Blood Fists vs. Blood Talons?

[Xenocidal Maniac]

I love dreadnoughts, and I have always loved Furioso dreads. I really like the look of a Furioso with Blood Fists, and I'd like to take one, but I just can't think of one good reason to take Blood Fists over Blood Talons.

 

Well, that's not true - I suppose it's easier to pop tanks and MCs with the Blood Fists. Ok, so there's one reason. Any others? Let me know your thoughts! Like I say, I really like the aesthetics of the Blood Fists, but rules-wise, it seems like Blood Talons win hands down.

[Zeller]

Character assassinations. Land a few strength 10 attacks and you just need one invuln to fail to kill the bugger. Plus, there's a good chance the best he's got is a melta bomb. Just make sure the rest of the squad isn't going to crush you or otherwise prepare before charging. Also, having a powerfist that strikes at initiative is awesome.

 

Otherwise I agree, blood talons are amazing. Twin DCFD with talons leave a bigger smear of bodies in their wake then Abaddon's black crusades.

[1Drop]

Talons for squishies

 

Fists for armour

 

I have both, fists on a furioso and talons on the DC one.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

I'd say talons all they way, as you can't allocate just a single attack to an IC anyway. The talons rip apart most IC and named characters in the game.

[Brother Nathan]

yea id say talons too. in a unit with an ic you want to kil the opponent is very unlikely to leave them in such a way as youll ge tto the character... though if you want fist take a frag cannon... cause usually the unit has a fist or something and the character dosent so youll want to take out one and not leave yourself open to the other( my opponent has eviscivators... en mass, )

[JamesI]

I'd say talons all they way, as you can't allocate just a single attack to an IC anyway. The talons rip apart most IC and named characters in the game.

 

Actually, if you have multiple attacks and are in base with a unit and an IC you can chose to allocate a single attack to the character (my priest died yesterday to a Trygon that way)

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

I'd say talons all they way, as you can't allocate just a single attack to an IC anyway. The talons rip apart most IC and named characters in the game.

 

Actually, if you have multiple attacks and are in base with a unit and an IC you can chose to allocate a single attack to the character (my priest died yesterday to a Trygon that way)

 

Great, I must not be that great on walker rules. I never use any veichles so... no my strong suit. Anyway, to avoid that in the future, keep the IC in the middle of the squad, in a way which doesn't allow somehing to get between two models in front of the I.C: attacker - squad mates : IC - He doesn't get to strike, but opponents don't get to hit him with a fist either.

[Red Fury]

Biker Nobs & Thunderwolf cav both get ID with S10 fists, that's two good reasons. Having rage and being able to kill whatever is in front of you (like a LR/ monolith/ battlewagon/ dreadknight/ ironclad) is another reason.

 

I think a good DC Furioso setup is with fists + magna-grapple + Flamer. Two S8 shots to try and pop armor or drag it closer and S10 fists to finish it off. A flamer in case you are next to some infantry before charging in with 5 x S10 I5 attacks, not bad at all and well rounded.

 

It's just that FC makes the talons so good on the DC dread, getting potentially unlimited s7 attacks on the charge is just incredible. Albeit a bit lacking for armor, MCs, and causing ID.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Biker Nobs & Thunderwolf cav both get ID with S10 fists, that's two good reasons. Having rage and being able to kill whatever is in front of you (like a LR/ monolith/ battlewagon/ dreadknight/ ironclad) is another reason.

 

I think a good DC Furioso setup is with fists + magna-grapple + Flamer. Two S8 shots to try and pop armor or drag it closer and S10 fists to finish it off. A flamer in case you are next to some infantry before charging in with 5 x S10 I5 attacks, not bad at all and well rounded.

 

It's just that FC makes the talons so good on the DC dread, getting potentially unlimited s7 attacks on the charge is just incredible. Albeit a bit lacking for armor, MCs, and causing ID.

 

Neither of those have any real or substantial I.V saves, so I'd say the odds of killing those with talons and fists are roughly the same.

I honestly don't really see a reason for taking fists over talons. Sure, there are veichles and other tough targets, but I'm sure they're almost equal in terms of mathammer even against biker nobs and t.wolfs. Then we also have the grapple and meltagun for veichles.

[Xenocidal Maniac]

I think a good DC Furioso setup is with fists + magna-grapple + Flamer. Two S8 shots to try and pop armor or drag it closer and S10 fists to finish it off. A flamer in case you are next to some infantry before charging in with 5 x S10 I5 attacks, not bad at all and well rounded.

 

You sure it's 5 attacks with Blood Fists on the charge? I think it's 4. 2 base + 1 for additional DCCW and +1 for charge.

[Leonaides]

I'd say talons all they way, as you can't allocate just a single attack to an IC anyway. The talons rip apart most IC and named characters in the game.

 

Actually, if you have multiple attacks and are in base with a unit and an IC you can chose to allocate a single attack to the character (my priest died yesterday to a Trygon that way)

 

Great, I must not be that great on walker rules. I never use any veichles so... no my strong suit. Anyway, to avoid that in the future, keep the IC in the middle of the squad, in a way which doesn't allow somehing to get between two models in front of the I.C: attacker - squad mates : IC - He doesn't get to strike, but opponents don't get to hit him with a fist either.

 

Although there are problems with this. During your reaction to the charge, you have to attempt to get your character into combat if at all possible, and a canny enemy can make you move within range of a fist.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

I'd say talons all they way, as you can't allocate just a single attack to an IC anyway. The talons rip apart most IC and named characters in the game.

 

Actually, if you have multiple attacks and are in base with a unit and an IC you can chose to allocate a single attack to the character (my priest died yesterday to a Trygon that way)

 

Great, I must not be that great on walker rules. I never use any veichles so... no my strong suit. Anyway, to avoid that in the future, keep the IC in the middle of the squad, in a way which doesn't allow somehing to get between two models in front of the I.C: attacker - squad mates : IC - He doesn't get to strike, but opponents don't get to hit him with a fist either.

 

Although there are problems with this. During your reaction to the charge, you have to attempt to get your character into combat if at all possible, and a canny enemy can make you move within range of a fist.

 

If only actual 40k was as easy as theory-hammer =) I'm just trying my best to impart the wisdom of my... less than honourable ways xD

[1Drop]

I'd say talons all they way, as you can't allocate just a single attack to an IC anyway. The talons rip apart most IC and named characters in the game.

 

Actually, if you have multiple attacks and are in base with a unit and an IC you can chose to allocate a single attack to the character (my priest died yesterday to a Trygon that way)

 

Great, I must not be that great on walker rules. I never use any veichles so... no my strong suit. Anyway, to avoid that in the future, keep the IC in the middle of the squad, in a way which doesn't allow somehing to get between two models in front of the I.C: attacker - squad mates : IC - He doesn't get to strike, but opponents don't get to hit him with a fist either.

 

Although there are problems with this. During your reaction to the charge, you have to attempt to get your character into combat if at all possible, and a canny enemy can make you move within range of a fist.

 

If only actual 40k was as easy as theory-hammer =) I'm just trying my best to impart the wisdom of my... less than honourable ways xD

 

You do tend to have a dirty trick or two up your sleave :lol:

[Brother-Captain Lucius]

I run both at 1750 in my Air Cav list with 3 Ravens:

 

Mephiston

Librarian w/ Jump Pack, Blood Lance, Shield/Sword

Furioso w/ Extra Armour, Blood Fists, Heavy Flamer

Furioso w/ Extra Armour, Blood Talons

Furioso w/ Extra Armour, Blood Talons

Assault Squad (5) w/ Meltagun, Power Fist, Infernus Pistol

Assault Squad (5) w/ Meltagun, Power Fist, Infernus Pistol

Storm Raven w/ Extra Armour, Twin Linked Multi-Melta, Twin Linked Assault Cannons

Storm Raven w/ Extra Armour, Twin Linked Multi-Melta, Twin Linked Assault Cannons

Storm Raven w/ Extra Armour, Twin Linked Multi-Melta, Twin Linked Assault Cannons

 

 

A very expensive list but also an incredibly hard hitting one.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

You sure it's 5 attacks with Blood Fists on the charge? I think it's 4. 2 base + 1 for additional DCCW and +1 for charge.

Furioso's are A 2(3) +1 on the charge = 4

DC Dreads are A 3(4) +1 on the charge = 5

 

One of the basic issues with Dreads in close combat is the unfortunate situation whereby they get locked in with a large squad, unable to dish out enough attacks to finish off the combat. An easy way to mitigate a walker is to tie it up with a cheap infantry unit.

 

DC dreads w/talons provide WS5 lightening claws + bonus attacks for unsaved wounds thus solving this basic problem.

 

I’ve even had the good fortune of cracking open a Landraider with the meltagun, charging the exposed infantry and killing them all to the man in the same turn. Not something you can count on but an eventuality that will keep your opponent fearful of the capabilities of this unit.

 

-OMG

[Red Fury]

You sure it's 5 attacks with Blood Fists on the charge? I think it's 4. 2 base + 1 for additional DCCW and +1 for charge.

Furioso's are A 2(3) +1 on the charge = 4

DC Dreads are A 3(4) +1 on the charge = 5

Yeah that's right, I was talking about a DC dread.

 

Neither of those have any real or substantial I.V saves, so I'd say the odds of killing those with talons and fists are roughly the same.

I honestly don't really see a reason for taking fists over talons. Sure, there are veichles and other tough targets, but I'm sure they're almost equal in terms of mathammer even against biker nobs and t.wolfs. Then we also have the grapple and meltagun for veichles.

That's not right. Nobs can take 5++ and TWC can take SSs for 3++ saves. That doesn't really change the main point here though, the fists are better with the ability to Instant Death multi-wound models.

 

If a DC dread charges a 5 model squad of either TWC or Nob bikers here are the results (no ++ used):

With Fists causing ID = 3 dead (3.33 wounds)

With Talons at S7 = 1 dead (6 wounds spread over 5 models using wound allocation)

 

An easy way to mitigate a walker is to tie it up with a cheap infantry unit.

Absolutely true, even with the Hflamer and 9 S10 attacks over two rounds of combat, a tac squad sergeant has a good chance to punk your dread with a fist of hammer. But, a dread kills elite infantry like non other and vehicles and MCs... Getting your specific units into grips with their desired target is what 40k is all about.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

You sure it's 5 attacks with Blood Fists on the charge? I think it's 4. 2 base + 1 for additional DCCW and +1 for charge.

Furioso's are A 2(3) +1 on the charge = 4

DC Dreads are A 3(4) +1 on the charge = 5

Yeah that's right, I was talking about a DC dread.

 

Neither of those have any real or substantial I.V saves, so I'd say the odds of killing those with talons and fists are roughly the same.

I honestly don't really see a reason for taking fists over talons. Sure, there are veichles and other tough targets, but I'm sure they're almost equal in terms of mathammer even against biker nobs and t.wolfs. Then we also have the grapple and meltagun for veichles.

That's not right. Nobs can take 5++ and TWC can take SSs for 3++ saves. That doesn't really change the main point here though, the fists are better with the ability to Instant Death multi-wound models.

 

If a DC dread charges a 5 model squad of either TWC or Nob bikers here are the results (no ++ used):

With Fists causing ID = 3 dead (3.33 wounds)

With Talons at S7 = 1 dead (6 wounds spread over 5 models using wound allocation)

 

edit:

Anyone who wants may feel free to add 25 points for each TWC. Less to kill, the merrier =)

 

An easy way to mitigate a walker is to tie it up with a cheap infantry unit.

Absolutely true, even with the Hflamer and 9 S10 attacks over two rounds of combat, a tac squad sergeant has a good chance to punk your dread with a fist of hammer. But, a dread kills elite infantry like non other and vehicles and MCs... Getting your specific units into grips with their desired target is what 40k is all about.

 

Rulebook says:

 

Once you have determined the number of unsaved

wounds suffered by a group of identical multiplewound

models, you must remove whole models as

casualties where possible. Wounds may not be ‘spread

around’ to avoid removing models. Track any excess

wounds with a note or a marker as noted above.

Multiple-wound models in the unit that are unique are

rolled for individually and their unsaved wounds must

be recorded separately.

 

 

There we go, 3 dead and 1 wounded, unless all are unique.

[Focke]

The problem is that with nob bikers, and twc it is very easy to make them all unique. This is especially true for units as small as five.

[Red Fury]

Yeah, the unique loadouts is what makes them so good. The wound allocation shenanigans game is very powerful and makes it especially difficult to remove models with 2 wounds and unique kit for each one, which is why ID weapons win.

 

We can do it with our VV too, it helps, but it's just not as good when you don't have the 2 wounds per model like nobs and twc.

[Drachnon]

I personally like the blood talons better, against things like marines they just own (small squads tend to be wiped before they can use powerfists).

Also the chance of a normal sergeant with powerfist taking out a dreadnought in one go is not as big as some people tend to think. 50% chance to hit and 50% on armor penetration (against DC dread, furioso 33%) and assuming you penetrate a 33% chance to destroy it in one go.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Yeah, on the bright side though, if someone is up to some shenanigans with the Nobs, one or two of them are not ging to be threats as there will (probably) be fewer with klaws =)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If I know there is a good chance I will be going up against TWC then I bring Bloodfists... they kill just about everything including liths.

 

G :P

[1Drop]

Would you say dual fists is better or 1 fist and frag cannon? I wanna build a furioso but not sure whether to go frag and fist or 2 fists!

[shatter]

Oh, btw... the Sanguinor, priest and BT DC dreads is pretty awesome. It kinda crosses a threshold in mathhammer wounds where the average wounds done is close to 10 vs MEQ. Not many MEQ units are bigger than that...

 

what fist?

 

edit: oops, priest not required for DC dread. was thinking of dreads in general when I typed 'priest'.

[teemoki]

You sure it's 5 attacks with Blood Fists on the charge? I think it's 4. 2 base + 1 for additional DCCW and +1 for charge.

Furioso's are A 2(3) +1 on the charge = 4

DC Dreads are A 3(4) +1 on the charge = 5

 

One of the basic issues with Dreads in close combat is the unfortunate situation whereby they get locked in with a large squad, unable to dish out enough attacks to finish off the combat. An easy way to mitigate a walker is to tie it up with a cheap infantry unit.

 

DC dreads w/talons provide WS5 lightening claws + bonus attacks for unsaved wounds thus solving this basic problem.

 

I’ve even had the good fortune of cracking open a Landraider with the meltagun, charging the exposed infantry and killing them all to the man in the same turn. Not something you can count on but an eventuality that will keep your opponent fearful of the capabilities of this unit.

 

-OMG

 

I dream of this day ...I've popped a battle wagon and killed 10 lootas inside but not as cool!