Jaws Shooting Question

[Krablauch]

I have a question. I was recently playing a game against NIds. I wanted to shoot Jaws at a Gaunt, which was in line with a carnifex in cc with my guys behind him, so that I would kill the carnifex. My opponent said this was not possible because it should be treated like a template weapon. Is this true? Just wanted to see what the consensus was, or if I had missed something completely in the codex.

[Coverfire]

I believe it is okay as long as you target valid unit first.

 

As for the template arguement, the template must be placed without touching friendlies... but Jaws force your own troops to take an Initiative test too.

[MaveriK]

Your opponent is either ill-informed or is a cheat. Either way, you should challenge him in a duel, but not before you get yourself a glove and slap him silly to make the duel official. Next time someone questions your actions, kindly point out your Space Wolf codex to help clear things out. JAWS is a hairline, not a template. This is common knowledge to most players, even non-wolf players. CHALLENGE HIM TO A DUEL, by the monkey bars in high noon after recess! bring it on.

[Grimtooth]

I swear. GSP defends his title and you Canadians get all lippy!

[Wulfebane]

It's a template in that it is a straight line that hits everything in its path. Take a tape measure or one of those little red sticks (for LoS). They may be small in width, but they would still be considered templates for this purpose.

 

In dealing with cc, you've gotta remember that even though the models are literally stationary, it is assumed that they are moving in and around each other if they are in base contact, so even if the carnifex was on the outer ring of a cc group, it is considered to be surrounded by your troops.

 

That being said, if you hoped to hit the carnifex with Jaws, then your own troops in base contact with the carnifex would be hit with Jaws as well. Since you are not allowed to intentionally shoot into a close combat fight, and Jaws do not scatter, this scenario is not possible. (Rulebook pg. 40)

[MaveriK]

I swear. GSP defends his title and you Canadians get all lippy!

that was a boring fight... I'm a fan of any good fighter, USA, Brazilian or Canadian.. and my reply was just out of boredom ;p

[Grimtooth]

Hahahahahaha, yea I was just talking crap. Both of my Cesar Gracie favorites lost, Diaz and Shields. I was expecting Shields, but not Diaz.

 

Wulfen, Jaws does not care about normal restrictions after you have successfully hit the first model it has affected as long as that first model was valid. After that first model, any base that the line then goes through is forced to test.

 

There is no jumping around in cc that stops the line from passing through the carnifex.

 

Not a template weapon. Template is not even listed on the PSA profile.

[Fellblades]

It's a template in that it is a straight line that hits everything in its path. Take a tape measure or one of those little red sticks (for LoS). They may be small in width, but they would still be considered templates for this purpose.

 

In dealing with cc, you've gotta remember that even though the models are literally stationary, it is assumed that they are moving in and around each other if they are in base contact, so even if the carnifex was on the outer ring of a cc group, it is considered to be surrounded by your troops.

 

That being said, if you hoped to hit the carnifex with Jaws, then your own troops in base contact with the carnifex would be hit with Jaws as well. Since you are not allowed to intentionally shoot into a close combat fight, and Jaws do not scatter, this scenario is not possible. (Rulebook pg. 40)

 

This seems to suggest that you cannot hit the 'fex with Jaws, while Coverfire said

 

I believe it is okay as long as you target valid unit first.

 

As for the template arguement, the template must be placed without touching friendlies... but Jaws force your own troops to take an Initiative test too.

 

Which one is it, Brothers?

 

I think there are arguments for both sides here. On one hand, Jaws isnt a template, its a 1-D line that hits all single models it touches. And we also know that on some occasions, units in CC can be hit by ranged attacks. The ranged attack in this case isn't aimed at the 'fex, its aimed at a gaunt. It happens to hit the 'fex due to the nature of Jaws, which to me seems kinda like the effect of a template scattering into a CC. So I think it should hit the 'fex, but some people may argue this is rather unfair.

[Grimtooth]

It's a template in that it is a straight line that hits everything in its path. Take a tape measure or one of those little red sticks (for LoS). They may be small in width, but they would still be considered templates for this purpose.

 

In dealing with cc, you've gotta remember that even though the models are literally stationary, it is assumed that they are moving in and around each other if they are in base contact, so even if the carnifex was on the outer ring of a cc group, it is considered to be surrounded by your troops.

 

That being said, if you hoped to hit the carnifex with Jaws, then your own troops in base contact with the carnifex would be hit with Jaws as well. Since you are not allowed to intentionally shoot into a close combat fight, and Jaws do not scatter, this scenario is not possible. (Rulebook pg. 40)

 

This seems to suggest that you cannot hit the 'fex with Jaws, while Coverfire said

 

I believe it is okay as long as you target valid unit first.

 

As for the template arguement, the template must be placed without touching friendlies... but Jaws force your own troops to take an Initiative test too.

 

Which one is it, Brothers?

 

I think there are arguments for both sides here. On one hand, Jaws isnt a template, its a 1-D line that hits all single models it touches. And we also know that on some occasions, units in CC can be hit by ranged attacks. The ranged attack in this case isn't aimed at the 'fex, its aimed at a gaunt. It happens to hit the 'fex due to the nature of Jaws, which to me seems kinda like the effect of a template scattering into a CC. So I think it should hit the 'fex, but some people may argue this is rather unfair.

 

See my response above minus the UFC commentary.

[Fellblades]

Yup, I posted about .02 seconds after you I think. But basically, I agree with you

[Krablauch]

Awesome, that was my thought as well. But I let it slide, he fex died to a thunder hammer WG the next turn any way.

[Spacefrisian]

Maybe it was due to him being in cc, i am not sure you can jaws into cc due to it not being worded as being possible.

[Schertenleib]

IIRC it was stated in the FAQ that as long as the first model targeted is in LOS and is a valid shooting target all other models under the 24" line must test regardless. Be they friend, foe, in cc, or not in LOS.

[G. A. K.]

It is a perfectly legal thing to do. I myself don't but that isn't because I can't, I just don't want to get into these type of arguments in a tounament when I don't have the time to waist.

On a similar point... can you target a rhino to hit the guys hiding behind it? I'm not sure if your primary target can be something that you can't hurt, as long as it is in LOS. There is no rule that says you can't shoot a bolt pistol at a Land Raider, you just don't usually bother as it won't do anything.

 

G

[Mjollnir]

Your thread makes me think about a question:

 

If I use JOTWW against a unit in a terrain that has multiple levels (such as a destroyed building for example), does it affect the models on each levels directly under the line or just those on the level i shot?

[Schertenleib]

It says you draw a 24" line across the board. It is to my understanding that it is just the playing surface. Though I would understand it to include hills or such that modify the surface itself. I would also argue that putting you model on a chair, table, barrel or rock does not save them from Jaws. Your not trying to get away from a mouse after all :D

[Mjollnir]

So would you say it does not work like the template weapon rule that tells you will only affect the models on the level your shooting?

[skoll]

since jaws works on models with initiative Im sure it is safe to assume it works on a walker right?

[Mjollnir]

since jaws works on models with initiative Im sure it is safe to assume it works on a walker right?

 

Nope it dont, because walkers are ''vehicules''.

[skoll]

see i hate that kinda thing....im pretty sure being a lumbering machine doesnt save you from falling down a giant hole if anything it should make you more prone to it.

[Spacefrisian]

IIRC it was stated in the FAQ that as long as the first model targeted is in LOS and is a valid shooting target all other models under the 24" line must test regardless. Be they friend, foe, in cc, or not in LOS.

 

 

Thats where my confusion comes from, units cannot be targeted by shooting attacks when they are in close combat what makes this an exception (saying they are withini line of sight doesnt cut it alone).

[Hear da Lamentation]

No, it lists the unit types which can be effected - walkers arent on that list

[Mjollnir]

see i hate that kinda thing....im pretty sure being a lumbering machine doesnt save you from falling down a giant hole if anything it should make you more prone to it.

 

LOL 100% with u

[Schertenleib]

IIRC it was stated in the FAQ that as long as the first model targeted is in LOS and is a valid shooting target all other models under the 24" line must test regardless. Be they friend, foe, in cc, or not in LOS.

 

 

Thats where my confusion comes from, units cannot be targeted by shooting attacks when they are in close combat what makes this an exception (saying they are withini line of sight doesnt cut it alone).

 

 

That is why your not targeting the units in cc but a valid target between the combat and the Rune Priest.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thats where my confusion comes from, units cannot be targeted by shooting attacks when they are in close combat what makes this an exception (saying they are withini line of sight doesnt cut it alone).

 

The crux of this (for me) is this.

 

The model being targetting MUST be in line of sight. MUST NOT be in combat. MUST be in range etc etc . In fact, all of the same rules that apply to normal shooting (other than the fact you can "snipe" models in a unit with this.)

 

BUT - then the line continues travelling PAST the model targetted and ALL models whose base is under that line have to save (friend or foe). There is nothing there which talks about units in combat or anything else.