GW Hates GK Players...

[nurglez]

well, I ordered my grey knights from a local shop called darksphere, if you collect they do web prices. and I bought 3 boxes of termies, 2 dreadknights and draigo for around £130. not bad for a 1500ish point paladin army :D

[Wildfire]

Yeah the costs are another reason why i avoid paladins. To make a fully kitted out paladin squad (10 men, 4 Psycannons) you need 4 boxes. Since the psycannon is, arguably, the only weapon worth using on a GKT there is little chance of finding spares online.

 

Or just use model them as assault cannons and say they have psybolts. I think that would look better anyways. Assault cannons are the easiest thing to scratch build, too.

[nurglez]

I hit upon the shortage of psycannon's for paladins before I even ordered them, so I'm using the psylancer with a chaos vehicle gargoyle barrel thing replacing the 3 barrels.

[Spacefrisian]

I do agree with the OP, its kinda absurd you only get 5 marines as opposed to 10. Even if they add a lot of Bits to it in the end most of these bits will collect dust, thats like wasting 15 euros for 5 dust collectors. Not to mention that after a while the models GW produced have many moldlines on them.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

The boxes are no worse than Assault Marines, Death Company or Sanguinary Guard. I'd say GK are hell of a lot cheaper to play than B.A.

[Tybrus]

The boxes are no worse than Assault Marines, Death Company or Sanguinary Guard. I'd say GK are hell of a lot cheaper to play than B.A.

 

 

True, but...Grey Hunters, Tac Marines, Black Templars, & Chaos Marines (so every other PA group but BA's) get 10 PA troops in a pack. So I stand by my OP...

[AoC]

I feel the spure content is quite good, sure you have just 5 marines, but amount of bling bling (weapons) is very good, and considering you want to play strike squads and purifiers/interceptors, there are enough weapons to arm them in competitive way (except psycannons, but it's ward failure alone - he just screwed on psilencers and incinerators rules and points costs, making psycannons the new black).

[breng77]

True, but...Grey Hunters, Tac Marines, Black Templars, & Chaos Marines (so every other PA group but BA's) get 10 PA troops in a pack. So I stand by my OP...

 

Almost none of which come with near all the upgrades for the squad, I was pleased to see that GKs at least had a representation of all of the weapons that you can buy (infact the PA GK box has all of the special weapons you will need for anything short of a purgation squad.). I will agree that Grey Hunters are a good buy, but GKs hardly have it all that bad (as I posted above), Templars don't even have their own box, the only thing they have are sword bretheren at 5 for $41.25. Every other poer armor group(including BA) can just buy tactical marines, and therefore get their stuff cheaper, but every other group also has to buy more models, and other boxes just to get the upgrades for the squad. You either need to buy the special weapons packs, or a devastator box to get the heavy weapons for your tactical squad (since I believe they only come with a missile launcher). Grey knights (sanguinary Guard, Death company) are comparably priced to other PA units that have the same level of detail on the models, if you are not concerned with that just buy tactical squads and a few GK boxes. the only similarly detailed box that is a better buy is the Space Wolf Box, and you need to factor into that box the buying of special weapons for the squad (which are $8 for 5, and you cannot get flamers from GW). Was I disappointed with only 5 guys...sure, but with the amount of options you get it is actually a pretty good deal as you don't need to buy multiple boxes just to get the options your squad can take (for the most part), and you certainly don't have to buy multiple boxes to make a legal squad.

 

GW hates Gk players....Talk to the Tyranid player about who GW truly hates.

[Valkyrion]

Black Templars have to buy a tactical squad AND an upgrade set, making it nearer £40 for a ten man squad which is what GK and BA players pay.

 

SW have it nice with their shiny kit, but thats because to make bikers and jump packs and long fangs they need to buy other normal marine kits.

GK's don't. They have two kits that make everything.

[Brovius]

True, but...Grey Hunters, Tac Marines, Black Templars, & Chaos Marines (so every other PA group but BA's) get 10 PA troops in a pack. So I stand by my OP...

 

Almost none of which come with near all the upgrades for the squad, I was pleased to see that GKs at least had a representation of all of the weapons that you can buy (infact the PA GK box has all of the special weapons you will need for anything short of a purgation squad.). I will agree that Grey Hunters are a good buy, but GKs hardly have it all that bad (as I posted above), Templars don't even have their own box, the only thing they have are sword bretheren at 5 for $41.25. Every other poer armor group(including BA) can just buy tactical marines, and therefore get their stuff cheaper, but every other group also has to buy more models, and other boxes just to get the upgrades for the squad. You either need to buy the special weapons packs, or a devastator box to get the heavy weapons for your tactical squad (since I believe they only come with a missile launcher). Grey knights (sanguinary Guard, Death company) are comparably priced to other PA units that have the same level of detail on the models, if you are not concerned with that just buy tactical squads and a few GK boxes. the only similarly detailed box that is a better buy is the Space Wolf Box, and you need to factor into that box the buying of special weapons for the squad (which are $8 for 5, and you cannot get flamers from GW). Was I disappointed with only 5 guys...sure, but with the amount of options you get it is actually a pretty good deal as you don't need to buy multiple boxes just to get the options your squad can take (for the most part), and you certainly don't have to buy multiple boxes to make a legal squad.

 

GW hates Gk players....Talk to the Tyranid player about who GW truly hates.

 

Tyranid and GK player here.

As a Tyranid player, GW hate me like i stole their highschool sweetheart.

As a GK player, they want my monehs. As far as i'm concerned, they can have it, because it's good to have a competitive army again :lol:

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

In all fairness, every other good Marine list these days runs bikes as troops, making marines indefinetly more expensive than GK. Most B.A players don't ever use tacticals, and only Dark Angels actually have to use them (as their book is old, Deatwing is specialised, and ravenwing cost like 40 points each).

 

The way I see it, GK are possibly hands down the cheapest army to play other than Deathwing (which they can immitate).

[Spacefrisian]

just did the math.

 

1 box of 5 Gknights cost 26 euros that means 5,20 euros for 1 plastic toy soldier

1 box of 10 tactical cost 30 euro thats 3 euro per Marine

1 box of 10 guardsmen 20 euro thats 2 euro a piece

 

Yes bits are given but most of them arent that usefull, and some basics are missing eg Pfist in marine box.

 

I dunno about others but thats expensive in all cases.

[breng77]

Dark Angels actually have to use them (as their book is old, Deatwing is specialised, and ravenwing cost like 40 points each).

 

As I Dark angel player, I never run tacticals, it is DW or RW all the way, if you want to be at all competitive, otherwise you run another book and play tacticals. Marine Bike armies are actually pretty Cheap to build (you buy the $90 RW battleforce, get 6 bikes an attack bike and a speeder.) Most bike armies are not running more than 30 -35 bikes so you are looking at a decent chunk of change, but tactical squads+transports cost more. Deathwing while still cheap actually got more expensive to build after the new FAQ (as you need to buy either TH/SS bitz, or Assault terminator boxes @ $50 each), when TH/SS and Cyclones were bad, you could just get DA upgrade sprues, and Black reach termies on the cheap. Buy Draigowing has the potential to be the single cheapest army (though debatable competitive.)

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Dark Angels actually have to use them (as their book is old, Deatwing is specialised, and ravenwing cost like 40 points each).

 

As I Dark angel player, I never run tacticals, it is DW or RW all the way, if you want to be at all competitive, otherwise you run another book and play tacticals. Marine Bike armies are actually pretty Cheap to build (you buy the $90 RW battleforce, get 6 bikes an attack bike and a speeder.) Most bike armies are not running more than 30 -35 bikes so you are looking at a decent chunk of change, but tactical squads+transports cost more. Deathwing while still cheap actually got more expensive to build after the new FAQ (as you need to buy either TH/SS bitz, or Assault terminator boxes @ $50 each), when TH/SS and Cyclones were bad, you could just get DA upgrade sprues, and Black reach termies on the cheap. Buy Draigowing has the potential to be the single cheapest army (though debatable competitive.)

 

I forgot the bit about how cheap the Deatwing dude is now compared to other marine hq-choices, so I guess most DA do indeed run other than tacticals as troops.

I always forget about special chars. as I'm Swedish, and apparently we hate those ><

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

just did the math.

 

1 box of 5 Gknights cost 26 euros that means 5,20 euros for 1 plastic toy soldier

1 box of 10 tactical cost 30 euro thats 3 euro per Marine

1 box of 10 guardsmen 20 euro thats 2 euro a piece

 

Yes bits are given but most of them arent that usefull, and some basics are missing eg Pfist in marine box.

 

I dunno about others but thats expensive in all cases.

 

Number of marines isn't the important part. It's points per cent that count. PAGK boxes have almost everything you want, unless you really think all bodies must have halberds.

Tactical boxes miss all heavy weapons that aren't M.L.

[Valkyrion]

I've done some math too;

 

5 purifiers, 2 psycannon, 1 warding, 1 hammer, 1 falchion, 1 master crafted, 1 digital, psybolt - 205, or points per model = 41

 

10 tactical, missile launcher, plasma gun - 180, or 18 points per model

 

10 Imperial guard, vox, flamer - 60, or 6 points per model

 

or how about with the terminators?

 

5 paladins, apothecary, banner, psycannon, psilencer, warding, 5 x master crafted, psybolt - 470 or 94 points per model

 

5 terminators - assault cannon, 2 chainfists - 240 or 48 points per model

 

10 kasrkin count as storm troopers, flamer, pw, grenade - 185 or 18.5 points per model.

 

 

 

You are able to get double, treble or even quadruple and beyond in points for the same financial outlay.

[Adir]

While not an apples to apples comparison here is what I was toying with. For space marines, in order to get the similar weapons options from the PAGK box, you would need to buy a devastator box (heavy weapons) and a command box (melta/plasma guns, power fist and power sword). You would also need to bits order jump packs if you wanted a squad of assault marines (10 jump packs == $16)

 

So 1 box tac marines, devastator, command, and jump pack bits is $136. 20 marines with enough options to make what you need (including 10 man assault marines).

 

20 PAGK would run you $132 assuming that you used straight plastic PAGK (no mix and match with other marine kits).

 

I think, on balance, there is a great deal of equivalence between costs for PAGK and other marine armies.

 

The space wolves box is a bit nicer given that you really only need to buy meltagun bits to complete the squad. Of course, the wolves don't get any of the heavy weapons so you are still stuck buying a devastator box to get closer to the PAGK.

[Valkyrion]

The space wolves box is a bit nicer given that you really only need to buy meltagun bits to complete the squad. Of course, the wolves don't get any of the heavy weapons so you are still stuck buying a devastator box to get closer to the PAGK.

 

Yes but no but...Space Wolves need to be able to make a squad of ten so that they can make a squad of five.

What I mean is, if you want Skyclaws and Long Fangs then you need to buy an Assault Squad, Devastator squad and SW box. The SW parts carry over completely to the rest of the SM range. The GK's don't because of their silly armour, so you get everything you need to kit out a squad of five GK's regardless of their actual unit. You can't use SW boxes to make Long Fangs or Skyclaws without first buying normal marines as well.

 

On balance, GW has got it all completely right, IMO.

[Adir]

On balance, GW has got it all completely right, IMO.

I think I agree with this... maybe, but yeah no, yes I do :P

 

gee-dub did right by us GK players. They didn't muck around with a bunch of different boxes and you can easily sell/trade the bits you don't need.

 

4 PAGK boxes nets you a 10 man GKSS w/2 psycannons and a 10 man Purifier squad w/halberds and 4 psycannons. That seems to be the optimal loadout for these squads (assuming you combat squad the purifiers - and run the 5 man in a razorback).

 

As mentioned previously, I strongly encourage folks to look at the Dark Angels upgrade sprue... $13 for five robed bodies that mesh very well with the additional bits from the PAGK box:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-nqKLvzR14FI/Tahu...00/new_pagk.jpg

[Foehammer888]

I think the price is also affected by their worth and quantity in game.

 

This is possibly the most annoying thing about GW. Does the fact that a model is an elite choice make it more costly to design or produce? No!

Actually, yes it does.

 

Sale price for a product must recoup 2 costs, the labor/material to produce/sell the exact product (i.e. the box of miniatures you are buying) and the development cost of the product (the concept artist, sculptor, the injection mould, etc). For plastic kits, that overhead cost is huge, often over $100k for the mould alone. That development cost needs to be repaid before the company can make a profit on the product. So, usually what happens is, they project how many units will sell, determine their development costs, and their desired profit, and use that to calculate the cost per unit. The higher the projected sale quantity, the lower the cost.

 

So if a mould costs $100k, and each box costs $10 to make and sell, and will sell for $35, it will take them $100k/$25 = 20,000 boxes sold before they recoup the cost of the mould, after which each box sold is $25 profit. The key to this is, they have to be sure they will sell more than 20,000 kits or else the product doesn't make profit.

 

The end result is, if all moulds cost the same to make, "elite" armies with fewer models need to be more expensive per model for GW to recoup the development costs for the moulds, as their projected model sales will be lower. So if grey knight players will have half as many models as a SM army, those marines need to cost twice as much if the product lines are going to be equally profitable for GW.

 

Its a very simple and not totally accurate example, as I'm sure GW doesn't design every boxed set to be profitable in the end, but it does help explain things.

[Aidoneus]

To the OP... capitalism is a :whistling: , ain't it? Why does GW charge so much for cheap plastics? Why do points values or force org slots matter in dollar value? Why do some armies cost more than others?

 

Because we will pay.

 

It's simple market forces, guys. GW has had years and years to work out just how much they can charge before too many people stop buying their products, so that they now sell at the price where they reach the maximum profit.

 

If you don't like it, stop buying their product. Other than some paints and a single Dreadknight I got for 20% off, I haven't bought a GW product in two years, at least.

 

That being said, I regret very few, if any, GW purchases I have made. You're not paying for plastic bits; you're paying for the utility you gain from owning, assembling, converting, painting, and playing with your army for as long as you own it. The up-front cost of the models is an investment. I don't know about you, but to me the price is well worth the amount of time and the amount of pleasure I've gotten from it. But now, I have my 4 or 5 armies, and that will last me for years to come. I've made my investment, and can continue to collect the dividends.

[Prathios]

To the OP... capitalism is a :whistling: , ain't it? Why does GW charge so much for cheap plastics? Why do points values or force org slots matter in dollar value? Why do some armies cost more than others?

 

Because we will pay.

 

It's simple market forces, guys. GW has had years and years to work out just how much they can charge before too many people stop buying their products, so that they now sell at the price where they reach the maximum profit.

 

If you don't like it, stop buying their product. Other than some paints and a single Dreadknight I got for 20% off, I haven't bought a GW product in two years, at least.

 

That being said, I regret very few, if any, GW purchases I have made. You're not paying for plastic bits; you're paying for the utility you gain from owning, assembling, converting, painting, and playing with your army for as long as you own it. The up-front cost of the models is an investment. I don't know about you, but to me the price is well worth the amount of time and the amount of pleasure I've gotten from it. But now, I have my 4 or 5 armies, and that will last me for years to come. I've made my investment, and can continue to collect the dividends.

 

Though in many ways this is a failure of GW to capitalize on capitalism! (See what I did there) The most successful companies don't charge as much as they can get away with because they realize it limits their markets. Selling an item for less than what people will pay encourages them to buy more, and tell their friends to buy more. It expands the market. GW's business model is horrendous. It does not "work" as you say. It gets by fairly well, and it can thank THQ and Relic for any increase in sales over the last six years. If GW shut down their stores and used third party retailers and online retailers they would reduce overhead and allow themselves to lower the price of their product, which would encourage more to get into the hobby. They could use incentive programs to encourage stores to hold the tournaments and games the local store used to hold. It's pretty basic economics, but GW is not managed particularly competently. Again, I'd love it if a good solid company could buy them out and make the world a better place for us.

[S'jet]

At least you have new models IN PLASTIC. Witch hunters players are still waiting.... and waiting,... and waiting =p

[Brovius]

At least you have new models IN PLASTIC. Witch hunters players are still waiting.... and waiting,... and waiting =p

 

We were waiting first! :P

I'm just glad that my Knights finally got some attention. To all the people complaining about our codex being cheesy and overpowered; we've been waiting 8 years for a codex, and it will probably be another 8 years before we get another one. All these haters can quit their complaining, their standard SM army will have a shiny new book again within the next 2 years, guaranteed.

[jaxjace]

i think it all comes down to the Grey Knights being the greatest warriors the imperium has ever known ever period. *cough custodians cough* WHO SAID THAT?

 

but really, i mean when you think of it a single space marine is worth at least 3 boyz and so a grey knight is easily worth 10 orks just like a land raider is worth 2 predators.

 

your going the quality over quantity strategy. expect to pay more for model but when it comes down to the battle, youll see that it evens out really

 

good luck :P