Land Speeder Loadouts

[Purdy81]

Ive just got my hands on a couple of land speeders, one squadron is gonna have typhoon launchers and heavy bolters. The other squadron is gonna to be tornado class and I was planning on having a multimelta, with another weapon, I cant decide if i should go with an assault cannon and a second multi melta? has feedback on how either of these variations perform?

 

the multi assault cannon seems a bit pricey at 100 points but then its got a decent output for infantry too, where as 2 meltas is better than one and 20 points cheaper but its only ever gonna be usefull against Armour

 

What do you think?

[DarkGuard]

I know it's neither of the above, but I'd say go for the heavy flamer as your second weapon on the melta Speeders. Surprised you haven't picked up on this before, although I suppose the forum's been a bit quiet about Speeders recently, but nearly everything who sticks a multi-melta on a Speeder sticks a heavy flamer on it as well.

 

Sounds a bit odd though, as you're giving an anti-tank unit an anti-infantry gun. Let me elaborate. The MM/HF Speeders works under the assumption that your Speeder is always going to be moving 12" a turn, minimum. This means that it can only fire one weapon per turn. Giving it another multi-melta or the assault cannon to help with anti-tank means that you must either move it slower, which you don't want to do when close to the enemy, or you're wasting points on a weapon that you should be using for blowing up tanks but can't.

 

Giving it a heavy flamer, however, means you give the Speeder flexibility. Once all the tanks are dead and infantry are out you can switch to your heavy flamer and start burning them. It basically allows the Speeder handle something else, as it's only shooting one gun anyway moving 12". You get the choice to land next to a tank with your multi-melta, or next to an infantry squad with your heavy flamer. While the anti-tank options may seem more attractive if your opponent runs mass mech or Land Raiders, the heavy flamer can also be very handy for getting that squad off an objective. And remember, you're operating up close with your MM so range isn't an issue.

 

70pts, MM/HF Speeder, two of them in separate slots, one of my favourite buys, and nearly always in my list. Use correctly your opponent will find it hard to take them out before they take him out. Pure gold IMO.

 

If you only want to think about the MM or the assault cannon however, I'd say MM as it's cheaper, and focuses the Land Speeder, giving it redundancy. You can suffer a weapon destroyed result and still blow up tanks. The assault cannon is horribly priced, and for anti-tank the additional MM will be better, for anti-infantry the heavy flamer will be better.

[TyrionTheImp]

+1 for the Heavy Flamer, it's almost a no brainer to me.

 

For 70 points I get a fast skimmer that can threaten infantry and tanks, block tank movement, and deep strike? Sounds awesome to me. There will never be a target a MM/HF Land Speeder can't shoot at.

 

Many people swear by Typhoons, but I find them too fragile for backfield elements. Anything that can hit that range can penetrate AV10 with ease, and unless you have some REALLY scary things, against a savvy opponent they won't last terribly long in most cases. Also, 48" range seems slightly redundant to me on a fast skimmer that can move fast to blow up stuff with meltas and flamers.

[DarkGuard]

But the point to Typhoons is that they use their speed not to get close, but to get the shots they want. A combi-pred is stationary if it wants to fire all its weapons. A Dev squad is stationary if it wants to fire. A Rifleman can only move 6" and fire. All of these units are more durable than Typhoons, and pack more or less the same amount of firepower. But they are limited in their mobility. Unless you deploy them in the corners most of the times you'll be getting front armour shots with these guys, or for some of them fire lanes will be closed down unless you deploy high up.

 

The Typhoons don't suffer this problem. 12" movement, and they can zip around to get a side armour shot, or move to get a clear LoS. And have you seen what four frag templates dead on do to Marines, let alone infantry?

 

I completely agree with you about their fragility, and that anything the enemy can shoot at 48" will easily pen a Typhoon. However, for 90pts it's a risk I'm willing to take. To really make them survivable, you need to flood your opponent's targets with many, many different and dangerous targets, both short and long ranged. At long range I have two Rifleman Dreads and a scoring las plas Razorback to draw fire. At close range I have my two MM/HF Speeders, a Vindicator, two Tactical squads and Honour Guard/Sternguard (depending on list) to draw firepower. None of my units shout "shoot me" apart from my Vindicator and elite unit, which is good, as that means the Typhoons will often have a few turns to wreck havoc, and when my opponent turns to take them out it's too late.

 

Of course, a canny opponent will target them early on, like a regular Space Wolf opponent who has had many units of Long Fangs wrecked by my Typhoons, but then he's diverting firepower from other units in my army, so those units can do something. In the end, like most things, they need to be in the right list. However, despite their fragility, their low points cost, firepower and mobility means there are a lot of right lists where they are concerned.

[Koremu]

Any enemy weapon with a 48" range and high STR which would easily pop a Typhoon should really be firing at something else...

 

If they are firing at your Typhoons then they aren't molesting your Rhinos, is my generalised opinion.

[Project.2501]

Any enemy weapon with a 48" range and high STR which would easily pop a Typhoon should really be firing at something else...

 

This isn't quite true. I have 2 (almost) naked predators (w/HKMs) that are my anti-speeder patrol due to their prevelance. That's 60-70 points (pretty much) dedicated to taking out your 70pts and still retaining movement (albeit 6") and usefuleness at other targets with much better armor that can also shield the rest of my armor (unlike landspeeders which are too fragile even with thier coversave).

 

Also Hydras, Autocannon HWTsand 2xTL Autocannon dreads LOVE speeders.

 

 

If they are firing at your Typhoons then they aren't molesting your Rhinos, is my generalised opinion.

 

 

Meanwhile, my 3 tac squads (or combat squads) with lascannons take out your rhinos/heavier armored threats.

 

 

 

 

@the OP:

 

About the only weapon that's not worth it on speeders is the assault cannon.

[Koremu]

Any enemy weapon with a 48" range and high STR which would easily pop a Typhoon should really be firing at something else...

 

This isn't quite true. I have 2 (almost) naked predators (w/HKMs) that are my anti-speeder patrol due to their prevelance. That's 60-70 points (pretty much) dedicated to taking out your 70pts and still retaining movement (albeit 6") and usefuleness at other targets with much better armor that can also shield the rest of my armor (unlike landspeeders which are too fragile even with thier coversave).

 

Also Hydras, Autocannon HWTsand 2xTL Autocannon dreads LOVE speeders.

 

I move 12" and can still fire, you only move 6" (and have to sit still to fire the HK). More importantly, I'm super-mobile while you're ground-bound.=

 

You're unlikely to get a shot at the Typhoons unless I've already fired at your Predators. I'll agree your Predators are a threat to a close support Land Speeder (the typical MM/HF variant, say), but not to a Typhoon.

 

If they are firing at your Typhoons then they aren't molesting your Rhinos, is my generalised opinion.

 

 

Meanwhile, my 3 tac squads (or combat squads) with lascannons take out your rhinos/heavier armored threats.

 

 

@the OP:

 

About the only weapon that's not worth it on speeders is the assault cannon.

 

You take Lascannon on Tactical Squads? And do you take 3 Tactical Squads in 1500?

 

I'm not sure how you afford the points.

[DarkGuard]

*sigh*, why do people always think it's as simple as "my super awesome Preds will knock out your Speeders while my super accurate Tactical lascannons that can't fail to do damage will take all your other tanks out in one turn".

 

It is never that simple.

 

I'm sorry, but this was happening yesterday with people in my LGS just rolling dice about a hypothetical situation. It will not happen like that. You can talk all about how your list will do this and that, but remember you need to roll the dice first. So you fire your autocannons at my Speeders sitting at the rear of my list. Fantastic, that means my Tactical squads are still in their Rhinos, or my Honour Guard are still protected in their Rhino, or my melta Speeders have got closer. You fire at that one unit at the back, and in a proper list built to accommodate Typhoons you've got another 6 threats active against you.

 

Typhoons don't get shot at that much because they hang in backfield and armies that include them tend to flood midfield with other threats. Tactical squads, normally with MMs, Sternguard, MM/HF Speeders, Vindys, combat unit of choice, all of these will be higher priority than Typhoons, so they get free reign. This isn't speculation, this is experience of having used Typhoons for a long time. Unless they destroy a unit early on, they aren't targeted until later because there are bigger threats.

 

MM/HF Speeders are another issue entirely, and of course they die quickly. Their weapons are nasty and they fly in close, they will die. However, people tend to be smart with them. They will hug terrain, come in from reserve, sometimes from the board edge, sometimes through deep striking. I've had some good games when my MM/HF Speeders come in from deep strike and take something out, and then my enemy diverts all firepower to that because it's in his deployment zone. Fantastic, I've just kept a few more units because you went after my Land Speeder.

 

I could sit here and say that my rifleman will stun lock your Preds, while my Typhoons will hug cover and then hit side armour, taking them out. And then my MM/HF Speeder comes down and my Tactical squads slaughter all your tanks and all that, but I don't because I know it's not that simple. Terrain, deployment, movement, threat evaluation, all of these are significant and make such discussions near pointless outside of a game. Discussing things you could have done differently after a game is fine, that's learning to be a better player. But discussing hypothetical situations gives a false sense of what will happen, when the truth of it is infinitely more complex.

[Project.2501]

Autocannons are cheap, highly available, and the best way to take out AV10 skimmers due to multiple shots at range with high strength. Lascannons are for (almost) garaunteeing taking out transports, amon other threats. I honestly do not understand how this is not common knowledge.

 

The first target would be immediate threats/fast movers MM speeders that are on the board for example, with my preds, and i have no reservations about moving 6" to get into a better shooting position (negating the HKM) if need be.

 

Then i concentrate on your troops. Then i concentrate on your armor. This is my playstyle. Not everyone plays as i do.

 

Threats do change based on mission/opponent, i agree, however, this was an example of a not completely true statement.

 

@Koremu:

I can PM you my SM TAC list if you'd like to verify my statements.

[Koremu]

Autocannons are cheap, highly available, and the best way to take out AV10 skimmers due to multiple shots at range with high strength. Lascannons are for (almost) garaunteeing taking out transports, amon other threats. I honestly do not understand how this is not common knowledge.

Because it's false. A single BS4 Lascannon has less than 25% chance to neutralise (Destroy or Immobilise) a Rhino. That's not very good odds for a 180 point investment.

 

I don't disagree with your statement on the mathematical effectiveness of 2 (or 4) shots at STR 7 vs. AV10, what I (and Darkguard) take issue with is the assumption that you will be able to always see the skimmer. I can't remember the last time I allowed an opponent to get pure LOS on my Land Speeders. On any board with reasonable terrain the Land Speeder has a 12" movement and the ability to hop over LOS blockers. Even with a 6" movement you can't match the Speeders mobility.

 

Incidentally, vs. Speeders Dreads are better than Predators because their ability as Walkers to move around within - and up and down levels on - terrain is superior.

[Project.2501]

Because it's false. A single BS4 Lascannon has less than 25% chance to neutralise (Destroy or Immobilise) a Rhino. That's not very good odds for a 180 point investment.

 

Again, a not quite true statement. This is versus smoke (or hull down), which is one round, unless your opponent is leapfrogging, in which case it can last however many turns they have smoke equiped vehicles. In which case, i can still shoot at other threats, move my own vehicles, and then combine arms against the steam locomotive leapfrog.

 

I don't disagree with your statement on the mathematical effectiveness of 2 (or 4) shots at STR 7 vs. AV10, what I (and Darkguard) take issue with is the assumption that you will be able to always see the skimmer. I can't remember the last time I allowed an opponent to get pure LOS on my Land Speeders. On any board with reasonable terrain the Land Speeder has a 12" movement and the ability to hop over LOS blockers. Even with a 6" movement you can't match the Speeders mobility.

 

If you're completely hiding your speeders with no LOS to me, then that's fantastic, I can now concentrate on other threats, as they won't be shooting me either. Since you have to move your entire army before you shoot anything, you will have to allow me LOS if you're going to take a shot at me while possibly blockig shots from the rest of your army. Also, my vehicles are mobile and true LOS makes it extremely hard to completel conceal anything. That's where my assumptions of being able to see you come from.

 

Incidentally, vs. Speeders Dreads are better than Predators because their ability as Walkers to move around within - and up and down levels on - terrain is superior.

 

No argument.

[Koremu]

Because it's false. A single BS4 Lascannon has less than 25% chance to neutralise (Destroy or Immobilise) a Rhino. That's not very good odds for a 180 point investment.

 

Again, a not quite true statement. This is versus smoke (or hull down), which is one round, unless your opponent is leapfrogging, in which case it can last however many turns they have smoke equiped vehicles. In which case, i can still shoot at other threats, move my own vehicles, and then combine arms against the steam locomotive leapfrog.

 

No, that's without smoke. BS4 = 66% chance to hit, STR9 vs AV11 (pen on 3s) is 44% chance to hit and pen, which results in 22% chance to hit, pen and neutralise.

 

Add another 2 or 3% for the chance to glance & immobilise.

 

I don't disagree with your statement on the mathematical effectiveness of 2 (or 4) shots at STR 7 vs. AV10, what I (and Darkguard) take issue with is the assumption that you will be able to always see the skimmer. I can't remember the last time I allowed an opponent to get pure LOS on my Land Speeders. On any board with reasonable terrain the Land Speeder has a 12" movement and the ability to hop over LOS blockers. Even with a 6" movement you can't match the Speeders mobility.

 

If you're completely hiding your speeders with no LOS to me, then that's fantastic, I can now concentrate on other threats, as they won't be shooting me either. Since you have to move your entire army before you shoot anything, you will have to allow me LOS if you're going to take a shot at me while possibly blockig shots from the rest of your army. Also, my vehicles are mobile and true LOS makes it extremely hard to completel conceal anything. That's where my assumptions of being able to see you come from.

 

I'm not completely hiding my speeders from your whole army, just from things that are a threat to my speeders.

 

And I rarely have trouble hiding Speeders if I need to - hills, bunkers, even a Land Raider will do the trick

 

Unless you are fighting on a board that is flat and has minimal scenery, Speeders supermobility is great for fire avoidance.

[Project.2501]

... Without smoke... BS4 = 66% chance to hit, STR9 vs AV11 (pen on 3s) is 44% chance to hit and pen, which results in 22% chance to hit, pen and neutralise.

 

How exactly did you get from a 44% chance to hit and pen, to a 22% chance to hit pen and neutralize? If I'm missing something please let me know.

 

66% chance to hit, 44% chance to pen, 29.6% chance to stun/immobilise/destroy on the pen.

66% chance to hit, 16.6% chance to glance, 5% chance to stun/immobilise on the glance.

 

I don't disagree with your statement on the mathematical effectiveness of 2 (or 4) shots at STR 7 vs. AV10, what I (and Darkguard) take issue with is the assumption that you will be able to always see the skimmer. I can't remember the last time I allowed an opponent to get pure LOS on my Land Speeders. On any board with reasonable terrain the Land Speeder has a 12" movement and the ability to hop over LOS blockers. Even with a 6" movement you can't match the Speeders mobility.

 

I don't have to match it's manueverability to be able to get a shot at it. Either you're hiding it away from my entire army (which is extremely hard to do) or it can potentially be shot at.

 

I'm not completely hiding my speeders from your whole army, just from things that are a threat to my speeders.

 

Everything in my army is a potential threat (has a chance at pen/glancing) your speeders. The only options you have are to completely hide it (again, hard to do with TLOS, and fine by me as then it's not shooting), or use it and risk me returnning fire. I understand you are trying to say that due to the speeders manueverability, you foregoe the complete hiding of your speeders and instead try to minimize the return fire against them. I agree wholeheartidly with this approach. Due to your opponent's army also being able to move however, and with TLOS, this is not always as easy as 'sounds'.

 

And I rarely have trouble hiding Speeders if I need to - hills, bunkers, even a Land Raider will do the trick

 

Unless you are fighting on a board that is flat and has minimal scenery, Speeders supermobility is great for fire avoidance.

 

 

I do not play on boards without scenery/cover, I play warhammer 40k 5th edition with TLOS rules and an army that actually will move/reposition in it's movement phase, no stay castled up in a corner of the board allowing my opponents to leapfrog all over the rest of the board at will.

 

If the people you play against do this, I'd suggest playing with them/helping them out as opposed to playing against them.

[Koremu]

Ahh, you don't use XA. Explains a lot. I do.

 

Your scenery must not be as bulky as mine. Unless your entire army is in a block, there's no way you can avoid a Typhoon being able to blind-side sections of your army even if they move. Same goes for the boards at GWHQ, which have similarly bulky terrain pieces.

 

And no, I don't castle. I just shove three Vindicators down your throat which you have to respond to.

[DarkGuard]

Project.2501, I think you are completely missing the point here. Koremu isn't saying he's hiding his Speeders from everything in your army, that would be ridiculous and a waste of points. What he's saying is he hides them from the stuff that can easily take them down, like Rifleman and combi-preds, while taking out other sections of your army. If he can get a clear shot at your Rhino but be hidden or at least 50% hidden from your big guns then that's a situation to be in with Speeders, and with their mobility, and the size of common terrain (like cities of ruin terrain) and vehicles it's not that hard to block LoS to Speeders while presenting them with targets.

 

Speeders are fragile. This is a fact. They are AV10 and fall over to a stiff breeze, doubly so in squadrons. However, a good player will build a list around them. A good player will position them in places that limit their weaknesses and maximise their strengths. I run a squadron of two Land Speeder Typhoons in my 1750pts list. So an autocannon, with good rolls, can take them both out. Fine by me. It's also unlikely you'll be focussing on them first, what with my two MM/HF Speeders, 3 Rhinos with squads, las plas Razorback, Vindicator and two Rifleman. 11 AV targets, and if you're choosing to concentrate on those Typhoons, fine by me. But you won't, because they'll be using cover, and the fact that half of my army is sitting infront of your deployment zone with a demo cannon and melta to their advantage. With proper terrain usage and covering units I can easily block of LoS to half of your army with my Speeders, and concentrate on the easier to kill things.

 

As a little fact for you, one from a game, I've used the above list in 4 games, no changes. During those games I've only lost 1 Typhoon from there, and in another I did lose all the weapons, but they contested an objective, so its fine. And the Speeder that died? It died to a Monolith teleporting into my backfield, the next one then helped take the Necron army to phase out, so not too bad. As for MM/HF Speeders, I'm pretty sure they've all been shot out of the air, but then that happens to them, when you consider where they operate. But Typhoons are deceptively resilient, especially when used in the right army. All I'm saying is everything isn't as clear cut as it is, and while Mathhammer and stats are all fine, I'd much rather listen to the stats I get from the battlefield. And they say Speeders normally live long enough to their job, and used right can live for a long time.

[Project.2501]

I understand you are trying to say that due to the speeders manueverability, you foregoe the complete hiding of your speeders and instead try to minimize the return fire against them. I agree wholeheartidly with this approach. Due to your opponent's army also being able to move however, and with TLOS, this is not always as easy as 'sounds'.

 

 

I've addressed this. If it works/has worked for you, go with it.

 

My contest was with the comment:

Any enemy weapon with a 48" range and high STR which would easily pop a Typhoon should really be firing at something else...

 

Which, as i said, isn't quite true. The thread devovlved from there and for that I apologize to the OP/Mods/Forums members as a whole. But my position remains firm.