BATREP from Wayland Games sent via Email: DW vs GK

[Angelis Mortis]

Here is a BATREP that was sent in the Wayland Games email I got today. Just wanted to know what other GK players think about it.

 

 

Deathwing Walk All Over Grey Knights

 

We witnessed some awesome games of Warhammer 40K over the weekend. In particular was how one guy's Deathwing army simply walked over an optimised Grey Knights list. And when you think about it, an all-terminator army is pretty much immune to all of the Grey Knights new toys.

 

Dradknights get pumelled by Powerfists, Psy-Autocannon Dreadnoughts don't have any vehicles to shoot at, and all those 2+ saves protect the terminators from all those Storm Bolters and Psychic Powers. Plus, the Deathwing can put out plenty of Storm Bolter shots of their own.

 

Here's what he took to beat the Grey Knights:

 

Grand Master Belial with Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

Librarian in Terminator Armour

 

Both characters join

5 Deathwing Assault Terminators with Thunder Hamer & Storm Shield

Deathwing Banner upgrade & Apothecary upgrade

 

(X5) 5 Deathwing Terminators

Cyclone Missile Launcher upgrade & Chainfist upgrade

 

The Deathwing army advances in a huge block with the (feel no pain) Assault Terminators out in front. Anything nasty that needs battering gets attacked by them while the other squads provide supporting firepower as the phalanx advances. If the Assault Terminators get stuck, then the other squads pile into the combat and beat things to death with their powerfists.

 

1) I would like to see this "optimized" GK list.

2) Personally I think its a total fluke game thats being sensationalized to push Terminator models. The only way I can see this walking over an average GK list is a) The GK player doesn't know his rules, :woot: the GK player doesn't know his list, or c) total fluke of the dice Gods.

 

I'll go more in depth in points as the thread develops. For now, I would like to hear comments on what other GK players are thinking about this claim.

[skarn]

Interesting. I would have thought an army of power weapon & psycannon wielding marines would match up really well against DW. Especially footslogging DW.

[Angelis Mortis]

Interesting. I would have thought an army of power weapon & psycannon wielding marines would match up really well against DW. Especially footslogging DW.

 

Exactly my point. Especially Halberd armed ones. I think this report is being embellished quite a bit.

[Brovius]

If i was an optimised list, the GK player wouldn't have fielded a Psyrifleman Dread. Plain and simple.

Also, the optimised GK list would have had NFS on almost every GKT, giving them a 4++ while still hitting at higher I.

 

I call BS on this batrep. Wayland clearly has a fanboy working for them, or has a lot of SM Termie kits that need moving.

[KnowThyEnemy]

why wouldnt an optimized list include psyrifle dreads? just curious as to what you plan on using for long range AT. and im going to have to agree. even before the update to DA that bumped the DW back into competive arenas, i had no issue with my old GK. so he has 21 terminators with stormbolters. my opimized list has 25...plus 16 psycannons :D (im assuming 2k but im probably wrong).

 

i just dont see that list walking over a solid GK list unless things went horribly horribly wrong. i mean think about it, if i just sat back with 4 decked out purifier squads as they slogged across the board, id chew that hammernator squad to pieces. thats not even factoring the vindicare taking out that apothecary/belial and dreads focus firing on squads one at a time. i know i know, game cant be played in a vacuum, but c'mon, footsloggin terms fall to weight of fire very easily

[Adir]

I call BS on this batrep. Wayland clearly has a fanboy working for them, or has a lot of SM Termie kits that need moving.

Don't forget the need to push the Dark Angels codex. I am sure they have boxes of these just gathering dust.

 

This is pretty clearly an effort to push product rather than provide legitimate content. I don't purchase from Wayland, but someone who does might want to point out how blatant this was. Nothing to get upset about, just business as usual in the retail space.

[nurglez]

its just like the white dwarf battle reports, which ever codex is released just happens to win the game, even if against the odds.

 

as we all know, battles depend on the terrain, the experience of the players and the set up of the army regarding the mission objectives.

[number6]

Impossible to make any judgement without, at a minimum, seeing the "optimised" GK list. But I already get the impression that the GK player depended on a core of Terminators as assault units. As I've said elsewhere, the GK army is not an assault army. Folks trying to run the GK army as if it was an assault-oriented force are going to be greatly disappointed. Over and over again.

 

In the end, however, this is nothing to get upset about. For all we know, the DW gamer was simply a stronger tactician than the GK player. Tactics do make a helluva lot of difference! :D

[Eorek]

I play both Deathwing and grey knights... and I can tell you: no way... only way for that to happen is if the rolls where on the deathwing players side ... cause the grey kngiths shoot more, they have extremely good melée weapons for handeling terminators...

 

sure you might not wanna jump with your dreadknight straight into them... but I think most people have yet to understand that the dreadknight is best used as a very shooty unit with good melée abilities and not a melée unit with good shooting abilities.

 

Even a draigo paladin list would have a good chance of beating DW... sure 2 wounds won't really matter... but they have alot of stuff that gives them a edge over the DW termies...Draigo for example...

[Mykra]

If i was an optimised list, the GK player wouldn't have fielded a Psyrifleman Dread. Plain and simple.

Also, the optimised GK list would have had NFS on almost every GKT, giving them a 4++ while still hitting at higher I.

 

 

The twin-autocannon (I hate that stupid Psifle name. I blame Kirby for it.) dreadnought is a basically given for GK lists as you simply can't beat that price, range, and utility. Just about every competitive list I've seen so far has had two of them at least. The optimized Terminator/Paladin unit's I've seen haven't had a single force sword among them - it's been a four halberd to one hammer mix.

[Joasht]

I could imagine it happening to be honest, assuming the DW player was a really good one.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Impossible to make any judgement without, at a minimum, seeing the "optimised" GK list. But I already get the impression that the GK player depended on a core of Terminators as assault units. As I've said elsewhere, the GK army is not an assault army. Folks trying to run the GK army as if it was an assault-oriented force are going to be greatly disappointed. Over and over again.

 

In the end, however, this is nothing to get upset about. For all we know, the DW gamer was simply a stronger tactician than the GK player. Tactics do make a helluva lot of difference! :geek:

 

I half agree with you

 

GK Terminators are extremely useful, I tend to just spam them and I do extremely well. In all honesty I don't see how a TDA-wing (SW or DA) can "roll over" a GKT list. Against PA GK's then maybe, but a well put together GKT list will at least hold it's own unless the other guy is massively spamming TH/SS units.

 

Against the PF Termies the halberd GKT will just rip them apart then shout "Next!"

[WarriorFish]

This just in: trader tries to sell stock. People are shocked. More on this story madness later.

[Oiad]

Impossible to make any judgement without, at a minimum, seeing the "optimised" GK list. But I already get the impression that the GK player depended on a core of Terminators as assault units. As I've said elsewhere, the GK army is not an assault army. Folks trying to run the GK army as if it was an assault-oriented force are going to be greatly disappointed. Over and over again.

True per se, but generally I'd say SMs, particularly DAs are meant to be well-rounded too. It's not an out-and-out assault list. Best thing here was that at 215pts per DW squad we should be putting more bodies on the board for once. So something is fishy...

 

@Angel - Get him to post the GK list to you so we can rip it apart and see how it went wrong. It's not improbable that DW won - far from it, but the context of this email makes us doubtful on several other reasons. So far I'm personally opting for 'disfranchised DW whiner trying too hard to prove that GKs ain't the no.1 Terminator specialists'. I've seen a lot of insecure braggart claims from SM players wanting to 'out-elite' GKs recently and this sounds no different.

 

Against the PF Termies the halberd GKT will just rip them apart then shout "Next!"

...and I agreed with you up to here. There's no point in going I6 against an I1 army. Our GKTs are best off with NFSs or NFFs against them.

[Angelis Mortis]

Seems to be theres a consensus that this is at a minimum, a highly embellished BATREP (if it is really a BATREP at all). I don't even see a GK PA list getting rolled over as even GK PA all have higher initiative power weapons not to mention serious Psycannon spam. I think this BATREP simply stinks to high Heaven to even give it a raised eyebrow to be honest. I simply wanted to make sure I wasn't simply in denial and that I was indeed right in my skepticism.

[Gentlemanloser]

How did the DW catch up with the 12" moving Rhinos? Sure, they had 10 (12?) Krak Missiles per turn to pop the rhinos, but by that time, there's enough distance to cross that the mass of rending Psycannon shots would have made a mockery of the non SS DW Termies...

[Joasht]

How did the DW catch up with the 12" moving Rhinos? Sure, they had 10 (12?) Krak Missiles per turn to pop the rhinos, but by that time, there's enough distance to cross that the mass of rending Psycannon shots would have made a mockery of the non SS DW Termies...

I think people overestimate Psycannons.

 

Lets say you had ten Psycannons, standing still, firing at Terminators that are wide out in the open. This is a very, very ideal situation - it isn't easy to get 40 Psycannon shots, and Terminators won't generally stand completely exposed to ALL FOURTY shots.

 

So,

40 x 2/3 (to hit) = 80/3

80/3 x 5/6 (to wound) = 200/9

 

Number of rending = 80/3 x 1/6 = 40/9

 

So you have 160/9 non-rending shots and 40/9 rending shots.

 

Non rending kills: 160/9 x 1/6 = 160/54; roughly three.

Rending kills: 40/9 x 2/3 = 80/27; roughly three.

 

Six kills for all that firepower. Even if you factor in all the other variables the odds are alright but certainly not a "mockery". Stormbolters, with that awesome 1/9 chance to kill a Terminator per Stormbolter, the fact you'd be moving and won't be able to bring to bear 40 Psycannon shots, the Terminators having some form of cover, and even if I made some mistake in my calculation above (2 am over here, don't blame me :X) it wouldn't be too easy for you to take out Terminators with Psycannons alone.

 

My only curiousity is how he managed to catch up to the army though.

[Mordrak]

Ok I know the writer of the Wayland Newsletter and I also have seen the list, I would not call it optimised by any stretch of the imagination...

 

Librarian: 170pts

Warp Rift, Sanctuary, Shrouding & Might of Titan.

 

Xenos Inquisitor: 61pts

2 Servo Skulls, Psychostroke Grenades & Rad Grenades.

 

9 Purifiers: 306pts

2 Psycannons, 2 Hammers, 5 Halberds. Razorback with Twin-linked Heavy Bolter & Psybolts.

 

3 Henchmen: 82pts

Chimera with Extra Armour.

 

Vindicare: 145pts

 

10 Grey Knights: 290pts

2 Psycannons, Psybolts & Hammer. Rhino.

 

10 Grey Knights: 291pts

2 Psycannons, Psybolts & Hammer. Rhino with Searchlights.

 

Dreadnought: 135pts

2 Twin-linked Autocannons. Psybolts.

 

Dreadnought: 135pts

2 Twin-linked Autocannons. Psybolts.

 

Dreadnought: 135pts

2 Twin-linked Autocannons. Psybolts.

 

Grand Total: 1750pts

[KnowThyEnemy]

i mean not bad, but cmon, optimized? hes got barely 30 boots on the floor, only 1 of which is in TDA. simple rebudle:

Crowe

Vindicare

40 Purifiers, 16 psycannons, 4 rhinos, 4 hammers, halberds

2 psyrifle dreads

 

yea, not super optimized either, but you at least have the bodies and personnel to take on most threats. 3 dreads at this point range is debatably 1 too many (this from the guy whos ran 5 at 2k). its just tough to justify the potential loss in bodies. if you liked them so much though:

 

crowe

vindicare

30 Purifiers, 12 psycannons, 2 rhinos

3 psyrifle dreads

 

i just dont understand the "optimized list" claim. there are so many synergy combos in this book (i know, i gave just crowe) i just dont understand why you take those units which dont really benefit one another.

[Gentlemanloser]

Now, I *hope* That Vindicare was spenidng every shot shield breaking the Assault Termies...

[number6]

So far I'm personally opting for 'disfranchised DW whiner trying too hard to prove that GKs ain't the no.1 Terminator specialists'. I've seen a lot of insecure braggart claims from SM players wanting to 'out-elite' GKs recently and this sounds no different.

And we should care about any such claims ... why, exactly? :D

 

And for what it's worth, neither the batrep list nor the proposed Crowe lists look that good to my eyes, let alone "optimized". Nowhere near enough redundancy and oomph. Just my opinion, of course ... which is worth about as much as claiming that GKs either are or are not 100% the best elite army. :D

[Brother Captain Kezef]

...and I agreed with you up to here. There's no point in going I6 against an I1 army. Our GKTs are best off with NFSs or NFFs against them.

 

I tend to have Halberds as standard equipment, but you are right either hitty stick works.

[Something Wycked]

That GK list really looks like someone cobbled together a couple ideas of their own mixed with netlist ideas. There's no synergy there. I can't tell if the list had a battle plan from the beginning other than "put some models on the table and shoot at the enemy".

[Oiad]

And we should care about any such claims ... why, exactly? :lol:

 

And for what it's worth, neither the batrep list nor the proposed Crowe lists look that good to my eyes, let alone "optimized". Nowhere near enough redundancy and oomph. Just my opinion, of course ... which is worth about as much as claiming that GKs either are or are not 100% the best elite army. :lol:

Oh I agree completely that it's amusing angle but I can't really see any better reason for this exercise other than some silly game of one-upmanship. Whatever the reason it has at least got us talking, eh?

 

Still can't help thinking how I'd go about tackling this list. Have a few ideas, all initially different to the ones above. Mainly using Henchmen and/or GKTs. Placed with facing such a list how would you go about it?

[Brovius]

If i was an optimised list, the GK player wouldn't have fielded a Psyrifleman Dread. Plain and simple.

Also, the optimised GK list would have had NFS on almost every GKT, giving them a 4++ while still hitting at higher I.

 

 

The twin-autocannon (I hate that stupid Psifle name. I blame Kirby for it.) dreadnought is a basically given for GK lists as you simply can't beat that price, range, and utility. Just about every competitive list I've seen so far has had two of them at least. The optimized Terminator/Paladin unit's I've seen haven't had a single force sword among them - it's been a four halberd to one hammer mix.

 

What I meant to say is that Psyfleman Dreads are useless against Deathwing. They are either Termie-heavy, which the Dread is no good against, or they will have units in LRs, which the Psyfleman has next to no chance to destroy (save focus-firing all 3 for 2 or more turns, then maybe you'll imobilize it or take off a weapon).

 

It would only be any good against Deathwing Dreadnoughts, which personally, I have never seen a DA player field.

 

The points would have been better spend on GKTs, which would tear standard Termies to shreds, but for the same points cost.