GW Hates GK Players...

[Aidoneus]

Selling an item for less than what people will pay encourages them to buy more, and tell their friends to buy more. It expands the market.

What possible evidence do you have that this isn't happening? I know lots of people who have recommended 40k or fantasy to their friends, and thus gotten new players into the game. It seems to be working just fine. Unless you can point me to specific consumer research that shows that a decrease in price would lead to a larger increase in sales, I'll continue to give the company with that sort of information available to them the benefit of the doubt. Especially when all experiential evidence I have points to players, despite their complaining, still buying 40k products regularly.

[Valerian]

I am a little peeved that the "basic" weapon for squads is the Sword, while the all of the old metal models came standard with Halberds (excepting Justicars and special weapons troops). The rules for Halberds are terrific, but I don't need a 5 ppm upgrade for my basic troops. Was it a business move by GW to try to force/encourage me to buy the new plastics? Or, more likely, was it a boneheaded move by the designer who didn't think through the implications of the rules on those us who already had large Grey Knights armies? I wouldn't say that GW hates GK players, but they certainly didn't take extra care to make things right for us.

 

Valerian

[Prathios]

Selling an item for less than what people will pay encourages them to buy more, and tell their friends to buy more. It expands the market.

What possible evidence do you have that this isn't happening? I know lots of people who have recommended 40k or fantasy to their friends, and thus gotten new players into the game. It seems to be working just fine. Unless you can point me to specific consumer research that shows that a decrease in price would lead to a larger increase in sales, I'll continue to give the company with that sort of information available to them the benefit of the doubt. Especially when all experiential evidence I have points to players, despite their complaining, still buying 40k products regularly.

 

It's basic free market economics, I don't need a specific example because it's a well known model. This is what successful companies do. For instance, Walmart is the largest employer of people in the world, if I remember correctly (privately at least) and it abuses the hell out of this business model. It undercuts prices off everyone so that more people will shop there to get the good prices. Now, if you can prove that this model does not work for Walmart than by all means you win. Giving a business the benefit of the doubt seems counter intuitive when concerning a business run by people who are not professional businessmen.

 

Now you then go on to say that people already get each other into the game by word of mouth, which is correct. But the flip side is how many don't because of the price that would have if they didn't cost as much? At least 4 people I've talked to decided not to get into the game because it was the same price for a plastic tank as it was for a brand new xbox game. Think about that when you factor in all your leverage. I promise it cost less to develop and buy the mold than it cost to develop and distribute a new video game. GW is getting a ton of free publicity out of THQ but their business model stinks. People do not want to go buy a new army if they don't just drown in disposable income. It's hard to get anyone interested when the first thing they see is, you can buy 5 guys for 40 dollars... that's 8 dollars for a piece of plastic that cost GW a dollar to make.

 

Next up, they could save money buy not kicking out a new rulebook and space marine codex every ten minutes. They don't make much money on books sales, nobody makes much money on books sales. But they spend an huge effort to kick them out as fast as possible. But then they go the extra mile and kick out codex that are not ready for release due to errors and are poorly written to boot. And in another super fail of capitalism they don't integrate anything with the black library. Ciaphas Cain and Gaunt were not in the new IG codex... they even got rid of Gaunt since the last one. No cross promotional tie-ins. I'm not even a business major, just have a couple of classes and I know this stuff. It's incredibly basic Aidoneus. Furthermore, you didn't even address my point about the stores. Maintaining that kind of overhead is massively counter productive. Using incentive programs to help local retailers promote the product would save them a fortune, but they don't do it because it's how they got their start and they don't know any different. They are in the big leagues, time to start acting like it. It says a lot about a company when a huge portion of its customers don't like it. Nobody that I know around these parts likes GW at all as a company. We just love the product they are responsible for creating. It's a win/lose for us. GW could change its business model to make it win/win. You point to the fact that we buy their stuff as support for your argument, what choice do we have if we like the game? It just means we buy less. I need another 4-6 packs of PAGK and 4 Termies to give myself all the options I want, but It's not going to happen cause I don't wanna spend 500 more dollars for tiny plastic men, when I could make a car payment. I'll just make due with what I have until I can justify spending outrageous amounts of money to support a company that drives me crazy.

[Grimtooth]

Selling an item for less than what people will pay encourages them to buy more, and tell their friends to buy more. It expands the market.

What possible evidence do you have that this isn't happening? I know lots of people who have recommended 40k or fantasy to their friends, and thus gotten new players into the game. It seems to be working just fine. Unless you can point me to specific consumer research that shows that a decrease in price would lead to a larger increase in sales, I'll continue to give the company with that sort of information available to them the benefit of the doubt. Especially when all experiential evidence I have points to players, despite their complaining, still buying 40k products regularly.

 

It's basic free market economics, I don't need a specific example because it's a well known model. This is what successful companies do. For instance, Walmart is the largest employer of people in the world, if I remember correctly (privately at least) and it abuses the hell out of this business model. It undercuts prices off everyone so that more people will shop there to get the good prices. Now, if you can prove that this model does not work for Walmart than by all means you win. Giving a business the benefit of the doubt seems counter intuitive when concerning a business run by people who are not professional businessmen.

 

Now you then go on to say that people already get each other into the game by word of mouth, which is correct. But the flip side is how many don't because of the price that would have if they didn't cost as much? At least 4 people I've talked to decided not to get into the game because it was the same price for a plastic tank as it was for a brand new xbox game. Think about that when you factor in all your leverage. I promise it cost less to develop and buy the mold than it cost to develop and distribute a new video game. GW is getting a ton of free publicity out of THQ but their business model stinks. People do not want to go buy a new army if they don't just drown in disposable income. It's hard to get anyone interested when the first thing they see is, you can buy 5 guys for 40 dollars... that's 8 dollars for a piece of plastic that cost GW a dollar to make.

 

Next up, they could save money buy not kicking out a new rulebook and space marine codex every ten minutes. They don't make much money on books sales, nobody makes much money on books sales. But they spend an huge effort to kick them out as fast as possible. But then they go the extra mile and kick out codex that are not ready for release due to errors and are poorly written to boot. And in another super fail of capitalism they don't integrate anything with the black library. Ciaphas Cain and Gaunt were not in the new IG codex... they even got rid of Gaunt since the last one. No cross promotional tie-ins. I'm not even a business major, just have a couple of classes and I know this stuff. It's incredibly basic Aidoneus. Furthermore, you didn't even address my point about the stores. Maintaining that kind of overhead is massively counter productive. Using incentive programs to help local retailers promote the product would save them a fortune, but they don't do it because it's how they got their start and they don't know any different. They are in the big leagues, time to start acting like it. It says a lot about a company when a huge portion of its customers don't like it. Nobody that I know around these parts likes GW at all as a company. We just love the product they are responsible for creating. It's a win/lose for us. GW could change its business model to make it win/win. You point to the fact that we buy their stuff as support for your argument, what choice do we have if we like the game? It just means we buy less. I need another 4-6 packs of PAGK and 4 Termies to give myself all the options I want, but It's not going to happen cause I don't wanna spend 500 more dollars for tiny plastic men, when I could make a car payment. I'll just make due with what I have until I can justify spending outrageous amounts of money to support a company that drives me crazy.

 

Horrible example.

 

Wal-mart is able to price so low because the vast majority of their products are digustingly dirt cheap from China. Also you are discounting the comparison bewteen the consumer products Wal-mart sells as opposed to the niche market that wargaming happens occupy. Notice that Wal-mart is NOT carrying Warhammer 40k?

 

GW has just calculated a price what the market will support and has set said price at that point. No point in gping any lower as that is just giving money away and any higher, they will drive away customers. It is kinda pointless arguing the cost of a hobby anyway. It isn't a necessity, it is a hobby. If you can't pay to play, then you don't play.

[HB66]

You Said it Brother Ramses!!!

- if you cant pay to play.......go get back into comics, or magic cards.

- ive been playn GW for 15 yrs and have seen this hobby do nothing but grow and grow.

Even in economically hard times hobbies like GW will grow and continue to prosper, for one simple reason......people need a distraction. Look through out history and you will see this. But any way, I hate it when people bash GW.........Do you realize they have created this HUGE universe......all ido is read BL books...they are the foundation of my fantasy reading. GW hs created one of the greates fantasy/sci fi franchises in history....i put them above star trek, and star wars.

If your mom isnt giving you enough allowance to buy models...........then dont play.

 

Im not tryning to bash the rest of my fellow fantasy geeks, i just get tired of the "anti-GW" trash.

 

HB66

[Prathios]

Blows me absolutely away that people will allow bias to cloud there ability to see simple macro-economics. It's not rocket science, its how an economic model works. Wal-Mart was not a horrible example because I understand basic economic principles. I chose the largest, easiest to understand example of a supply side change that results in a demand side increase. If you want to look at it as "anti-gw" trash or what have you then by all means keep your blinders on. The Imperium prides itself on the mind too small for doubt, I on the other hand live here in the real world where we have to look at things without emotion clouding our lenses.

 

GW grows for the same reason's I have already stated, it's not a mystery and it certainly isn't because they are the savviest businessmen ever. They sell an amazingly deep and rich product. The product sells 40k, not the manufacturer. Myself for instance got into the hobby because I read and enjoyed the books. I was appalled at how the tabletop side of the equation was operated, but I had a ton of money to throw away from a new job so I decided it wouldn't hurt this once. Well as any addictive hobby I continue to buy the massively overpriced goods because I enjoy it. For me it is worth it, but that doesn't make me a super happy camper who thinks that's just dandy. I would be willing to buy even more at a lower price. I might have more armies or spend more time with the product were it cheaper.

 

Also I find it disappointing that Ramses and others can simply state, "any higher and people go away, and any lower and they are just giving it away." That's hypocrisy at its absolute worst, if it was more expensive you would still buy it. You yourself talk about how great it is, which means you obviously are not at the breaking point of how much you would pay. This encourages them to charge more, because you will pay it. Not because it's a fair price, but because you put up with it. If you want to debate the point you might also look at the other dozen points I made rather than just jump at the first one that caught your eye. I've yet to see anyone make a salient economic argument here and I begin to think I waste my time.

 

As for HB66, you're last sentence is pointless. You did bash your fellow fantasy geeks, and you did so with great enthusiasm. I especially liked the mom giving allowance to buy models. With comments like "Do you realize they have created this HUGE universe" I know I'm dealing with someone who put a lot of thought into this. Your history point, btw, is incorrect. The first items to go when economic hard times fall is expensive hobbies. Items like Alcohol are the escapes that stick around because they are CHEAP. Yes, I've read about half the black library, this is not an exaggeration. I actually dislike the tabletop fluff because I find it poorly written compared to Abnett or Mitchell. Especially faced with the GK codex. So HB I appreciate your stance in standing up for the company that makes you such a happy lad, but please add something to the debate instead of making, "buy it or go home statements." These add nothing to the debate.

[Dilgar]

So nothing wrong with the rules/stats?

 

I for one like em, but it seems that GW got the most important thing right!

 

The price is steep on the new GK yes, but as stated many times, we who played GK before sure got some nice new bits for the old metal models :( .

[Grimtooth]

Blows me absolutely away that people will allow bias to cloud there ability to see simple macro-economics. It's not rocket science, its how an economic model works. Wal-Mart was not a horrible example because I understand basic economic principles. I chose the largest, easiest to understand example of a supply side change that results in a demand side increase. If you want to look at it as "anti-gw" trash or what have you then by all means keep your blinders on. The Imperium prides itself on the mind too small for doubt, I on the other hand live here in the real world where we have to look at things without emotion clouding our lenses.

 

GW grows for the same reason's I have already stated, it's not a mystery and it certainly isn't because they are the savviest businessmen ever. They sell an amazingly deep and rich product. The product sells 40k, not the manufacturer. Myself for instance got into the hobby because I read and enjoyed the books. I was appalled at how the tabletop side of the equation was operated, but I had a ton of money to throw away from a new job so I decided it wouldn't hurt this once. Well as any addictive hobby I continue to buy the massively overpriced goods because I enjoy it. For me it is worth it, but that doesn't make me a super happy camper who thinks that's just dandy. I would be willing to buy even more at a lower price. I might have more armies or spend more time with the product were it cheaper.

 

Also I find it disappointing that Ramses and others can simply state, "any higher and people go away, and any lower and they are just giving it away." That's hypocrisy at its absolute worst, if it was more expensive you would still buy it. You yourself talk about how great it is, which means you obviously are not at the breaking point of how much you would pay. This encourages them to charge more, because you will pay it. Not because it's a fair price, but because you put up with it. If you want to debate the point you might also look at the other dozen points I made rather than just jump at the first one that caught your eye. I've yet to see anyone make a salient economic argument here and I begin to think I waste my time.

 

As for HB66, you're last sentence is pointless. You did bash your fellow fantasy geeks, and you did so with great enthusiasm. I especially liked the mom giving allowance to buy models. With comments like "Do you realize they have created this HUGE universe" I know I'm dealing with someone who put a lot of thought into this. Your history point, btw, is incorrect. The first items to go when economic hard times fall is expensive hobbies. Items like Alcohol are the escapes that stick around because they are CHEAP. Yes, I've read about half the black library, this is not an exaggeration. I actually dislike the tabletop fluff because I find it poorly written compared to Abnett or Mitchell. Especially faced with the GK codex. So HB I appreciate your stance in standing up for the company that makes you such a happy lad, but please add something to the debate instead of making, "buy it or go home statements." These add nothing to the debate.

 

You jave no concepts of economics or business for that matter.

 

You don't even address my point on the reasons why Wal-mart is able to sell products so cheaply and neither do you address my point on consumer goods versus a niche market. Here is a concept that maybe you can understand;

 

All businesses will price their products and services right at what the market can bear. Even your vaulted Wal-mart will sell their cheap imported flatscreen televisions at the absolute highest price they can that the market for cheap imported flatscreen televisions can bear.

 

Why doesn't Wal-mart have Black Friday sales everyday of the week, all year long? It is called profit. With all your squabbling about GW, you seem to forget that they are a business whose primary objective is to make a profit. Sure Wal-mart could sell upteen millions more imported crap then they do at the price the market is capable of bearing, but they lose out on profit. If Joe Schmoe will buy a fake wood dining set at $200.00 why in the world sell it at $85.00? Sure GW could sell GK SS for half the price they do now, but why when you are willing to buy, "another 4-6 packs pf PAGK and 4 termies." When you are no longer willing to pay that, then GW has surpassed what the market is willing to bear for their product, for you personally. Your threshold is different then mine which may be different then HB66 and all the otherpeople in this hobby.

 

Finally, compare where GW gets their products versus where your example of free market economics gets their products and get back to me when you finnaly realize the difference.

 

"Maybe one day UNICEF will get into the miniature wargaming business, until then GW is the man to see."

[Grey Mage]

Horrible example.

 

Wal-mart is able to price so low because the vast majority of their products are digustingly dirt cheap from China. Also you are discounting the comparison bewteen the consumer products Wal-mart sells as opposed to the niche market that wargaming happens occupy. Notice that Wal-mart is NOT carrying Warhammer 40k?

 

GW has just calculated a price what the market will support and has set said price at that point. No point in gping any lower as that is just giving money away and any higher, they will drive away customers. It is kinda pointless arguing the cost of a hobby anyway. It isn't a necessity, it is a hobby. If you can't pay to play, then you don't play.

Wait.... you mean like how up until quite recently GW was producing models in china, dirt cheap?

 

Or the niche products walmart sells like golf ball cleaning kits and tie dye bundles?

 

And if GWs price is so good- why did they lose 4% of their profits last year? It cant all be matt ward.

 

For ever person who owns a GW army I know 3 who enjoyed the game- but cannot shell out 400 dollars to have a 1500pts with options to keep it interesting. Its atrocious and unnessecairy. Many of them moved on to other, cheaper systems- like warmachine/hordes, or join RPG groups for their gaming fix.

 

Im not suprised that Wal-mart doesnt carry 40k though- they dont carry any other solid gaming items. A few videogames, largely limited in selection and stock and some very basic computer systems, and some very closely gaurded consoles in limited numbers 'cept around the holidays. Gamers are one of the untapped markets of walmart, despite being one of the fastest growing markets in the world.

 

And the proof is out there- the Leviathan model is the same size as a FW Warhound, and just as detailed- for under half the price. Mantic Games sells entire armies for the price of a battleforce, or less. There are stores out there that survive and flourish selling GW games for 10-20% off the recommended price.

 

If instead of raising prices every single year they only raised them as needed they would have more players. More players buying things- equals more money in their pockets. Quantity of sales is just as important as profit per sale- most major companies, hell most successful companies make money because they have alot of gross.

 

GW wants us to consider their models to be luxury items. So they can charge more for the same product- because thats the main part of the definition of luxury -economically speaking-.... expensive. Theres a certain merit to pricing your products in line with what the customer expects of such a product- people dont think of quality and cheap in the same breath- but theyve over done it. They dont need a price hike every year. They dont need price hikes every couple years.

 

Raising prices and castling up has shown time and again to be a horrible practice in a recession. Its safe-ish, by wich I mean that your company is likely to survive at a reduced income and reduced market share. The companies that do well are those who cut prices and dump money into advertising their products.

 

Whens the last time you saw GW advertise their product on the tv? Whens the last time you saw them in anything but white dwarf? Or anyone elses products in WD?

 

Its horribly miss-managed, and their lowered profits and staffing issues reflect this.

[Prathios]

You jave no concepts of economics or business for that matter.

 

You know when this is the first sentence it's gonna be a fun one. So we are just attacking knowledge of economics and business now are we? You so clearly know me well enough to make this statement. However your post was the debate equivalent of Nuh uh. Especially considering what you said about Wal-Mart was absolutely incorrect. You're entitled to your opinions Ramses, not your facts. Go do some fact finding on how they operate by undercutting the market on high demand prices that they rotate based on carefully measured demand scales and competition sales. Then come back and tell me I "jave" no concept of economics. You have made it very clear you are the guilty party there. Secondly I did address your point about niche markets by telling you I used Wal-Mart as an example of an economic concept... something you appear to have just blow right by. Furthermore you make statements that any economist would be baffled at, "All businesses will price their products and services right at what the market can bear." Wow, just wow... there is so much incorrect about this I don't know where to start. This may come as a surprise, but some businesses price gouge... or monopolize... or a million other things besides what you point out. Your argument just doesn't hold up sir.

 

Edit- lowered the volatility level.

[HB66]

So being that this is a Forum for space marines and other power armoured GW armies......

- how is a massive "Economics 101" course adding to the improvement of this site?

- apparently i ruffled some feathers, but i still stand by what i say.

- and if you want a better history example look at baseball and the great depression. Any comment adds to a debate.

- I will admit this is one of the more interesting "all around" debates that i have seen on this site

 

HB66 :)

[breng77]

I have to agree that Walmart is a bad example for this debate, though not for the reason(s) addressed above. Walmart and GW are not similar types of buisnesses in anyway. GW produces a product, which it then sells, or distributes to retailers. Walmart is a retailer. They don't manufacture their own goods, and they produce no products. They can set their prices lower because they know manufactures want Walmart to carry their goods because they have great market penetration. GW is on the other end of the spectrum in that they are the ones selling goods to retailers (and to customers from their website.) I also agree that miniature wargamming is a niche market and even if GW sold product for say $10 for 10 marines, they would not greatly increase the amount of profit, because only so many people would be interested in the game to begin with.

 

Wait.... you mean like how up until quite recently GW was producing models in china, dirt cheap? true

 

Or the niche products walmart sells like golf ball cleaning kits and tie dye bundles? walmart sells so many other goods they can afford to carry obscure items and chance "losing" money on them, though golf ball cleaning kits and tie dye bundles probably sell better than wargamin minis do

And if GWs price is so good- why did they lose 4% of their profits last year? It cant all be matt ward. global recession possibly?

 

For ever person who owns a GW army I know 3 who enjoyed the game- but cannot shell out 400 dollars to have a 1500pts with options to keep it interesting. Its atrocious and unnessecairy. Many of them moved on to other, cheaper systems- like warmachine/hordes, or join RPG groups for their gaming fix. and probably know 20 who would not pick up the game no matter the price. and for what price would those 3 people buy a 1500 point army? $200? $100? If the price that those 3 people would pick up the game is greater than 1/4 the cost of the game then you are right GW should lower prices, but if 4 out of 20 people will pay $100 to play the game, and 1 out of 20 will pay $400 is there a big difference as far as the bottom line for GW (and most of us have/will spend way more than $400.

 

Now I am not saying GWs prices are not high, but the claim that it is the reason they are not doing well, or that they would do so much better if they sold things cheaper, assumes that GW does not try to look at the market when they set their prices, and maybe they don't but as none of us (I assume) work for them we have no idea.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Selling an item for less than what people will pay encourages them to buy more, and tell their friends to buy more. It expands the market.

What possible evidence do you have that this isn't happening? I know lots of people who have recommended 40k or fantasy to their friends, and thus gotten new players into the game. It seems to be working just fine. Unless you can point me to specific consumer research that shows that a decrease in price would lead to a larger increase in sales, I'll continue to give the company with that sort of information available to them the benefit of the doubt. Especially when all experiential evidence I have points to players, despite their complaining, still buying 40k products regularly.

 

It's basic free market economics, I don't need a specific example because it's a well known model. This is what successful companies do. For instance, Walmart is the largest employer of people in the world, if I remember correctly (privately at least) and it abuses the hell out of this business model. It undercuts prices off everyone so that more people will shop there to get the good prices. Now, if you can prove that this model does not work for Walmart than by all means you win. Giving a business the benefit of the doubt seems counter intuitive when concerning a business run by people who are not professional businessmen.

 

Now you then go on to say that people already get each other into the game by word of mouth, which is correct. But the flip side is how many don't because of the price that would have if they didn't cost as much? At least 4 people I've talked to decided not to get into the game because it was the same price for a plastic tank as it was for a brand new xbox game. Think about that when you factor in all your leverage. I promise it cost less to develop and buy the mold than it cost to develop and distribute a new video game. GW is getting a ton of free publicity out of THQ but their business model stinks. People do not want to go buy a new army if they don't just drown in disposable income. It's hard to get anyone interested when the first thing they see is, you can buy 5 guys for 40 dollars... that's 8 dollars for a piece of plastic that cost GW a dollar to make.

 

Next up, they could save money buy not kicking out a new rulebook and space marine codex every ten minutes. They don't make much money on books sales, nobody makes much money on books sales. But they spend an huge effort to kick them out as fast as possible. But then they go the extra mile and kick out codex that are not ready for release due to errors and are poorly written to boot. And in another super fail of capitalism they don't integrate anything with the black library. Ciaphas Cain and Gaunt were not in the new IG codex... they even got rid of Gaunt since the last one. No cross promotional tie-ins. I'm not even a business major, just have a couple of classes and I know this stuff. It's incredibly basic Aidoneus. Furthermore, you didn't even address my point about the stores. Maintaining that kind of overhead is massively counter productive. Using incentive programs to help local retailers promote the product would save them a fortune, but they don't do it because it's how they got their start and they don't know any different. They are in the big leagues, time to start acting like it. It says a lot about a company when a huge portion of its customers don't like it. Nobody that I know around these parts likes GW at all as a company. We just love the product they are responsible for creating. It's a win/lose for us. GW could change its business model to make it win/win. You point to the fact that we buy their stuff as support for your argument, what choice do we have if we like the game? It just means we buy less. I need another 4-6 packs of PAGK and 4 Termies to give myself all the options I want, but It's not going to happen cause I don't wanna spend 500 more dollars for tiny plastic men, when I could make a car payment. I'll just make due with what I have until I can justify spending outrageous amounts of money to support a company that drives me crazy.

 

Horrible example.

 

Wal-mart is able to price so low because the vast majority of their products are digustingly dirt cheap from China. Also you are discounting the comparison bewteen the consumer products Wal-mart sells as opposed to the niche market that wargaming happens occupy. Notice that Wal-mart is NOT carrying Warhammer 40k?

 

GW has just calculated a price what the market will support and has set said price at that point. No point in gping any lower as that is just giving money away and any higher, they will drive away customers. It is kinda pointless arguing the cost of a hobby anyway. It isn't a necessity, it is a hobby. If you can't pay to play, then you don't play.

 

I agree with Ramses here.

 

Horrible example.

 

Wal-mart is able to price so low because the vast majority of their products are digustingly dirt cheap from China. Also you are discounting the comparison bewteen the consumer products Wal-mart sells as opposed to the niche market that wargaming happens occupy. Notice that Wal-mart is NOT carrying Warhammer 40k?

 

GW has just calculated a price what the market will support and has set said price at that point. No point in gping any lower as that is just giving money away and any higher, they will drive away customers. It is kinda pointless arguing the cost of a hobby anyway. It isn't a necessity, it is a hobby. If you can't pay to play, then you don't play.

Wait.... you mean like how up until quite recently GW was producing models in china, dirt cheap?

 

Or the niche products walmart sells like golf ball cleaning kits and tie dye bundles?

 

And if GWs price is so good- why did they lose 4% of their profits last year? It cant all be matt ward.

 

For ever person who owns a GW army I know 3 who enjoyed the game- but cannot shell out 400 dollars to have a 1500pts with options to keep it interesting. Its atrocious and unnessecairy. Many of them moved on to other, cheaper systems- like warmachine/hordes, or join RPG groups for their gaming fix.

 

Im not suprised that Wal-mart doesnt carry 40k though- they dont carry any other solid gaming items. A few videogames, largely limited in selection and stock and some very basic computer systems, and some very closely gaurded consoles in limited numbers 'cept around the holidays. Gamers are one of the untapped markets of walmart, despite being one of the fastest growing markets in the world.

 

And the proof is out there- the Leviathan model is the same size as a FW Warhound, and just as detailed- for under half the price. Mantic Games sells entire armies for the price of a battleforce, or less. There are stores out there that survive and flourish selling GW games for 10-20% off the recommended price.

 

If instead of raising prices every single year they only raised them as needed they would have more players. More players buying things- equals more money in their pockets. Quantity of sales is just as important as profit per sale- most major companies, hell most successful companies make money because they have alot of gross.

 

GW wants us to consider their models to be luxury items. So they can charge more for the same product- because thats the main part of the definition of luxury -economically speaking-.... expensive. Theres a certain merit to pricing your products in line with what the customer expects of such a product- people dont think of quality and cheap in the same breath- but theyve over done it. They dont need a price hike every year. They dont need price hikes every couple years.

 

Raising prices and castling up has shown time and again to be a horrible practice in a recession. Its safe-ish, by wich I mean that your company is likely to survive at a reduced income and reduced market share. The companies that do well are those who cut prices and dump money into advertising their products.

 

Whens the last time you saw GW advertise their product on the tv? Whens the last time you saw them in anything but white dwarf? Or anyone elses products in WD?

 

Its horribly miss-managed, and their lowered profits and staffing issues reflect this.

 

Damn, I should have read this before replying to the last message. This counter argument is compelling.

[Grimtooth]

Here is a good read for you guys. A little dated, but the points are still quite valid even more so now in this economy.

 

http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/roarseconomics.html

[Prathios]

Ok, I'm going to break this down so that anyone can follow my logic here. I'll give you examples and everything. Ramses example site doesn't appear to be any better informed than the average joe as his citation for "plastic" doesn't even acknowledge what type of material they use.

 

Just to get the ball rolling http://www.amazon.com/NYA-48-M4-Sherman-Ta...pd_bxgy_t_img_b

 

This is a link to a model tank. It is made from the same material by a respected model company. I chose this tank because it's bigger than a land raider and literally 1/3 the price. Both the Land Raider and this Sherman are made from Extruded Polystyrene which is used in a variety of things from model kits to yogurt cups.

 

Ok so lets do a quick checklist,

 

1. Design costs - equivalent - Actually I would nod that the design costs are higher on the Sherman in order to authentically reproduce a real object.

2. Raw Materials - equivalent - Again nod goes to Sherman for size, weight, and the inclusion of a die cast floor panel to weight it down.

3. Production Cost - equivalent - Nothing to note

4. Packaging Cost - equivalent - both boxes contain full color artwork and lamentation. Honestly were I in charge I'd find a new packaging source for GW, the boxes could be done far cheaper. In the example from Ramses site he lists the boxes at $3 a box, even with printing costs for the art this is astronomic.

5. Labor - equivalent - machining both of these products would require the same amount of labor.

 

Ok so we have two products with relatively identical production costs, why is one 3x more expensive than the other? This is where Robert Van Pelt (Ramses article) completely fails at his point. Overhead

 

GW has to pay for the costs of designing the rules and writing up the books. This is a relatively minor addition to the price per model, less than a dollar per model. There is only one other item that separates these two objects, the GW hobby shop. The overhead that these stores cost probably more than double the price per model to maintain. Paying the rent, paying employees, and just keeping the doors open on a store is incredibly expensive. It's the reason Amazon can charge so much less than Best Buy for the same exact product. Games workshop has no reason to own its own outlet stores. It just makes the price of buying their products insane.

 

GW would argue that they sell so many more kits because of these stores. I would bet most serious players buy from 3rd party stores like thewarstore or buy directly from GW online, which costs them virtually nothing. So what could they do instead? The thing I've been arguing from the start nobody has addressed.

 

GW could close its hobby stores and quit restricting retailers from carrying its products. GW RESTRICTS retailers from carrying its products. They think that they lose money when people can buy their product from someone else. They still move product, at a profit!!! This line of thinking is completely contrary to productive capitalist tendencies. Moving more product through any means is the goal, GW restricts itself.

 

So the answer is for GW to close its hobby stores and place incentive programs and remove restrictions for 3rd party distributors. Offer a free box of space marines or a gift certificate to the GW online store (which should sell it's products at wholesale to be competitive with other distributors) for winning a local comic shop tournament. Allow them to give GW whatever shelf space they want as a retailer. But offer promotions and sales, put some adds out. GW could make a healthy profit selling a Land Raider for 30 bucks under this economic strategy. But they insist on doing it the GW way. Which is, to charge exorbitant amounts of money for something that others can sell for 20 bucks.

 

Good day.

[HB66]

That was a great article Ramses,

I was a sociology major so didnt grasp all the intricacies of it, but it was very well done. It points out very well how complex this industry is in terms of designing, manufacturing, and distribution. Its very true we play an expensive hobby, and all things considedred GW has kept costs at a resonable rate. If you consider that they have a "monopoly" on their paticular gaming system, they could charge a hell of alot more.

My earlier statements were harsh, and I thank the forum for calling me out, and furthering this debate. I still belive in the spirit of my commetns though....if its to expensive you may not be able to play. When i was in college and especially now with a child and family i cant drop 300.00 on awhim to buy models. I save till i can afford a box or two, and just spend more time on each model.

I would have to say that buying fewer models, sense they are more expensive or i have less "expendable money" has made me a better painter. So all of us may be not be able to get all the models we want, but....eh......thats just life.

 

Again, great third party resource on this issue Ramses, it focused the debate i believe.

HB^^

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Ok, I'm going to break this down so that anyone can follow my logic here. I'll give you examples and everything. Ramses example site doesn't appear to be any better informed than the average joe as his citation for "plastic" doesn't even acknowledge what type of material they use.

 

Just to get the ball rolling http://www.amazon.com/NYA-48-M4-Sherman-Ta...pd_bxgy_t_img_b

 

This is a link to a model tank. It is made from the same material by a respected model company. I chose this tank because it's bigger than a land raider and literally 1/3 the price. Both the Land Raider and this Sherman are made from Extruded Polystyrene which is used in a variety of things from model kits to yogurt cups.

 

Ok so lets do a quick checklist,

 

1. Design costs - equivalent - Actually I would nod that the design costs are higher on the Sherman in order to authentically reproduce a real object.

2. Raw Materials - equivalent - Again nod goes to Sherman for size, weight, and the inclusion of a die cast floor panel to weight it down.

3. Production Cost - equivalent - Nothing to note

4. Packaging Cost - equivalent - both boxes contain full color artwork and lamentation. Honestly were I in charge I'd find a new packaging source for GW, the boxes could be done far cheaper. In the example from Ramses site he lists the boxes at $3 a box, even with printing costs for the art this is astronomic.

5. Labor - equivalent - machining both of these products would require the same amount of labor.

 

Ok so we have two products with relatively identical production costs, why is one 3x more expensive than the other? This is where Robert Van Pelt (Ramses article) completely fails at his point. Overhead

 

GW has to pay for the costs of designing the rules and writing up the books. This is a relatively minor addition to the price per model, less than a dollar per model. There is only one other item that separates these two objects, the GW hobby shop. The overhead that these stores cost probably more than double the price per model to maintain. Paying the rent, paying employees, and just keeping the doors open on a store is incredibly expensive. It's the reason Amazon can charge so much less than Best Buy for the same exact product. Games workshop has no reason to own its own outlet stores. It just makes the price of buying their products insane.

 

GW would argue that they sell so many more kits because of these stores. I would bet most serious players buy from 3rd party stores like thewarstore or buy directly from GW online, which costs them virtually nothing. So what could they do instead? The thing I've been arguing from the start nobody has addressed.

 

GW could close its hobby stores and quit restricting retailers from carrying its products. GW RESTRICTS retailers from carrying its products. They think that they lose money when people can buy their product from someone else. They still move product, at a profit!!! This line of thinking is completely contrary to productive capitalist tendencies. Moving more product through any means is the goal, GW restricts itself.

 

So the answer is for GW to close its hobby stores and place incentive programs and remove restrictions for 3rd party distributors. Offer a free box of space marines or a gift certificate to the GW online store (which should sell it's products at wholesale to be competitive with other distributors) for winning a local comic shop tournament. Allow them to give GW whatever shelf space they want as a retailer. But offer promotions and sales, put some adds out. GW could make a healthy profit selling a Land Raider for 30 bucks under this economic strategy. But they insist on doing it the GW way. Which is, to charge exorbitant amounts of money for something that others can sell for 20 bucks.

 

Good day.

 

I agree with this message. Well done.

[HB66]

I would say that the design costs would be less on the sherman tank.....

- the design allready exists, just copy what you see in a WW2 picture book.

- the land raider is like an individual work of art.....it needs to be created from artists drawing and then sculpted.

- each individual model that GW produces is a work of art.....car, train and plane models are probably all laser scanned into a CAD system, that takes a total of a few minutes maybe.

 

HB66

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I would say that the design costs would be less on the sherman tank.....

- the design allready exists, just copy what you see in a WW2 picture book.

- the land raider is like an individual work of art.....it needs to be created from artists drawing and then sculpted.

- each individual model that GW produces is a work of art.....car, train and plane models are probably all laser scanned into a CAD system, that takes a total of a few minutes maybe.

 

HB66

 

If you honestly think model builders go laser scan actual tanks, cars and trains (!), I have a bridge to sell you. Lots of bricks, connects Manhattan to Brooklyn. Great price.

 

So, seeing as how GW has to create their model from scratch, what does that mean? GW has to do a few dozen drawings, a few more sculpts than the WW2 "copiers:" Not going to triple the price, unless those artists pull in seven figure salaries.

[breng77]

Except GW is not triple the price of lots of models. Take Tamiya for example their tank kits routinely cost $50+.

[HB66]

im not saying that they laser scan actual planes and traines, good god.

- they build a scale model, or use an actual CAD system and have the actual physical specs of said plane or train and type it into CAD.

- my point was with a fantasy or sci fi model......these things dont exist so they must be created by an artist.

 

yeah they have a laser 3d scanner the size of yankee stadium and go around scanning trains.....really????

HB66

[Brother Valerius]

The problem is, you guys are arguing about whether or not GW's costs justify their prices. They don't have to. They can charge whatever the market will bear.

 

It's quite true that GW might make more money by lowering their prices (from the increase in sales), but it's equally true that they might not. I highly doubt any of us can provide compelling evidence either way (anecdotal evidence isn't enough here), but it's reasonable to assume that GW has taken the trouble to do market research, and knows that they are reasonably poised at a price point to maximize their profit (or at least, are at the price point that would have maximized profit at the time of their market research).

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

im not saying that they laser scan actual planes and traines, good god.

- they build a scale model, or use an actual CAD system and have the actual physical specs of said plane or train and type it into CAD.

- my point was with a fantasy or sci fi model......these things dont exist so they must be created by an artist.

 

yeah they have a laser 3d scanner the size of yankee stadium and go around scanning trains.....really????

HB66

 

You backtracked from your earlier position or realized your language was so imprecise back there as to give the completely wrong impression. If the WW2 team has to actually build something, and GW has to actually build something, what's the difference? Why mention it it like there is one in your last post? Both have to be 'sculpted', both can be scanned after the scale model is made. So your only actual point has NOTHING whatsoever to do with scanning, which is surprising considering your first post trivializing the whole process down to a few minutes of scanning.

 

So disregarding your non-sequitur about laser scans, yes, I agree, things that don't already exist as a reference take more time during the design stage. Which means an extra dozen or so 2-D drawings, a few rough 3-D models, and perhaps an extra sculpt or two, with a couple of meetings interspersed between. That should not drastically increase the costs per model IMHO. Also, let's not forget that there are reference models out there, since Grey Knights aren't a new invention. While the current models are not exact replicas, the design team did not have to start from scratch either...

[Seahawk]

- the design allready exists, just copy what you see in a WW2 picture book.

This doesn't work in any sense.

 

Scale modelling is just that: modelling real-world items to a (typically) smaller scale. A good chunk of that audience wants or demands the product to be exacting down to the last 1/1 scale inch. This is why there are untold amount of resin, metal, and plastic after-market kits that get each and every detail perfectly. Some model builders want to make a tank and presto! There's a tank. Really serious model builders want to make a tank, but not just any; one that was used in the Battle of Poljana, for instance. Since the average model doesn't contain the right parts/etc to do so, they'll take pains to search for those perfect decals, or make sure the model is actually to the right scale, this hatch is in just the right spot, and so on. Many times, companies will produce as-near-to-perfect replicas of various vehicles and such, which typically are very well received by the serious modeller; naturally, while they come with all the fixin's they still tend to clock in cheaper than an equivalent GW model.

 

The point is one cannot "just copy what you see in a WW2 picture book" as inevitably, details will be missing and scales will be off (unless it's a technical blueprint book). It does not work.

[HB66]

Very tru,

- they would not still be in business if they hadnt done the appropriate research, and they are VERY successful. Now most of that is probably because they have such a niche market, but another part of it has to be that they offer a great product at a decent price.

- This is a realy cool debate though, lots of fun ;)

HB66