Nemesis Great Sword

[Vann Harl]

can the NDK using a greatsword re-roll armour penetration rolls if the result is only a glance?

The rule says 'failed armour penetration rolls' - is a glancing considered successful?

[The Holy Heretic]

You do damage, this should be a good sign that you've penetrated the vehicle, so I'd say: "No!" :angry:

[Angelis Mortis]

I would say "no" because it specifically mentions "failed penetration rolls" and not "failed penetration results". If it glances it did have an effect. However, I would agree that it is kind of dubious in its wording.

[Doomaflatchi]

It says failed "armor penetration rolls". What is an "armor penetration roll"? It's the d6 added to your Strength which is then compared against the enemy's AV (BRBp60). If you equal or exceed the AV, then the roll is a success. Penetrating and Glancing hits are an entirely different mechanic, and not within the scope of this rule.

 

I don't think there should be any confusion here; re-rolling "failed" Glances would be mechanically equivalent to re-rolling "failed" hits because they didn't Rend. They're two separate mechanics in two separate parts of the phase.

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

dont forget your extra D6 for a monstrous creature. How you would ever fail at penetrating a tanks armor at str6 plus average roll of 7 is beyond me. 6 +7= avg 13. Unless your up against a land raider, you wont have a problem anyway

[number6]

dont forget your extra D6 for a monstrous creature. How you would ever fail at penetrating a tanks armor at str6 plus average roll of 7 is beyond me. 6 +7= avg 13. Unless your up against a land raider, you wont have a problem anyway

It's not that unlikely that you'll roll a 4 (or 3) on two dice. The reroll is definitely useful.

 

If you're up against a land raider, you'd be better off attacking using your doomfists (at S10 + 2d6).

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

well, depending on how fast that land raider moved. A zippiy land raider will be easier to hit with the great sword, not so much with the doomfists. Math hammer time?

 

Ok, so I'm assuming a Dreadknight armed with both a great sword and a doomfist. 4 attacks on the charge. Trying to hit a 12 movement land raider

 

Greatsword, hitting on 6's has a 0.667 chance to hit, reroll bumps that up to 1.333

Damage, st6 +2D6, need an 8 to glance, 9 to pen.

Chance for glance, out of 36 possible rolls, the chance for 8 or better is 0.417

Chance for pen, out of 36 possible results, chance for 9 or better is 0.278

 

so among hitting and doing damage, the glance stands at 1.110 of a chance of doing something to the LRfor the pen 0.74 of a chance ACCOUNTING FOR PENETRATION REROLL

 

Hammerhand

Greatsword, hitting on 6's has a 0.667 chance to hit, reroll bumps that up to 1.333

Passing Psychic Test happens at .917

Damage, st7 +2D6, need a 7 to glance, 8 to pen.

Chance for glance, out of 36 possible rolls, the chance for 7 or better is 0.583

Chance for pen, out of 36 possible results, chance for 8 or better is 0.417

 

so among hitting and doing damage, the glance stands at 1.422 of a chance of doing something to the LRfor the pen 1.018 of a chance ACCOUNTING FOR PENETRATION REROLL

 

 

 

Next, the doomfist, hitting on 6's has a 0.667 chance to hit

Damage, str10 + 2D6, needs a 4 to glance, 5 to pen.

chance for glance, out of 36 results, the chance for 4 or better is 0.833

chance for pen, out of 36 results, the chance for 5 or better is .722

 

so among hitting and doing damage, the glance stands at 0.556 of a chance of doing something to the LRfor the pen 0.481 of a chance

 

 

*edit* Pending one remembers to cast hammerhand and succeeds, the chances of doing damage with the greatsword is a little bit greater then just the doomfist.

 

So if you fail your hammerhand roll, use a doomfist. gotta hit that pest first though. for lighter vehicles, the greatsword would come out on top for me though, since you wont need the str10 for a definent kill, just more reroll hits. But thats why I'd equip a dreadknight with both, doomfist for high armor, great sword for easily smashed vehicles

[Ashe Darke]

Don't forget the NDK has Hammer Hand and can go up to S7 with the sword.

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

good point, almost forgot, editing that in now

[Ashe Darke]

This is vs a Raider though and they're hardly common place. What you're most likely gonna meet is smaller vehicles with either rear AV10 or 11 which is where the sword comes into it's own, making up for those bad rolls and maintaining consistency. But yeah the fist is free. I'd still be inclined to use the sword against a Land Raider because re-rolls are diamond.

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

Exactly, thinking about it in this way, it just shows how the greatsword can slap a vehicle silly even when your facing something as difficult as a LR moving full out. hitting weaker vehicles is just icing on the cake. I would only use the doomfist if i needed 4+ to hit a LR or a stationary one.

 

It also comes down to fluff, what do you think looks cooler, a dreadknight charging in sword pointed forward spearing into the land raider, and slicing it assunder? or leaping in with the fist, winding up for a massive walloping, leaving a gaping hole in what was once a hull?

[Brother Valerius]

I disagree that Land Raiders aren't commonplace, and in any case, they are what you need to plan to face. If you just want something for popping AV12, a psyfleman dreadnought will function quite nicely, and still be decent for AV13. AV14 is where those gems are going to fall short, and imo you should be considering them when evaluating a dreadknight's AT role.

 

With the probability analysis, don't forget that the doomfist loadout gets one more attack than the greatsword loadout. That means that with a greatsword, you have 88.2% chance to pen at least once in 3 attacks, while with doomfists you have 92.7% chance to pen at least once in 4 attacks.

[Ashe Darke]

Yeah you need something that can deal with with AV14 but I wouldn't hinder my ability to take out weaker vehicles better to ensure that the few times I come across a Raider I'll have a slightly better chance.

 

That said I run Dreads and for AV14 I use S10 hammer on SS, my Vindicare and psycannons. But if I was to take a Dread Knight I'd still take the sword rather than 2 fists just in case of AV14 as the chances are that in most games you won't come up against vehicles with rear armour AV14.

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

curse my noobiness! I also forgot about the reroll for failed penetration, it pretty much gaurantees some kickassery. just proves I dont mathhammer often enough.

[Drachnon]

I was just doing the math for myself because it seemed so low before I noticed your last post :D

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

haha yea, I didnt bother editing it again, I have to leave work anyway, but just multiply the chances to glance and pen by 2 for the greatsword, and the results are far and beyond the doomfist. Pretty much worth using the greatsword every time with those numbers

[Zagman]

dont forget your extra D6 for a monstrous creature. How you would ever fail at penetrating a tanks armor at str6 plus average roll of 7 is beyond me. 6 +7= avg 13. Unless your up against a land raider, you wont have a problem anyway

It's not that unlikely that you'll roll a 4 (or 3) on two dice. The reroll is definitely useful.

 

If you're up against a land raider, you'd be better off attacking using your doomfists (at S10 + 2d6).

Unless the LR is moving...

[Chucku]

So Doomfists are S10? I thought they were S6 on the DreadKnight.

[nurglez]

its generally assumed that doomfists make a dread knight S10, otherwise it would be pointless for dread knight's to come with them.

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

dont forget your extra D6 for a monstrous creature. How you would ever fail at penetrating a tanks armor at str6 plus average roll of 7 is beyond me. 6 +7= avg 13. Unless your up against a land raider, you wont have a problem anyway

It's not that unlikely that you'll roll a 4 (or 3) on two dice. The reroll is definitely useful.

 

If you're up against a land raider, you'd be better off attacking using your doomfists (at S10 + 2d6).

Unless the LR is moving...

 

read the math hammer for a 12 inch moving land raider.

 

The math hammer is now edited, even a LR moving its full distance still has a rediculous chance of taking damage from the greatsword. its too full of win to deny taking it

[Ashe Darke]

I think your wording on the math hammering isn't quite right. Surely you mean you will get X amount of penetrating hits from your attacks rather than an X chance of penetrating as your numbers for the sword are greater than 1 and you can always just fail at rolling over and over.

[number6]

So Doomfists are S10? I thought they were S6 on the DreadKnight.

The DK is Str 6, but Doomfists double its strength just as it would for a Walker, as the Doomfist follows all the rules for dread CCWs.

 

(NOTE: This is the commonly accepted RAW/RAI of the rules, and pretty much everybody plays this way. If you want to argue the RAW semantics, there are other topics devoted to this already. Go there if you want to hash it out. Keep the rules argument OUT OF THIS THREAD.)

 

FWIW, as much as I think the greatsword is awesomesauce, I so far haven't been buying it and instead taking either nothing or a heavy incinerator. But either way, that leaves me with 4 S10 attacks, 5 on the charge. One of the reasons I'm favoring the plain Doomfists is for the extra S10 attack. There are a lot of things that are Toughness 5 around that need insta-killing, not the least of which are Thunderwolves, which are very very popular where I play. The ability to instakill T5 targets is not to be snuffed at. I want every chance I can get to do so.

 

Anyway, for comparison's sake, here are the odds for a non-greatsword-equipped DK to tackle fast moving armour with rear AV 10 (i.e., just about every vehicle not a leman russ or land raider) and rear AV 14 (i.e., land raiders). (If you're up against a Monolith ... well, everybody will have to use the Doomfist, won't they? :lol: And the non-greatsword equipped DK will have an edge since it has the extra attack.)

 

DK w/2 Doomfists

 

against fast-moving rear AV 10

5/6 (to hit) x 36/36 (automatically penetrates) = 83.3% chance to penetrate (no glances possible)

 

against fast-moving rear AV 14

5/6 (to hit) x 3/36 (to glance) = 6.9% chance to glance

5/6 (to hit) x 30/36 (to penetrate) = 69.4% chance to penetrate

 

 

@T3mpl@r Crusade: I think you miscalculated your numbers. You can never have a 133% chance to do something! :lol:

 

If you've only got 4 attacks on the charge with the Doomfist (because you bought the Greatsword) the odds of success are as follows (following same methodology as above):

 

against fast-moving rear AV 10: 66.7% chance to penetrate (no glances possible)

against fast-moving rear AV 14: 5.5% chance to glance, 55.5% chance to penetrate

 

And let's therefore recalculate the odds for the Greatsword, with and without Hammerhand, shall we?

 

But first, to keep things simple, let's first calculate the odds of hitting with 4 attacks including reroll, as it's a little involved. One attack has a 1/6 chance of hitting, which means that 4 attacks have a 4/6 chance of hitting. Which means there's a 2/6 chance of a miss. Which means that 2 times out of 6 attempts, you'll have another 1/6 chance to hit. That calculates as follows:

 

4/6 + (2/6 x 1/6) = 24/36 + 2/36 = 26/36 = 72.2% chance to hit at least once

 

I'll follow the same methodology to calculate the penetration roll odds, since you get rerolls for them as well.

 

With that in hand, we can proceed to the final odds!

 

DK w/Greatsword @ Str 6 (no Hammerhand)

 

against fast-moving rear AV 10

 

(26/36) (to hit) x (3/36 + (33/36 x 3/36)) (to glance) = 26/36 x 207/1296 = 11.5% chance to glance

(26/36) (to hit) x (30/36 + (6/36 x 30/36)) (to penetrate) = 26/36 x 1260/1296 = 70.2% chance to penetrate

 

against fast-moving rear AV 14

 

(26/36) (to hit) x (5/36 + (31/36 x 5/36)) (to glance) = 26/36 x 335/1296 = 18.7% chance to glance

(26/36) (to hit) x (10/36 + (26/36 x 10/36)) (to penetrate) = 26/36 x 620/1296 = 34.6% chance to penetrate

 

 

DK w/Greatsword @ Str 7 (Hammerhand)

 

against fast-moving rear AV 10

 

(26/36) (to hit) x (2/36 + (34/36 x 2/36)) (to glance) = 26/36 x 140/1296 = 7.8% chance to glance

(26/36) (to hit) x (33/36 + (3/36 x 33/36)) (to penetrate) = 26/36 x 1287/1296 = 71.7% chance to penetrate

 

against fast-moving rear AV 14

 

(26/36) (to hit) x (6/36 + (30/36 x 6/36)) (to glance) = 26/36 x 396/1296 = 22.1% chance to glance

(26/36) (to hit) x (15/36 + (21/36 x 15/36)) (to penetrate) = 26/36 x 855/1296 = 47.6% chance to penetrate

 

 

Summary and Conclusions

 

* 2 Doomfists outperform the Greatsword against all AVs.

 

* Either 1 or 2 Doomfists outperform a Str 6 Greatsword against AV 14.

 

* 1 Doomfist generates 8% more penetrating hits than even a Str 7 Greatsword against AV 14. However, the Str 7 Greatsword has about an 8% greater chance of doing damage of any kind to AV 14 (about 1/3 of all hits generated will be glancing hits).

 

* The Greatsword is only more effective than a single Doomfist against AV 10.

 

2 Doomfists

fast-moving AV 10: 83.3% chance to penetrate (no glances possible)

fast-moving AV 14: 6.9% chance to glance, 69.4% chance to penetrate

 

1 Doomfist

fast-moving AV 10: 66.7% chance to penetrate (no glances possible)

fast-moving AV 14: 5.5% chance to glance, 55.5% chance to penetrate

 

Str 6 Greatsword

fast-moving AV 10: 11.5% chance to glance, 70.2% chance to penetrate

fast-moving AV 14: 18.7% chance to glance, 34.6% chance to penetrate

 

Str 7 Greatsword

fast-moving AV 10: 7.8% chance to glance, 71.7% chance to penetrate

fast-moving AV 14: 22.1% chance to glance, 47.6% chance to penetrate

[Ashe Darke]

The other thing to remember is it can go use the sword against units where being s10 doesn't really matter and the re-rolls will win out. The thing won't just be going after vehicles.

[number6]

The other thing to remember is it can go use the sword against units where being s10 doesn't really matter and the re-rolls will win out. The thing won't just be going after vehicles.

Oh yes, obviously. :) I only wanted to set the record straight about AV-hunting with the Greatsword. While effective, sticking with Doomfists is more effective. Which is another reason why I personally favor 2 Doomfists over the Greatsword. I am plenty confident in my infantry-killing ability, but am always hungry for more ways to crack open tanks. Besides, the stock DK is plenty scary in assault as it is, too. Others may rank their priority needs for their DK differently than I do, of course. ;)

 

But while we're on the subject, let's pretend that a DK with 2 Doomfists and a DK with a Greatsword are both attacking an infantry unit they can hit on 3s and wound on 2s, which will be the case much of the time.

 

DK, 2 Doomfists

on the charge: 5 x 2/3 (to hit) x 5/6 (to wound) = 2.78 wounds

no charge: 4 x 2/3 (to hit) x 5/6 (to wound) = 2.22 wounds

 

DK, Greatsword

on the charge: (4 x 2/3 + (1/3 x (4 x 2/3))) (to hit) x (5/6 + (1/6 x 5/6)) (to wound) = 3.46 wounds

no charge: (3 x 2/3 + (1/3 x (3 x 2/3))) (to hit) x (5/6 + (1/6 x 5/6)) (to wound) = 2.59 wounds

 

There you have it. :P

[nurglez]

Well, math hammer is 1 thing, but I know I never, ever roll what the odds are, and rerolls are pure gold for me, so I always try and get them where I can :)