxy.

We have learnt that the galaxy is untamable, and wants to kill/enslave/eat/whatever the living crap out of us. We now fight to defend the Imperium we have. We fight so there might be a tomorrow, and a day after...

 

on the topic at hand, i dont believe a Wolf would kill a innocent during a DW mission. the act would violate their personal code of honor too deeply, even if they saw the nessescity of the deed. i do believe the Inquisitor forming kill teams will try and add as different types of personality as possible to counter this though, so there is a cold blooded killer on the team to "pick up the slack."

 

WLK

 

Oh, so Wolves have given up and joined the Ultramarines ;) . Well I guess that is one less invite to The Eternal Crusader Christmas bash that I need sending out then.

 

"Pick up the slack". So how much do you think a Space Wolf would weigh then?

[Prot]

Well we already have books with a Space Wolf as a member of the Deathwatch. One of McNeils Uriel Ventris books.

 

I didn't realize that. Unfortunately that's one series I haven't followed. But I have read Deathwatch novels... and I would still personally stand by my statement, and just because a Wolves member is in Deathwatch it doesn't make it a rule, but perhaps the exception.

 

Read the Deathwatch rulebook, the Space Wolves are one of the main chapters you can choose from. I've already stated this before.

 

 

Yes, and I read your statement. It's a rule book. So what? They want Space Wolves players to adopt the game system so they don't alienate one of their largest target markets?

 

I'm not saying you don't have a point, but I think this right here is why it's largely unresolvable. The magic of the 40K universe is that it is not written in stone and obviously you chose to interpret your answer from a different source than I do. I can site a few sources that say the Inquisition is a little worried about chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars that kind of do their own thing... and to be frank, if they weren't so massive, and largely successful, it's been hinted the Inquisition would probably scrutinize those chapters a little more closely. But in what I've read, it seems it's best to... let sleeping dogs lie. (pun intended) :wink:

[Gree]

Yes, and I read your statement. It's a rule book. So what? They want Space Wolves players to adopt the game system so they don't alienate one of their largest target markets?

 

The marketing reasons don't matter, only the fluff, which the Deathwatch rulebook has.

 

I'm not saying you don't have a point, but I think this right here is why it's largely unresolvable. The magic of the 40K universe is that it is not written in stone and obviously you chose to interpret your answer from a different source than I do. I can site a few sources that say the Inquisition is a little worried about chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars that kind of do their own thing... and to be frank, if they weren't so massive, and largely successful, it's been hinted the Inquisition would probably scrutinize those chapters a little more closely. But in what I've read, it seems it's best to... let sleeping dogs lie. (pun intended) :wink:

 

I am fully aware of that.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

also, concering the 30k Wolves...

 

IT WAS 10,000 YEARS AGO!

 

it is very clear that the Chapter has changed its identity drastically during this very lengthy time period. we still retain certain traits, but the core role of the Space Marine (and the Wolves by extension) has changed. We are no longer the massive crusading army discovering the galaxy.

We have learnt that the galaxy is untamable, and wants to kill/enslave/eat/whatever the living crap out of us. We now fight to defend the Imperium we have. We fight so there might be a tomorrow, and a day after...

 

on the topic at hand, i dont believe a Wolf would kill a innocent during a DW mission. the act would violate their personal code of honor too deeply, even if they saw the nessescity of the deed. i do believe the Inquisitor forming kill teams will try and add as different types of personality as possible to counter this though, so there is a cold blooded killer on the team to "pick up the slack."

 

WLK

 

Oh, so Wolves have given up and joined the Ultramarines :wink: . Well I guess that is one less invite to The Eternal Crusader Christmas bash that I need sending out then.

 

"Pick up the slack". So how much do you think a Space Wolf would weigh then?

 

Wolves joined the UM?! impossible, we were loyal during the Heresy (JOKING! for the love of the all-father its a JOKE)

 

and i think the role of Imperial Space Marines is largely defensive in the setting, which is what makes the Templars so unique...they are so stubborn and hateraid fueled they dont see or care of the unachievableness of their task. they simply do.

 

WLK

[NightrawenII]

I don't care how 'special' a person (marine or otherwise) is. When a chubby chump bureaucrat tells a true warrior to start killing innocents...hmm...it's a hard pill swallow. Sure a marine is highly specialized killing machine, but they're NOT automatons, non-thinking robots without a sole or "SENSE OF HONOR."

 

As a person that has served in the military for 20+ years and been in some real world crazy, questionable moments, you really see the truth of a man's worth and the 'Hollywood' depiction of soldiers simply obeying their superior officers and kiling civilians is a Streeeetttcchhhhh.

 

My two cent's, but I think with the fluff being...well, being fluff and it's more than likely written by someone with literally no real life experience in this matter to gauge their compass.

 

Bottom line: I think ANY true would hold his manhood (honor) cheap if he killed innocents simply to obey orders. (Grey Knights (Ward) notwithstanding).

Two words my friend: Waffen-SS.

 

I think before even debating such a question, you have to ask yourself: Would the inquisition even bother asking a SW into the service of Deathwatch?

 

I'd say probably not... too volatile (in reputation), and probably too independent thinking. I would think the Inquisition probably has a whole host of criteria that Wolves have trouble meeting (mostly of an obedience nature.)

 

Have you ever read the Deathwatch book? Wolves are one of the main chapters you can play.

The 'ole Deathwatch rules says that all chapters including Space Wolves and Blood Angels serve in DW. But I do agree with Prot, the SW nature will be problematic.

[Captain Idaho]

*shrugs* it's just inconsistancy we get in the Space Wolf fluff unforunately. They are independent and have strained relationships with the Inquisition, yet are proud and shy away from no-one. Unfortunately the fluff has them joining the Deathwatch despite not being on good terms with the Inquisition and hiding Thunderwolves away from everyone in either:

 

1) fear of discovery (very un-Space Wolf-like)

 

or;

 

2) they are ashamed - which begs the question why they would ride them if they were ashamed of doing so!

 

Silly really.

 

However, like has been mentioned above, the Space Wolves have a sizable community and authors care less for consistancy when making a cool story than what the fan base might prefer. The Space Wolves will always be in every story's Deathwatch team for these reasons.

[Prot]

Unfortunately the fluff has them joining the Deathwatch despite not being on good terms with the Inquisition and hiding Thunderwolves away from everyone in either:

 

1) fear of discovery (very un-Space Wolf-like)

 

or;

 

2) they are ashamed - which begs the question why they would ride them if they were ashamed of doing so!

 

3) Wolves can be loners... lone wolves, etc. I think it's a reflection of a pack mentality... "You're not one of us." I don't think TWC are 'ashamed' or 'fear' discovery. They don't want to be seen by someone who isn't one of their own, therefore, they aren't going to be seen. It could just be that simple.

[Simo429]

If they were hiding the beer I'd rip their throats out with my teeth

[Prot]

If they were hiding the beer I'd rip their throats out with my teeth

 

Wow. You just inadvertently gave the Inquisition the perfect method of pulling Wolves out of the forest. :lol:

[Fang of Morkai]

Personally I do not see a problem with a SW being in the Deathwatch. It depends on the individual, just look at Wolfblades. Most are outcasts or misfits and do not fit with the rest of the chapter. Same can be said with the Deathwatch. Should a Space Wolf be asked to gun down innocents, he will carry it out but likely give some lip to the boss when he gets back.

 

SW: "Hey boss! Another sucessful mission, good thing we bravely slaughtered innocent imperial citizens we were supposed to protect so you can maintain some secrecy fetish."

UM: "Speak with respect to the Inquisitor!"

SW: "Bite me papa Smurf."

 

From another point of view, a SW who shames himself by service to the DW will likely stay rather than return to his brothers carrying that shame with him.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

*shrugs* it's just inconsistancy we get in the Space Wolf fluff unforunately. They are independent and have strained relationships with the Inquisition, yet are proud and shy away from no-one. Unfortunately the fluff has them joining the Deathwatch despite not being on good terms with the Inquisition and hiding Thunderwolves away from everyone in either:

 

However, like has been mentioned above, the Space Wolves have a sizable community and authors care less for consistancy when making a cool story than what the fan base might prefer. The Space Wolves will always be in every story's Deathwatch team for these reasons.

 

It is one of a few:

 

Wolves hate sorcerers and are immune to magick, yet have fearsome magick themselves. Dwarves are one and not the other.

They are irreligious, yet have 'not-Chaplains' that inspire the same bonus that is the domain of zealotry and fervour.

They are renowned ferocious warriors, set in Grimdark^TMland yet good friends with the common man, when Ultramarines, being far less ferocious, are happy to kill the plebs.

They drink and horse around, yet are better warriors than the disciplined Ultramarines.

 

GW comes up with a milieu, Grimdark^TM and then undoes it for the Wolves. They are the cake and eat it faction :D .

[maverik_girl]

What better way to keep tabs on EVERYONE, than join an elite unit of warriors from all different chapters. What better way to establish "valuable intel" to keep your enemies close (okay well not completely enemies with the Inquisition, you get the idea) and keeping an eye on them, than the wolves. The wolf blades themselves serve as the eyes and ears of the great wolf. With connections from loyal navigators, that manage many fleets in the Imperium of man a HUGE resource of intelligence right there!

 

As for killing the innocents, Batman said it best "CIRCUMSTANCE, DICTATE ACTION" I may be a wolf, but it doesn't mean I have to save you! accidents happen, and to keep our oaths in serving mankind some allowances are deemed necessary. If I won't kill you out of honor or principle, I have no issue nor would I lower myself to that standard but it doesn't mean my Deathwatch brothers wont hesitant to kill innocents. I just wont choose to do it.. it's a hard choice, but we do it everyday. Especially in the 40K world of day to day. Brother I won't kill this innocent, but it doesn't mean he can't land his face on my fist, or you push me towards an innocent while my wolf claws are held out. I have spoken! to the tavern!!!!!!! Mav girl OUT :D

[Lord Ragnarok]

This will not turn into a Thunderwolf debate. Please drop it.

 

 

My opinion is that "it depends". A wolf with deathwatch, in effect has a new "pack" and my not be as resistant as they would be with their chapter brothers. That said, due to armaggeddon 1 and other shenanigans, this could potentially be a very volatile situation which could result in a dead =][= or sw.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

*shrugs* it's just inconsistancy we get in the Space Wolf fluff unforunately. They are independent and have strained relationships with the Inquisition, yet are proud and shy away from no-one. Unfortunately the fluff has them joining the Deathwatch despite not being on good terms with the Inquisition and hiding Thunderwolves away from everyone in either:

 

However, like has been mentioned above, the Space Wolves have a sizable community and authors care less for consistancy when making a cool story than what the fan base might prefer. The Space Wolves will always be in every story's Deathwatch team for these reasons.

 

It is one of a few:

 

Wolves hate sorcerers and are immune to magick, yet have fearsome magick themselves. Dwarves are one and not the other.

and here, the Wolves personal belief on psykers is where that fine fine line exists, separating our Rune Priests from chaos sorcerers. We channel the powers of the warp, they embrace it, seek favors from it, and damn themselves by doing so.

They are irreligious, yet have 'not-Chaplains' that inspire the same bonus that is the domain of zealotry and fervour.

We have faith, traditions and folklore that dictate how we live and govern our actions. its religion without the dogma![/i]

They are renowned ferocious warriors, set in Grimdark^TMland yet good friends with the common man, when Ultramarines, being far less ferocious, are happy to kill the plebs.

Our warrior code and beliefs from our Primarch teach us different lessions than the Sons of Guilliman, or any other Space Marine. They are no less honorable than we, in their own way.[/i]

They drink and horse around, yet are better warriors than the disciplined Ultramarines.

That is entirely opinion. Some here believe so, some in the UM subforum believe otherwise. Now if you said Black Templar...[/i]

 

GW comes up with a milieu, Grimdark^TM and then undoes it for the Wolves. They are the cake and eat it faction :D .

Says the army which cant decide what edition to play! You mix the best of 4th and 5th! just wait till ward gets ahold of you, you'll be allying with squats against the tau or something else pretty stupid![/i]

 

as always Willy, all in good fun.

 

WLK

[Fellblades]

Ouch that red text hurts the eyes ><

[Tybrus]

As said before it comes down to the person. Though in 40K don't forget one of the main ways a marine (Of any chapter) becomes a marine and its two simple words "Hypno Conditioning". Now, as the Deathwatch teams must know about all the xenos filth in the grim dark, I can well assume that on coming over to the "watch" you get a fast forward course on everything xenos using the same two little words to get a new recruit ready for the field. Think of it like training an elite warrior gets today; jump school, ranger school, E&A courses, Mountain warfare school, etc. Now then as we are giving a flash course if you will, why not reinforce the marines already strong training to follow orders. Then lets not forget the induction rites that enforce that you are now the only line of defense between the alien filth & Imperium.

 

So all that said, lets talk about a non-death watch Space Wolf. Would they follow orders to kill a civi? I say for no reason, of course not, but in 40k its never for no reason. If they did decide they needed to take a stand over the order, I think it would be more to due with matters of honor debt owed to those they are ordered to kill. So if the order is to slay the Guard unit you have gone through hell with, then I doubt it. (Think of the Green Brets in Vietnam and the Montagnard.) Now, lets say some SEALs are ordered to go in a clear a location that is hiding the number 1 most wanted man in the world...well someone is getting shot in the head, even if they hide behind a wife...