Nemesis Great Sword

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

I bow to your math hammer

[Zagman]

dont forget your extra D6 for a monstrous creature. How you would ever fail at penetrating a tanks armor at str6 plus average roll of 7 is beyond me. 6 +7= avg 13. Unless your up against a land raider, you wont have a problem anyway

It's not that unlikely that you'll roll a 4 (or 3) on two dice. The reroll is definitely useful.

 

If you're up against a land raider, you'd be better off attacking using your doomfists (at S10 + 2d6).

Unless the LR is moving...

 

read the math hammer for a 12 inch moving land raider.

 

The math hammer is now edited, even a LR moving its full distance still has a rediculous chance of taking damage from the greatsword. its too full of win to deny taking it

My response indicated that the GS was indeed superior for a moving LR. I use them whenever I have the points.

[Grimtooth]

I would say it is purely situational depending on how far the vehicle moved.

 

If the vehicle has not moved or has been immobilized, you are autohitting so rerolls to hits don't really matter.

 

With it moving a little bit, we now hit on 4+ and probably leaning towards the NGS way, but also depending on how high the armor is as well.

 

Moving a lot, NGS all the well, high armor or not.

[number6]

My response indicated that the GS was indeed superior for a moving LR. I use them whenever I have the points.

As I demonstrated, "superior" in this case depends on how you choose to define it for yourself. Meaning: in what outcome are you more interested?

 

If you want penetrating hits against AV 14, you're still better off using the single Doomfist over even a rerolling Str 7 Greatsword.

 

But if what you're after is better odds of getting any damage result (glancing hits included), then a Str 7 Greatsword is superior to a single Doomfist (though still inferior to 2 Doomfists).

 

And if for some reason you can't get Hammerhand off, you should choose the Doomfist when attacking AV 14 no matter what.

 

+++++

 

This whole exercise got me thinking about attacking other targets. Many targets are Toughness 6, there are several MCs that are Toughness 7, and a few that are Toughness 8. The 2 Doomfist DK wounds all of them at the same rate as any other infantry. (If hitting on 3s: 2.78 wounds on the charge, 2.22 if not charging.) But the DK with a Greatsword varies from its peak of 3.46 wounds when charging and 2.59 wounds when not charging (also assuming that it hits on 3s).

 

So, still assuming hits on 3s (to keep the wounding comparisons equal):

 

Greatsword needing 3s to wound

on the charge: (4 x 2/3 + (1/3 x (4 x 2/3))) (to hit) x (4/6 + (2/6 x 4/6)) (to wound) = 3.16 wounds

no charge: (3 x 2/3 + (1/3 x (3 x 2/3))) (to hit) x (4/6 + (2/6 x 4/6)) (to wound) = 2.22 wounds

 

Greatsword needing 4s to wound

on the charge: (4 x 2/3 + (1/3 x (4 x 2/3))) (to hit) x (3/6 + (3/6 x 3/6)) (to wound) = 2.67 wounds

no charge: (3 x 2/3 + (1/3 x (3 x 2/3))) (to hit) x (3/6 + (3/6 x 3/6)) (to wound) = 2.00 wounds

 

Greatsword needing 5s to wound

on the charge: (4 x 2/3 + (1/3 x (4 x 2/3))) (to hit) x (2/6 + (4/6 x 2/6)) (to wound) = 1.98 wounds

no charge: (3 x 2/3 + (1/3 x (3 x 2/3))) (to hit) x (2/6 + (4/6 x 2/6)) (to wound) = 1.48 wounds

 

 

This has me wondering when it might be better to use your Doomfist instead of your Greatsword....

 

1 Doomfist hitting on 3s

on the charge: 4 x 2/3 (to hit) x 5/6 (to wound) = 2.22 wounds

no charge: 3 x 2/3 (to hit) x 5/6 (to wound) = 1.67 wounds

 

 

Conclusion

 

If you have a Greatsword, use it unless you need 5s or 6s to wound, in which case you should use your Doomfist.

 

However, it's worth nothing that 2 Doomfists generate more wounds whenever a Greatsword-equipped DK needs a 4+ to cause wounds, rerolls and all!

 

This tells me that the Greatsword should be equipped for your DK when you intend to use it like a Tyranid Trygon. I.e., as a tough monster that wants to kill basic infantry in close combat. If you intend that it be capable of assaulting high-toughness targets or vehicles, however, you should keep the Doomfists.

 

+++++

 

Of course, many infantry and MC units will have WS 5 or better, requiring our DKs to hit on 4s. Let's see how this plays out.

 

2 Doomfists hitting on 4s

on the charge: 5 x 1/2 (to hit) x 5/6 (to wound) = 2.08 wounds

no charge: 4 x 1/2 (to hit) x 5/6 (to wound) = 1.67 wounds

 

Greasword hitting on 4s, wounding on 2s

on the charge: (4 x 1/2 + (1/2 x (4 x 1/2))) (to hit) x (5/6 + (1/6 x 5/6)) (to wound) = 2.92 wounds

no charge: (3 x 1/2 + (1/2 x (3 x 1/2))) (to hit) x (5/6 + (1/6 x 5/6)) (to wound) = 2.19 wounds

 

Greasword hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s

on the charge: (4 x 1/2 + (1/2 x (4 x 1/2))) (to hit) x (4/6 + (2/6 x 4/6)) (to wound) = 2.67 wounds

no charge: (3 x 1/2 + (1/2 x (3 x 1/2))) (to hit) x (4/6 + (2/6 x 4/6)) (to wound) = 2.00 wounds

 

Greasword hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s

on the charge: (4 x 1/2 + (1/2 x (4 x 1/2))) (to hit) x (3/6 + (3/6 x 3/6)) (to wound) = 2.25 wounds

no charge: (3 x 1/2 + (1/2 x (3 x 1/2))) (to hit) x (3/6 + (3/6 x 3/6)) (to wound) = 1.69 wounds

 

Greasword hitting on 4s, wounding on 5s

on the charge: (4 x 1/2 + (1/2 x (4 x 1/2))) (to hit) x (2/6 + (4/6 x 2/6)) (to wound) = 1.67 wounds

no charge: (3 x 1/2 + (1/2 x (3 x 1/2))) (to hit) x (2/6 + (4/6 x 2/6)) (to wound) = 1.25 wounds

 

1 Doomfist hitting on 4s

on the charge: 4 x 1/2 (to hit) x 5/6 (to wound) = 1.67 wounds

no charge: 3 x 1/2 (to hit) x 5/6 (to wound) = 1.25 wounds

 

 

Conclusion

 

The numbers look a little bit better for the Greatsword in this comparison. The Greatsword is just the slimmest of hairs more effective than -- might as well be equal to -- the 2 Doomfists when the DK requires 4s to wounds. Additionally, the Greatsword only falls behind its single Doomfist when the DK would require 6s to wound. Although the single Doomfist has exactly the same wound rate as the Greatsword when it needs 5s to wound.

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

Wow, this was a monstrous math hammer. So in conclusion, dual doomfists superior in almost all cases, except for low toughness mobs, where the great sword will do better. If you are looking for just a result on the damage table, the great sword fares better, sometimes, but for pens, doomfists all the way?

[number6]

Wow, this was a monstrous math hammer. So in conclusion, dual doomfists superior in almost all cases, except for low toughness mobs, where the great sword will do better.

Again, depends on how you define "almost all cases" and where you intend to get your DK involved in the fight. There are way more units in the game that are T4 or less than there are T6 or higher, for example. You won't hit any T6 models when fighting Space Marines, Tau, or Imperial Guard, for example! On the other hand, when you're fighting Tyranids, and possibly Eldar or even Dark Eldar, you might run across several.

 

Again, whether 2 Doomfists are "better" than a Greatsword depends entirely on what role you want it to fill in your army. There is no question that 2 Doomfists outperform the Greatsword when attacking armour. But there is also no question that the Greatsword outperforms 2 Doomfists when attacking the vast majority of infantry units in the game.

 

And when talking about MCs (or any other unit with a T5, T6 or better statline), the effectiveness of the Greatsword will depend greatly on whether you can get Hammerhand successfully cast. Wounding something on 3s instead of 4s (or 3s instead of 2s, for that matter) makes a huge difference. I wouldn't count on Hammerhand against Tyranids, Eldar, or Space Wolves for example! They all have heavy psychic defense and units with high Toughness. And in the case of Thunderwolves specifically, if you can't depend on psychic powers, you can't depend on activating your force weapon abilities either, let alone Hammerhand. As I stated earlier, for me in my gaming group, the ability to instant kill Thunderwolves with Doomfist attacks was a serious consideration for me. The fact that I can also instant kill Tyranid Warriors and Ork Nobs and GK Paladins without relying on force weapons is also something I appreciate.

 

Basically, the role I want for my DK is the threat of killing vehicles and high-Toughness and/or multi-wound targets. I feel like that is where my army list is weakest, and therefore the DK is being used to shore that up. That's why I'm not running the Greatsword.

 

But for you, in your army list, the Greatsword might be the right choice. Only you can know that!

[Ashe Darke]

It's better in theory. Mathhammer should only ever be a guide line. The fact is bad luck will happen and average rolls don't happen all the time.

[RedemptionNL]

...Lots of calculations...

 

Your calculations seems to be off for the Greatsword. And it's usually better to calculate the average number of results, and the chance to get at least one

 

Against an AV14 target that moved at Cruising Speed:

 

S10 Doomfists, 5 attacks:

Chance to hit: 16.67% (1 out of 6 possible results)

Average number of hits: 0.833

Chance to glance: 8.33% (3 out of 36 possible results)

Chance to penetrate: 83.33% (30 out of 36 results)

Average glancing hits: 0.069

Average penetrating hits: 0.694

Average number of: Shaken: 0.15, Stunned: 0.127, Weapon Destroyed: 0.127, Immobilized: 0.127, Wrecked: 0.116 Explodes: 0.116

Chance of at least 1: Shaken: 14.168%, Stunned: 12.099%, Weapon Destroyed: 12.099%, Immobilized: 12.099%, Wrecked: 11.05%, Explodes: 11.05%

 

S6 Greatsword, 4 attacks:

Chance to hit: 30.56% (1/6 + 5/6 * 1/6)

Average number of hits: 1.222

Chance to glance: 21.99% (5/36 + 21/36 * 5/36)

Chance to penetrate: 43.98% (10/36 + 21/36 * 10/36)

Average glancing hits: 0.269

Average penetrating hits: 0.538

Average number of: Shaken: 0.224, Stunned: 0.134, Weapon Destroyed: 0.134, Immobilized: 0.134, Wrecked: 0.09, Explodes: 0.09

Chance of at least 1: Shaken: 20.586%, Stunned: 12.777%, Weapon Destroyed: 12.777%, Immobilized: 12.777%, Wrecked: 8.663%, Explodes: 8.663%

 

S7 Greatsword, 4 attacks:

Chance to hit: 30.56% (1/6 + 5/6 * 1/6)

Average number of hits: 1.222

Chance to glance: 23.61% (6/36 + 15/36 * 6/36)

Chance to penetrate: 59.03% (15/36 + 15/36 * 15/36)

Average glancing hits: 0.289

Average penetrating hits: 0.721

Average number of: Shaken: 0.265, Stunned: 0.168, Weapon Destroyed: 0.168, Immobilized: 0.168, Wrecked: 0.12, Explodes: 0.12

Chance of at least 1: Shaken: 23.943%, Stunned: 15.801%, Weapon Destroyed: 15.801%, Immobilized: 15.801%, Wrecked : 11.493%, Explodes: 11.493%

 

As you can see, against fast moving AV14 targets, the Greatsword has a much bigger chance to get a glancing result, and if used with Hammerhand, even a slightly bigger chance to get a penetrating result.

The difference isn't that big because the higher chance to penetrate for S10+2D6 offsets its low chance to hit somewhat. But because the chance to hit is so low, you will more often do nothing at all, while a Greatsword will roll closer to its average.

 

Against AV10, the Greatsword's lead becomes even bigger because it gets a 90.28%/94.21% (S6/S7) chance to penetrate against the 100% for Doomfists, but the Greatsword wins out because it scores more hits.

 

Against stationary targets, the Doomfist wins, but against targets moving at Combat Speed or higher, especially vehicles with a low rear AV, the Greatsword definetely wins out.

 

This concludes today's math lesson. ;) Whether or not the Greatsword is worth its points is another matter (although it definetely wins in cool points!), but at least now you can base your decision of some decent calculations now. ;)

[Drachnon]

And let's therefore recalculate the odds for the Greatsword, with and without Hammerhand, shall we?

 

But first, to keep things simple, let's first calculate the odds of hitting with 4 attacks including reroll, as it's a little involved. One attack has a 1/6 chance of hitting, which means that 4 attacks have a 4/6 chance of hitting. Which means there's a 2/6 chance of a miss. Which means that 2 times out of 6 attempts, you'll have another 1/6 chance to hit. That calculates as follows:

I'm pretty sure that's where you calculation goes wrong, cause if you mean what I think you mean then if one attack hits you get no rerolls for the other attacks.

[Brother Valerius]

And let's therefore recalculate the odds for the Greatsword, with and without Hammerhand, shall we?

 

But first, to keep things simple, let's first calculate the odds of hitting with 4 attacks including reroll, as it's a little involved. One attack has a 1/6 chance of hitting, which means that 4 attacks have a 4/6 chance of hitting. Which means there's a 2/6 chance of a miss. Which means that 2 times out of 6 attempts, you'll have another 1/6 chance to hit. That calculates as follows:

I'm pretty sure that's where you calculation goes wrong, cause if you mean what I think you mean then if one attack hits you get no rerolls for the other attacks.

 

Even without complicating it with re-rolls, it's wrong (assuming number6 means the chance to hit at least once). The chance to hit at least once is 1-(the chance to miss every time). The chance to miss every time is 5/6*5/6*5/6*5/6, of course, which means that the chance to hit at least once works out to .51775 (not .66667)

[number6]

Awesome. :D