GW Hates GK Players...

[the jeske]

well you cant kept price low when most people dont stay for a long time are hard to force to buy new stuff .you need more or less need a new dex or new edition to do that . and both dont happen offten enough for GW to be largly interested what vets want. It is logical that after what they did in 90s in europe [those that werent playing at the time dont know how agresive GW can be as company] , GW does such stuff. If you are a monopolist you never lower price you always rise .

[HB66]

Yes Fred you are right...

- both need to be "sculpted" at some stage. Im just putting more value on the "original" art work as opposed to copying something. It does take considerable artistic talent to accuratley copy everything on a sherman tank for example. Just my opinion but i just think that requires less talent.

- GW is creating something out of nothing, sherman tank guys are replicating somethin that all ready is out there is my basic point.

- the uniqueness and creativity of GW justifies their prices is what im saying.

HB66

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

The problem is, you guys are arguing about whether or not GW's costs justify their prices. They don't have to. They can charge whatever the market will bear.

 

Heh. Yes, that is true. People, myself included, are just venting a bit in here. And some believe that lowering the prices could arguably even increase their profits. But since we don't have any rigorous market research, or really any market research, just stuff we pull out of our behinds / anecdotal evidence, there is nothing to do besides give our opinions. Which is fine with me because, in my opinion, I am always right. True story.

[HB66]

LOL,

Fred i think you found the base problem of these rants......were all right, very good point....cause i always know im right to ;)

HB66

[Prathios]

Except GW is not triple the price of lots of models. Take Tamiya for example their tank kits routinely cost $50+.

 

If you clicked my link you would be able to see the word, "Tamiya" in the description. The tank I mentioned is a Tamiya tank, I chose it because its roughly the size of a land raider. It's slightly larger and 1/3 the price. So yes, GW is triple the price.

[Brother Valerius]

Which is fine with me because, in my opinion, I am always right. True story.

 

If this were Facebook, I would click the "like" button next to this. :tu:

[HB66]

I would guess that maybe one explanation for the price difference is the age category for model tanks and planes vs. scifi/fantasy models.....?

- im guessing that the gaming community is typically younger....15-40 and has more expendable income.

- model tanks and trains i would say their target audience is older????

 

HB66

[Prathios]

I would guess that maybe one explanation for the price difference is the age category for model tanks and planes vs. scifi/fantasy models.....?

- im guessing that the gaming community is typically younger....15-40 and has more expendable income.

- model tanks and trains i would say their target audience is older????

 

HB66

 

HB66 I already explained why. You are paying the overhead for the hobby stores. That's all the price difference. I pay 3x cost per model for a shop that I have to drive 2h to get to can stay open. It renders me no services but I still pay for it. You don't have to look for the reason for the price man, it's the overhead on the stores.

[HB66]

Im not discounting your point,

- im just trying to look at every variable involved. I looked into starting my own store sense the closes store to me is 3hrs.....and yes all i heard from the owners i talked to was how much they had to keep stocked in their inventory. For some reason GW wants them to have massive inventories of their product, makes sense from a making money point of view i guess, but thats about it.

HB66

[breng77]

If you clicked my link you would be able to see the word, "Tamiya" in the description. The tank I mentioned is a Tamiya tank, I chose it because its roughly the size of a land raider. It's slightly larger and 1/3 the price. So yes, GW is triple the price.

 

Except it is not at all the size of a land raider. Said Model is 55.5mm by 119mm (2.18 inches wide by and about 4.69 inches long) Now I don't know about you but my land raiders are much larger than that model and it runs $30 direct from Tamiya about half the cost of the land raider (The land raider is More than 6" long and 4.5 to 5 in wide by my reckoning), that tank is Rhino sized if not slightly smaller.

 

This tank is closer in dimensions Link(6.5 inches long) and runs $15 more than the land raider.

 

In addition Amazon is a Discount Retailer, so quoting prices from them is hardly accurate to what Retail for an item is.Rhino on amazonLand Raider

[Grimtooth]

Ok, I'm going to break this down so that anyone can follow my logic here. I'll give you examples and everything. Ramses example site doesn't appear to be any better informed than the average joe as his citation for "plastic" doesn't even acknowledge what type of material they use.

 

Just to get the ball rolling http://www.amazon.com/NYA-48-M4-Sherman-Ta...pd_bxgy_t_img_b

 

This is a link to a model tank. It is made from the same material by a respected model company. I chose this tank because it's bigger than a land raider and literally 1/3 the price. Both the Land Raider and this Sherman are made from Extruded Polystyrene which is used in a variety of things from model kits to yogurt cups.

 

Ok so lets do a quick checklist,

 

1. Design costs - equivalent - Actually I would nod that the design costs are higher on the Sherman in order to authentically reproduce a real object.

2. Raw Materials - equivalent - Again nod goes to Sherman for size, weight, and the inclusion of a die cast floor panel to weight it down.

3. Production Cost - equivalent - Nothing to note

4. Packaging Cost - equivalent - both boxes contain full color artwork and lamentation. Honestly were I in charge I'd find a new packaging source for GW, the boxes could be done far cheaper. In the example from Ramses site he lists the boxes at $3 a box, even with printing costs for the art this is astronomic.

5. Labor - equivalent - machining both of these products would require the same amount of labor.

 

Ok so we have two products with relatively identical production costs, why is one 3x more expensive than the other? This is where Robert Van Pelt (Ramses article) completely fails at his point. Overhead

 

GW has to pay for the costs of designing the rules and writing up the books. This is a relatively minor addition to the price per model, less than a dollar per model. There is only one other item that separates these two objects, the GW hobby shop. The overhead that these stores cost probably more than double the price per model to maintain. Paying the rent, paying employees, and just keeping the doors open on a store is incredibly expensive. It's the reason Amazon can charge so much less than Best Buy for the same exact product. Games workshop has no reason to own its own outlet stores. It just makes the price of buying their products insane.

 

GW would argue that they sell so many more kits because of these stores. I would bet most serious players buy from 3rd party stores like thewarstore or buy directly from GW online, which costs them virtually nothing. So what could they do instead? The thing I've been arguing from the start nobody has addressed.

 

GW could close its hobby stores and quit restricting retailers from carrying its products. GW RESTRICTS retailers from carrying its products. They think that they lose money when people can buy their product from someone else. They still move product, at a profit!!! This line of thinking is completely contrary to productive capitalist tendencies. Moving more product through any means is the goal, GW restricts itself.

 

So the answer is for GW to close its hobby stores and place incentive programs and remove restrictions for 3rd party distributors. Offer a free box of space marines or a gift certificate to the GW online store (which should sell it's products at wholesale to be competitive with other distributors) for winning a local comic shop tournament. Allow them to give GW whatever shelf space they want as a retailer. But offer promotions and sales, put some adds out. GW could make a healthy profit selling a Land Raider for 30 bucks under this economic strategy. But they insist on doing it the GW way. Which is, to charge exorbitant amounts of money for something that others can sell for 20 bucks.

 

Good day.

 

Actually if you read the article you would see he does cite the following as his basis:

 

Raw Material Costs

The next step is the acquisition of the raw materials, plastic in this case. Based on some initial web searches, it seems that the most likely type of plastic used by Games Workshop would be an Acetate Cellulosic, which is common in the toy industry. According to this source, the current market price in US dollars for this plastic would be 187 cents per pound, or $1.87 per pound. The weight of all components in the Land Raider model can be roughly approximated at 1 pound, which means that there is $1.87 of material in the model.

 

But lets look at the models themselves:

 

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s89/Grimtooth_photos/m1860185_99120101070_40kSMRedeemer2_445x319.jpg

 

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s89/Grimtooth_photos/header_32523.jpg

 

Level of detail is no comparison. As a purely imagined tank, the Land Raider is far more detailed then the Sherman.

 

How about what you actually get?

 

For MSRP of $30, Tamiya gives you are Sherman tank.

 

For MSRP of $62, GW gives you a Land Raider Crusader or a Land Raider Redeemer or if you magnetize, both. Along with all the accessories to outfit them as you please within the rules of Warhammer 40k.

 

Lets look at the model you have chosen as the comparison, a 1/48th model. Going to cite some modellers math found here:

 

http://www.warflag.com/shadow/cast/figuresize/figures.htm

 

And that the true scale you should be looking at is around 1/64th scale for 28mm GW models, not 1/48th which would affect the price as well when compared.

 

Lets look as a comparison at the sprues for each model:

 

The Sherman:

 

http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/misc/vehicles/michaelssherma.jpg

 

and then the LRR:

 

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg125/airbenderxiao/th_DSC02504.jpg

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg125/airbenderxiao/th_DSC02505.jpg

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg125/airbenderxiao/th_DSC02506.jpg

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg125/airbenderxiao/th_DSC02507.jpg

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg125/airbenderxiao/th_DSC02508.jpg

 

So again, another bad example for comparison.

[Phebrickid]

I have always thought something similar to Prathios about GW pricing, a drop in price would bring more profit to GW than what it'd loose by selling more in the long run to people, and enticing more people to make the investment - when I got into warhammer aged 8 (7 years ago) the prices were much more reasonable at closer to £15 for a box of marines, I'm not saying GW should half prices but a drop back maybe to £18 (2 years ago) even for your average box would be a good move IMO.

 

I also think his point about hobby store is a very good one, I don't even like going to their stores anymore because of the agressive (I don't mean violent ^_^ ) sell tactics they seem to be using more and more.

[Grimtooth]

I forgot to note, 4% loss on profits in this economy is not even close to being an indicator of price being the factor or a bad business model.

[Prathios]

If you clicked my link you would be able to see the word, "Tamiya" in the description. The tank I mentioned is a Tamiya tank, I chose it because its roughly the size of a land raider. It's slightly larger and 1/3 the price. So yes, GW is triple the price.

 

Except it is not at all the size of a land raider. Said Model is 55.5mm by 119mm (2.18 inches wide by and about 4.69 inches long) Now I don't know about you but my land raiders are much larger than that model and it runs $30 direct from Tamiya about half the cost of the land raider (The land raider is More than 6" long and 4.5 to 5 in wide by my reckoning), that tank is Rhino sized if not slightly smaller.

 

This tank is closer in dimensions Link(6.5 inches long) and runs $15 more than the land raider.

 

In addition Amazon is a Discount Retailer, so quoting prices from them is hardly accurate to what Retail for an item is.Rhino on amazonLand Raider

 

You're correct, I was looking at the box bellow for dimensions. Perhaps this is better http://www.amazon.com/NYA-48-M4-Sherman-Ta...pd_bxgy_t_img_b that is more highly detailed and 10 dollars more, as well as close to the same size and detail. My point remains. Also the fact that its a discount retailer only amplifies my point, amazon has no overhead so they can afford to do that. I purposely chose amazon for this reason.

[Prathios]

snip

 

Just off the top of my head, 1/64 scale would be the size of a matchbox car... not sure why you want to go that route...

Next, I posted a link above to a 1/35 Abrams that is 33 dollars. Go have a look see. See if you can find it's sprue as well. Also, I am still wondering why you have yet to address the overhead issues Ramses. Does this point bother you?

 

Edit: Found the sprue for you http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/revi...ya/tam35269.htm It's pretty similar to a LR in scope. My point remains.

[Grimtooth]

So let me get this straight,

 

GW cuts overhead by eliminating their only street presence and instead relies on their exisiting customer base, their retailers (who btw carry their competitors products), gimmicky sales promos at said retailers, and the internet at which time with the huge wealth they now have at their disposal they slash prices on their products. Here is the kicker,

 

Why?

 

GW isn't some altruistic entity looking to socially engineer the gaming community to include those that cannot afford their product. They look at their Land Raider and say,

 

"What is the most these suckers will pay for this box of plastic?"

 

Even if GW cut all their stores, what makes you think they are going to pass what savings that might bring in to you? They already know you will buy a LRC for $62. Unless there is some massed plan exodus from GW planned, they will continue to price at what you as the consumer is willing to pay.

[Something Wycked]

Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.

Publilius Syrus, ~100 BC

 

Essentially a universal truth. GW is just capitalizing on it.

[Prathios]

Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.

Publilius Syrus, ~100 BC

 

Essentially a universal truth. GW is just capitalizing on it.

 

True, but Andrew Carnegie proved that if you find ways to make it cheaper, and better, you make more money. It's economics 101. Also Ramses I laughed pretty hard at your point about losing a street presence and having to be on the same shelf as their competitors!!! OHHHHSSSS NNOOOO Free market competition!!! Whatever will we do? Not sure you noticed this but 99% of companies who make stuff... don't own their own stores. Games Workshop would be doing something nearly everyone has done before them, and cutting a massive chunk of their overhead out in order to push more product. Again, basic economics. My argument is about making GW more money, expanding their customer base, and creating a better company/consumer relationship. The only reason GW has what it has is the fantastic universe it has created. As a creative team GW did a great job inventing this universe, the BL writers have done a great job advancing it, and GW has only held it back by greedy (and foolish cause it makes them less money) business practices. Not to mention terrible codex writers... So excited my Black Templars are getting Ward for their codex too... :wub:

[Red Lost Soldier]

Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.

Publilius Syrus, ~100 BC

 

Essentially a universal truth. GW is just capitalizing on it.

Wonder why it is I always hear that (and so many other quotes) in the silky tones of Leonard Nimoy now...

 

I may not have as much of a problem with the prices, but I can't stand GW stores. I never go into them now. I'd much rather they did away with the store front operation also, focused on rules and models.

[the jeske]

Also Ramses I laughed pretty hard at your point about losing a street presence and having to be on the same shelf as their competitors!!! OHHHHSSSS NNOOOO Free market competition!!! Whatever will we do? Not sure you noticed this but 99% of companies who make stuff... don't own their own stores

I dont know how it looks in the States but durning the 90s GW more or less destroyed [as in actualy destroyed] any form of competition in europe . If someone was selling 50/50 GW/other firms stuff [but still sold a lot of stuff] he offten found GW stores near him [which had deals like buy 3 get the cheapest one free. or the had new stuff on time , while stuff for FLGS oddly was 2-3 late etc] or was forced to carry/buy range of models that would never sell [which for GW shops was nothing , but for FLGS was dead money] . GW doesnt like free market , they are a monopolist in UK and more or less a monopolist in main land europe . Free market competition is something they dislike . why ? because the product they give isnt very good. they are games that have better systems [like warmahordes] , they are firms that make better models [spanish and french firms] .GW is focused on the short term buyer that makes one or two huge purchase and be gone after a year or so and I GW could help it they would want the guy to not put their armies on e bay , as secondery market drops their own sales . this is why they like to focus on the younger .

Nothing bad in it , but If you expect that GW will ever lower prices on any of their good selling products to boost the sales , then your wrong . the prime target for GW wouldnt know that the price was lowered anyway as they are first time buyers anyway. The GW gains nothing , but loses something [extra cash].

[Grey Mage]

Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.

Publilius Syrus, ~100 BC

 

Essentially a universal truth. GW is just capitalizing on it.

 

True, but Andrew Carnegie proved that if you find ways to make it cheaper, and better, you make more money. It's economics 101.

And this is my point. High priced only works when your the only source- someone else is always willing to sell it for less.

 

And look what we have here- discount retailers, ebay, knock-offs and competitors springing up everywhere and thriving.

 

The fact that GWs got so many new companies coming in and taking its market share- whos profits are actively growing- shows that something is wrong with their market strategy and when we look at the major differences the first things that pops out are pricing and distribution. There are no PP stores, Rackham doesnt need stores, and theyre both growing, not dropping.

 

Jeskes right- they used to be high man on the totempole, and Im not sure the new team knows the right way to get them back there.

[breng77]

You're correct, I was looking at the box bellow for dimensions. Perhaps this is better http://www.amazon.com/NYA-48-M4-Sherman-Ta...pd_bxgy_t_img_b that is more highly detailed and 10 dollars more, as well as close to the same size and detail. My point remains. Also the fact that its a discount retailer only amplifies my point, amazon has no overhead so they can afford to do that. I purposely chose amazon for this reason.

 

That link is to the same exact tank as the first one. I have already shown that 1.) Tamiya models sold by Tamyia (and as far as I have seen in Brick and Mortar stores) are the same cost (or more) as GW models for similar models. 2.) GW models are also cheaper on Amazon then from GW, so showing Amazon (again a company who produces next to nothing) proves nothing except that other people can discount prices below MSRP, which we already know, if GW did this it would be Monopolistic as they would make it impossible for retailers to make a profit of any kind. Standard markup on most items is around 40%, large retailers (such as Amazon) can afford to sell at 20-30% because they are still making a profit, due to sheer number of sales. GW cannot do this, or they eliminate all of the smaller retailers from being able to sell anything (something that Amazon and the like are already doing, which scares me frankly since it eliminates local buisness, and no LGS means no place to play). You can argue on the price it costs GW to produce their product, but frankly most minature wargaming products are similarly expensive (Privateer press minis cost about the same, the game is slightly cheaper because armies are smaller)

[Grimtooth]

Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.

Publilius Syrus, ~100 BC

 

Essentially a universal truth. GW is just capitalizing on it.

 

True, but Andrew Carnegie proved that if you find ways to make it cheaper, and better, you make more money. It's economics 101.

And this is my point. High priced only works when your the only source- someone else is always willing to sell it for less.

 

And look what we have here- discount retailers, ebay, knock-offs and competitors springing up everywhere and thriving.

 

The fact that GWs got so many new companies coming in and taking its market share- whos profits are actively growing- shows that something is wrong with their market strategy and when we look at the major differences the first things that pops out are pricing and distribution. There are no PP stores, Rackham doesnt need stores, and theyre both growing, not dropping.

 

Jeskes right- they used to be high man on the totempole, and Im not sure the new team knows the right way to get them back there.

 

Grey, the point being is that all those cheaper competitors are not Warhammer 40k. I would not play any other game system except Warhammer 40k, so therefore I am not buying anything but GW product.

 

So as far as GW is concerned, they can price high because they are the only source of GW products. Whether that is through them directly or through them selling to retailers.

 

And seriously, GW doesn't care at what price retailers will lower their prices to, GW already has their arse covered in selling to the retailers in the first place.

 

So again, GW cutting all their storefronts is not going to make your hobby cheaper. They are not a charity, they are a business.

[Grey Mage]

So if GW doesnt care what prices retailers will lower their prices to then I ask you this:

 

Why did they attempt to shut down online retailers who didnt have a brick and mortar storefront a few years ago?

Why have they had alot of their blisters as direct order only?

Why are they currently removing half their product line from public sales?

 

And those competitors could be 40k- mantic games is close enough to play fantasy with I assure you, and theres a spanish company that makes gws 'finely crafted miniatures', even FW, look like cheap knockoffs. Ive seen sellers out there who are compatable with 40k too- mythics TWC springs immediately to mind for example.

 

Edit:

This isnt about them being a charity, its about wether or not this hobby will grow- and wether or not theyll survive as a business. If they price themselves out of the market, wich I truely believe they are doing, they do no one any good.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

If you think it's too expensive, get out. Simple as that. It's not like the other minature game are markedly cheaper than GW's, so I have to say the price is right.

And if you don't want to get out but want to save money, there is always eBay and brake fluid.

 

As a side note, I've been told by the two stores in my town that they don't want to sell blisters themselves, regardless of GW not shipping. Blisters never were a cash cow, as the expected stock you have to keep is far more "flexible" than sales. People wanted their stupid Wraithlord, not space marines with flamers.