General Chaos Questions

[Evisser]

A friend introduced me to 40k a while back and I'm now thinking of getting into it. Chaos Space Marines caught my eye as well as the assault/mech style of play.

 

First of all my knowledge of the game is not that good I know the fluff and all but all the the stats are a bit over my head and I currently don't have the funds to buy a rule book.

 

So to start off can CSM make a good assault army? It seems to me that they could but they would be out shined by armies of similar style like mech ba/bt. I was looking around at the forums and noticed the generalized build of DPs, PMs, and zerkers with rhinos for the squads and some oblits. Are there any other options besides this to have a good competitive army.

 

Furthermore how to berserkers fair against death company and other similar assault units.

 

Many of these questions stem from me not understanding the stats of units and not knowing the general meta game right now so any advice that can be given would be much appreciated.

[Lady_Canoness]

Without getting into stats, Chaos Marines can make one of the best assaulting armies out there, and no, you don't need to run Daemon Princes, Berzerkers AND plague marines to be able to win. Anyone who tells you otherwsie is sadly lacking in imagination.

 

A berzerker charge can level most units, and they can go toe-to-toe with just about anyone with a fair chance of winning (assuming you have a champion in the squad with either a power fist or a power axe). They will mince any non-specialist assault unit, and can be counted on to dent even the likes of a death company, wytches, or whatever else they run into.

And that is coming from one of our troop choices - you can build an army around these guys.

 

To me, Chaos favours an aggressive player more-so than a cautious player, so if your looking to charge the enemy lines and massacre many a units, then Chaos is probably a good fit for you.

[Master of fact]

Chaos are awesome! Do you need me delve further?

 

Ok i bite. Yesterday my 7 nurgle terminators were killed in one round of combat by 1 squad of zekers. I had to make 11 saves and rolled 8 1's on the dice!

 

Now that was cool to behold, that just should not happen. Chaos can give and take a beating as my plague marines then charged the unit of zerkers and levelled them!

[Sons of Horus]

Khorne Berzerkers are some of the best assault troops in the game. And we have Khârn...

[AoC]

Long story short, you can win with chaos, but if you want to be really effective, take sw/ba/bt instead, as they do it cheaper and better.

 

There is no alternative HQ choices that is as cost effective (well, some argue that summoned greater daemon is) as Slaaneshi DP.

 

There is no alternative support unit that is on par with oblits.

 

You can take plague marines instead of berzerkers. You can take also regular csm if it suit you fancy. You can take LR rush instead of the rhino rush list, but thats it.

 

Want many viable choices and decent chance of winning ? Take different army.

[Brother Ambroz]

Long story short, you can win with chaos, but if you want to be really effective, take sw/ba/bt instead, as they do it cheaper and better.

 

There is no alternative HQ choices that is as cost effective (well, some argue that summoned greater daemon is) as Slaaneshi DP.

 

There is no alternative support unit that is on par with oblits.

 

You can take plague marines instead of berzerkers. You can take also regular csm if it suit you fancy. You can take LR rush instead of the rhino rush list, but thats it.

 

Want many viable choices and decent chance of winning ? Take different army.

 

How about we tone it down with the negativity eh?

 

Chaos marines are a bit of a underpriced army (they're not elite and expensive like the Grey Knights), but they're not too bad if you like the fluff. For friendly games you can easily take some of the sub-par units and still win. For tourneys and the like, I'd go with the meta lists of DPs, oblits, PM and zerks because in those games you'd be facing much tougher armies. Really if you like what you see in the books about CSM then go for it.

[AoC]

Long story short, you can win with chaos, but if you want to be really effective, take sw/ba/bt instead, as they do it cheaper and better.

 

There is no alternative HQ choices that is as cost effective (well, some argue that summoned greater daemon is) as Slaaneshi DP.

 

There is no alternative support unit that is on par with oblits.

 

You can take plague marines instead of berzerkers. You can take also regular csm if it suit you fancy. You can take LR rush instead of the rhino rush list, but thats it.

 

Want many viable choices and decent chance of winning ? Take different army.

 

How about we tone it down with the negativity eh?

 

Chaos marines are a bit of a underpriced army (they're not elite and expensive like the Grey Knights), but they're not too bad if you like the fluff. For friendly games you can easily take some of the sub-par units and still win. For tourneys and the like, I'd go with the meta lists of DPs, oblits, PM and zerks because in those games you'd be facing much tougher armies. Really if you like what you see in the books about CSM then go for it.

I gave OP honest review of chaos codex, it's not negative, it's objective. It's really poor codex with not many good options, and even good ones are not so great.

 

@OP:Berzerkers are outclasses by Death Company, they cost more and are less effective in combat (they dont have feel no pain). Their saving grace is that they are scoring, and lack of rage (if you are in rhino it doesn't matter).

[Brother Ambroz]

Make due with what you have, because it'll be a long while yet before we get another dex. If you don't like playing it then don't play it. We have decent options, some of which are worse than other armies it's true but that's not going to change until we get another dex. Like I said before Evisser if you like chaos marines and are looking to play more casually then go for it. Play a small game with one squad against another see if you like it.

[Lady_Canoness]

I gave OP honest review of chaos codex, it's not negative, it's objective.

 

No its not. You gave a review of every whiner out there who points fingers at another codex and says 'I want that!'

 

For a new player, the last thing they need to hear is someone who says that everything is unbalanced and that the newest MEQ books are as good as the only MEQ books.

Sure our book is old, and sure it doesn't have no-brainer choices like Sang Priests or Thunderwolves, but sprinkling ashes on your head and self-flagellation are a little premature. Our book can support itself. It may lack flavour, but saying it can't compete is just copping out.

Win a game? It can compete.

 

Ask a Battle Sister player if they get all teary-eyed because other books have all the shiny new units while they've been sitting on the same book for 8 years.

[Artein]

Ask a Battle Sister player if they get all teary-eyed because other books have all the shiny new units while they've been sitting on the same book for 8 years.

Not anymore.

[Abyssel]

Necrons have been sitting for 10 years I do believe. Thought thats going to change soon.

 

CSM are an OK army. Daemon Princes are a good choice for HQ (can do everything everyone else can do for less)

 

Khârn is the CSM equivalent of Chuck Norris (I hate Norris jokes)

 

Our only competitive units would be zerks and PM's IMO, but if you run the CSM spam it's hilarious. I once ran a full noise marine army vs a green tide ork army and just had one hell of a sonic blast (excuse the pun :wallbash: )

 

Over all it is fun, competitive, well..it lacks in areas and there are some copy paste ideas that will always work. I use to love taking predators until I started to play with oblits and they just work better. You feel like you get jyped.

 

One BIG bonus for me is the customization with models. You can do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING with a CSM model and be able to rationalize it.

[AoC]

Make due with what you have, because it'll be a long while yet before we get another dex. If you don't like playing it then don't play it. We have decent options, some of which are worse than other armies it's true but that's not going to change until we get another dex. Like I said before Evisser if you like chaos marines and are looking to play more casually then go for it. Play a small game with one squad against another see if you like it.

So ? I stated above that chaos army is subpar for creating assault mech list, exactly what OP asked for.

 

I gave OP honest review of chaos codex, it's not negative, it's objective.

 

No its not. You gave a review of every whiner out there who points fingers at another codex and says 'I want that!'

 

For a new player, the last thing they need to hear is someone who says that everything is unbalanced and that the newest MEQ books are as good as the only MEQ books.

Sure our book is old, and sure it doesn't have no-brainer choices like Sang Priests or Thunderwolves, but sprinkling ashes on your head and self-flagellation are a little premature. Our book can support itself. It may lack flavour, but saying it can't compete is just copping out.

Win a game? It can compete.

 

Ask a Battle Sister player if they get all teary-eyed because other books have all the shiny new units while they've been sitting on the same book for 8 years.

 

Get a grip, chaos codex is what it is. It's not codex that have tons of viable builds, it have 2 good builds tops. Also, it have just no-brainer choices. Everything can win a game, but not every army out there have the same power level. Chaos is not high power level codex, it's not low power level either. OP have to keep it in mind if he want to play Chaos.

[Evisser]

Thanks for all the info, greatly appreciated. Clears up a lot. Another question I have is why does Chaos generally use termis for termicide and not as an actual fighting force with the rest of the army, or do they just not fit in well. Also if one is building an assault army would it be good to have lr's with the zerkers or do those take up too many points.

[AoC]

Thanks for all the info, greatly appreciated. Clears up a lot. Another question I have is why does Chaos generally use termis for termicide and not as an actual fighting force with the rest of the army, or do they just not fit in well. Also if one is building an assault army would it be good to have lr's with the zerkers or do those take up too many points.

Lack of good delivery system, and in land rider zerkers are most of the time better. Plus they have no granades (no smoke launchers either), so enemy can just camp cover.

[Evisser]

so it is lr over rhinos?

[Brother Ambroz]

Generally no it's not LR over rhinos because rhinos are 50 pts whereas a LR is 250+. Usually I only take a LR with a powerful/expensive HQ unit like Abbadon or Khârn the badass. Termies are generally bad because their upgrades aren't that good, they're not fearless, and any marks you put on them make them really expensive.

[daemonmind]

i would have to say that chosen arnt to bad i run 5 with plasma and out flank them. with a mark on them if im lucky to get good rolls and get them on the right side they can cause some problems. and then if my reserve rolls are ok for the turn after the mark provides a 6" no scatter zone.

 

but i must say for heavy support not much beats the oblits the wep choice is were its at las your opps tanks as you slowly walk to them then cannon his troops.

[Abyssel]

Termicide is useful because terminators can only upgrade to combiweapons for anti tank. combi meltas, deepstrike next to a tank, melta once, then die while trying to take something with you.

[Evisser]

So is having a HQ like Khârn or Abbadon in a lr with zerkers worth it over having 2 DPs or does that have to do with points, army composition, preferance, ect. A lot of these questions are so I can try to understand what works and what does not with Chaos because it seems that there are few units that actually synergize/work effectively in a Chaos army.

[daboarder]

I spent AGES (4 months) trying to come up with a nurgle list that I both liked and felt was fluffy. It finally came down with saying to mysel, I have all these cool units but you can't fit them all into every list. get a solid core, in my case 3 10XCSM, IoN dual plasma units in rhino's then add the flavoring. 6 terminators, sorcerer, 2 dreads with PC a defiler and 4 oblits.

 

some things to note however:

You here people go on and on about defilers, and yes they're the best we've got, but other codeci have better options (not more versatile but largely better)

Our power is definitely in the troops section so heavily invest there before moving onto "fun/utility" units.

And finally, I say pick a theme and then stick to it, yes you can cram full of PM's and KB's led by a slanneshi DP, but thats BORING and get really old really fast.

[Brom MKIV]

As a long time 40k player and a recent convert to chaos I can tell you the csm dex is not the most competitive list. That title likely goes to sw or ig, maybe even variations of ba's. If you plan on playing against nothing but these lists you will be somewhat limited in your army selection. That being said csm still have one of the coolest and most flexible lists around. Mixing daemons and marines is just win and obliterators still rank as one of the greatest heavy support options in all of 40k. I roll a word bearers army with larger unit(s) of chaos terminators, lesser daemons and csm's, a daemon prince and a jp lord with daemon weapon plus a defiler. It has the ability to compete with most lists, even if some battles are uphill. Dont be put off by whingers, much of this game still comes down to who's the better player.