BATREP from Wayland Games sent via Email: DW vs GK

[BrotherWasted]

List truly Optimised to fight Deathwing would be packing Quicksilver, Lascannon Dreads (for that lovely AP2), and be so much more Assault-oriented.

 

Interceptors, Brotherhood Banners with 10-Man Termies, Assault Purifiers, Deathcult Assassins, those kinds of things, with Henchmen Squads and Strike Squads providing the shooting. No Dreadknights, they cannot tarpit Hammernators. Getting Initiative over Deathwing is the best way to kill them - the only thing that is actually scary in that list is the Hammernator Squad and Belial. Flood Belial with wounds and activate your Force Weapons - even Strike Squads can do this, Belial is then dead and gone.

 

Deathwing cannot beat a properly tailored Grey Knight list, generally speaking. I'm not really sure it would work the other way around aside from bad generalship.

[TyrionTheImp]

What's with all the Deathwing bashing? Oh right, GK forum....

 

I'm sorry, but a full DW army with Storm Shields/Thunder Hammers and CML's on every squad (plus Belial and command squad) is wicked hard to kill, even for GK's. It doesn't state what each squad comes with other than a CML and Chainfist, so not very good insight IMHO.

 

Deathwing are quite competitive and it's no stretch of the imagination of a properly made list (basically TH/SS and CML spam, maybe cut out a squad or 2 for Ravenwing meltas) could roll through a GK optimized list. However, as it appears neither list was particularly "optimized" so I'd say it's a load of BS either way.

 

Don't count DW out of the fight though, not now, not ever. ;)

[Prathios]

I don't see it being that scary actually. They are very hard to kill but it's very hard for them to take down a force with as much mobile firepower as the GK. Falling back every turn around the map while spamming S5 storm bolters wins out eventually. You will get a ton of wounds on the models. Very few actual casualties but they don't have that many bodies either. With them being so CC oriented you just focus the shooty DW first then keep falling back. Best they can do inside 24 inches is advance by running which is unreliable. Plus, against this team a Vindicare is a great choice, couple rounds of shooting and Belial is dead.

[Something Wycked]

Mordrak - 200

- 5x Ghost Knights, 5x Falchions - 225

 

10 SS, Hammer, Psybolts - 250

10 SS, Hammer, Psybolts - 250

 

10 Interceptors, Hammer, Psycannon x2, Psybolts - 310

10 Interceptors, Hammer, Psycannon x2, Psybolts - 310

 

DK, PT - 205

 

-1750

 

Note that this list isn't optimized against the DW list- the hammers are useless here (except for not needing to activate force weapons to ID the characters, but that's not really a use.) This is a slightly modified version of my list (cutting out 250 points) that you can find here.

 

Assuming first turn, drop Mordrak and his unit in somewhat near a unit of shooty Deathwing, threatening a turn 2 assault. Shunt the Interceptors and DK nearby to support and pour fire on the HQ/Assault squad, being sure to keep them out of range of assault from the HQ/Assault squad. Run 1 or 1.5 units of Strikes up the field to be (hopefully) in range of support fire on turn 2.

 

Force the HQ/Assault squad to choose if its going to chase a unit of Interceptors or if its going to chase the Mordrak unit. In either case, kite the HQ/Assault unit and shoot it to pieces. (Yes, it has Feel No Pain, but it is also only a unit of 5+2 models.) Then Mordrak and his unit, if still living, can be used as an assault hammer against the squads with no shield that are still going on I1. Due to superior mobility, you can pile on multiple units in assault against one of his units.

 

Assuming second turn or the DW coming in via Deep Strike, the same strategy applies but you can save your shunts, not needing it to cross the board first turn; they should be in range with just a 12" move.

 

Pretty sure even that DW list will have trouble with this ;)

 

EDIT: Or, as Prathios said, shoot down their shooty squads while kiting the HQ/Assault squad- which will probably work better since they don't have an Apothecary to help them soak failed armor saves. When the positioning is right, pounce on the HQ with both Interceptors and the DK to nullify the Apothecary advantage.

[TyrionTheImp]

The point of the TH/SS isn't for CC, it's for the fact my entire army is 2+/3++ with 2 48" S8 shots per squad. I don't NEED to be in close combat with you, I will out last you and sit on objectives. Oh yeah, I'm Fearless too so every model has to be killed. Nobody would even think about DWA (Deathwing Assault) with an all TH/SS army, start everything on the board and just march forward, focus firing as needed. What was that about "outside of 24" all they can do is run?" say that to my CML's. Granted, Fortitude on vehicles makes it A LOT more annoying that I can't stunlock your vehicles, but that's true for any army against GK's.

 

Smart DW players are going to use and abuse CMLs + TH/SS, none of that mix-match crap, I certainly don't miss a few storm bolter shots when my whole army is a total ;) to kill with shooting or CC. Those Force Weaps mean little when I get a 3++, and since I'm already I1, halberds help how? Falchions are your best bet but then we're getting into list tailoring. ;)

 

Also, Belial is 130 points, Vindicare him to death for all I care, he's just there as extra wounds and to give me troops + command squad. You still have a bunch of 2+/3++ terminators with CML's pounding you every turn.

[Brother Dylan]

Aye that was the problem I ran into in game against deathwing, just sat on objectives being a pain to kill. My Dreadknights were useless and I just used them to contest at the last turn with a shunt to draw the game.

[Prathios]

The point of the TH/SS isn't for CC, it's for the fact my entire army is 2+/3++ with 2 48" S8 shots per squad. I don't NEED to be in close combat with you, I will out last you and sit on objectives. Oh yeah, I'm Fearless too so every model has to be killed. Nobody would even think about DWA (Deathwing Assault) with an all TH/SS army, start everything on the board and just march forward, focus firing as needed. What was that about "outside of 24" all they can do is run?" say that to my CML's. Granted, Fortitude on vehicles makes it A LOT more annoying that I can't stunlock your vehicles, but that's true for any army against GK's.

 

Smart DW players are going to use and abuse CMLs + TH/SS, none of that mix-match crap, I certainly don't miss a few storm bolter shots when my whole army is a total ;) to kill with shooting or CC. Those Force Weaps mean little when I get a 3++, and since I'm already I1, halberds help how? Falchions are your best bet but then we're getting into list tailoring. ;)

 

Also, Belial is 130 points, Vindicare him to death for all I care, he's just there as extra wounds and to give me troops + command squad. You still have a bunch of 2+/3++ terminators with CML's pounding you every turn.

 

Actually after looking at this a second time, the vast portion of the army doesn't get a 3++. Only a few of them have that option, and for those that do just keep away from them. Target saturation will kill them in a few turns, especially from the rending shots. They only have 1 wound. The big portion gets a 5+, and that is easy cheesy to kill with force weapons. Run in with a good mix of falchions, halberds, or swords, it matters not. The chainfist squads are no threat in CC, they will go last and likely have all died in the first round of combat anyway. I really can't see this list being at all difficult. But then again, it's the dark angels. They lost half their legion to chaos, so you can't expect them to put up much of a fight against true Imperials ;)

[TyrionTheImp]

Actually after looking at this a second time, the vast portion of the army doesn't get a 3++. Only a few of them have that option, and for those that do just keep away from them. Target saturation will kill them in a few turns, especially from the rending shots. They only have 1 wound. The big portion gets a 5+, and that is easy cheesy to kill with force weapons. Run in with a good mix of falchions, halberds, or swords, it matters not. The chainfist squads are no threat in CC, they will go last and likely have all died in the first round of combat anyway. I really can't see this list being at all difficult. But then again, it's the dark angels. They lost half their legion to chaos, so you can't expect them to put up much of a fight against true Imperials ;)

 

Negative. Re-check your info. Every single model in a Deathwing army can get 2+/3++, period. Sorry buddy. ;)

[BrotherWasted]

They can, but that list does not. All 3++ means its that you basically have a 3++ armor save. I have more attacks than you, all I need to do is saturate your deathwing squad and get 5 wounds through.

 

That Deathwing list has like, only 30 or so wounds to cause on the table in order for it to be tabled. Between my combined shooting, higher initiative and higher volume of shots/attacks, I am quite certain I can cause that much with an optimised list.

[Prathios]

Actually after looking at this a second time, the vast portion of the army doesn't get a 3++. Only a few of them have that option, and for those that do just keep away from them. Target saturation will kill them in a few turns, especially from the rending shots. They only have 1 wound. The big portion gets a 5+, and that is easy cheesy to kill with force weapons. Run in with a good mix of falchions, halberds, or swords, it matters not. The chainfist squads are no threat in CC, they will go last and likely have all died in the first round of combat anyway. I really can't see this list being at all difficult. But then again, it's the dark angels. They lost half their legion to chaos, so you can't expect them to put up much of a fight against true Imperials B)

 

Negative. Re-check your info. Every single model in a Deathwing army can get 2+/3++, period. Sorry buddy. :D

 

Never said the team couldn't but as the above poster pointed out, I don't see it on the list in question. So... negative back at you. Again, 30 wounds is not a problem to table for a decent all comers GK list.

[TyrionTheImp]

I've NEVER had my DW tabled and I play against shooty Eldar quite often which are VERY similar to GK in their shooting capabilities. Anyone who underestimates Deathwing haven't played them yet, or haven't played a good player with them.

 

That's not to say I don't lose but I've had many opponents come up to me after a game and say "Wow, that was A LOT harder than I thought it would be." :D

 

And no it means I have a 2+ armor save and a 3++ invulnerable save to your Power Weapons and AP2 or better, which is...well significantly better than most things get.

 

I said it previously and I'll say it again: Do not underestimate Deathwing, otherwise it'll come back and bite you.

[Souba]

Actually after looking at this a second time, the vast portion of the army doesn't get a 3++. Only a few of them have that option, and for those that do just keep away from them. Target saturation will kill them in a few turns, especially from the rending shots. They only have 1 wound. The big portion gets a 5+, and that is easy cheesy to kill with force weapons. Run in with a good mix of falchions, halberds, or swords, it matters not. The chainfist squads are no threat in CC, they will go last and likely have all died in the first round of combat anyway. I really can't see this list being at all difficult. But then again, it's the dark angels. They lost half their legion to chaos, so you can't expect them to put up much of a fight against true Imperials :D

 

 

sure rending will shoot through that 5++ quiet easily however giving your units 4+cover is even more so. making those rending shots even less frigthfull. sure he may lose a model.. and? as they are fearles you got 3 others on the way to get killed until you can knock up that dude with the CML. and thats it to kill just one squad of 5 man. not even counting those other 5. a DW army has it quiet easy to bunker up right now. put 2-3 suqads with TH/ss and let the others behind them and bang 4+ cover save. you can snipe all you want. you invest far more in shooting at them for the points you kill.

 

of course you can run in and assault but you have to get through that 3++ guys first. you may like to attack from the sides but your enemy is not one static standing target. he can adjust his 3++ guys on every side that is more of a threat for him.

 

sure we got more ranged shots than them and they do lack the AP with the CML and stormbolters to get through termie armor. but it wont be such a easy battle as you make it sound. as we also lack much low ap shots. and for every ap shot we got, they got 3++/cover saves.

 

 

im a GK player myself and one friend of mine plays DA. i know what his guys can do and i would never underestimate them. especially now after that errata/faq.

[Joasht]

List truly Optimised to fight Deathwing would be packing Quicksilver, Lascannon Dreads (for that lovely AP2), and be so much more Assault-oriented.

I believe they meant an optimized general list, the kind that you'd take to a tourney - not one specifically designed to murder Terminators.

[BrotherWasted]

There's a difference? :lol:

 

I agree, a more all-comers oriented list would not be purely based on wiping out Terminators, but it would still have to plan for Deathwing if that is what the meta encompasses. That means being able to flood wounds.

 

I may be overstating when I say an optimised list should table a Deathwing army, true. But, really, there is no reason Deathwing should table a decent GK list, either. Shooting will not do too much, agreed, but GKs are much better in assault. Get in there with Halberds and Falchions, flood them with 3++ saves (which will be extremely expensive for them) and you will get your 5 wounds needed to take out a squad.

[Brother Dylan]

Easier said than done I'm afraid, most deathwing players I've seen keep the squad close together making assaulting them a losing proposition for most grey knight armies. Assaulting one to the point of flooding them with wounds opens you to a counter charge from that squads friends.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think I'd rather face 5/6 DW TH/SS squads with CML than 4/5 squads with Storm Bolters and CMLs. :)

[Mordrak]

The point is the optimisation of this list was grossly exaggerated and I don't think it is fair of the newsletter making out the list was an optimised GK one.

Math-hammer is fine on paper but at the end of the day imo when you play the game its your and your opponent's generalship that can tip the balance of a game.

After all a tournament winning army can lose if your tactica is poor just as a poor army can fight out a draw (possibly a win) with superior tactics.

[Brovius]

Easier said than done I'm afraid, most deathwing players I've seen keep the squad close together making assaulting them a losing proposition for most grey knight armies. Assaulting one to the point of flooding them with wounds opens you to a counter charge from that squads friends.

 

What's stopping the GK player from doing the same?

Even without the TH/SS Deathwing, we still outnumber them, and that's with GKTs, which are far better. We strike at I4 while still having a 4++ in combat. We get just as many attacks (save for the Justicar), and it's not that expensive for a few GKTs to have falchions. It's ridiculously easy to flood the DW with wounds with relatively sturdy units in CC, and if you do a combined assault against everything (or even against most squads), they will crumble.

 

DW are not to be underestimated, but neither are GKTs. Also, a BC or Techmarine with Rad 'nades will help heaps.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Let's not forget that deathwing can have fnp terminators for 25 points ^^. If I remember that correctly. It sure isn't 75.

 

Deathwing can also take all kinds of D.A junk. One of my friends run them with 3 vindicators on occasion. Togheter with like 5 terminator squads, this truly eff's up target-priority.

[number6]

Placed with facing such a list how would you go about it?

Well, I don't believe in list-tailoring. My goal with any of my 40K armies is to build all-comer's lists and let them play anything and everything. If the DW player intended to build a list specifically designed to kill GKs ... fine. Let him. Just makes the challenge all the greater. ;)

 

There are so many ways to build all-comer's lists with the GK codex that there isn't a prescriptive way to go about it. :D

[Prathios]

There are so many ways to build all-comer's lists with the GK codex that there isn't a prescriptive way to go about it. :)

 

So refreshing to hear these words. Proof that there are players who think there are more than 2 units in the codex worthy of fielding.

 

I did think it would be funny to see a Draigowing and a DW collide in a terminator doom orgy!

[antique_nova]

For all their fancy what nots, a DW army is going to have a very difficult time when a unit of them is being attacked my an entire unit of force wielding zealots. Not even the ++3 is going to save them. The problem with that list is once that assault terminator unit is gone, the other termis are almost helpless against a GK force.

 

If the DW decide to hide their terminator assault unit behind their normal terminators, then we force them out and then hit that terminator assault unit with everything we have. Not that hard.

 

The DW army have a lot of bling, but not the numbers and they lack speed (Once they have deepstriked of course)

 

I would like them to face my 'optimised' list. :P. Also, i am assuming that this was a 1750 point game.

[antique_nova]

For all their fancy what nots, a DW army is going to have a very difficult time when a unit of them is being attacked my an entire unit of force wielding zealots. Not even the ++3 is going to save them. The problem with that list is once that assault terminator unit is gone, the other termis are almost helpless against a GK force.

 

If the DW decide to hide their terminator assault unit behind their normal terminators, then we force them out and then hit that terminator assault unit with everything we have. Not that hard.

 

The DW army have a lot of bling, but not the numbers and they lack speed (Once they have deepstriked of course)

 

I would like them to face my 'optimised' list. :P. Also, i am assuming that this was a 1750 point game.

 

There are so many ways to build all-comer's lists with the GK codex that there isn't a prescriptive way to go about it. :P

 

So refreshing to hear these words. Proof that there are players who think there are more than 2 units in the codex worthy of fielding.

 

I did think it would be funny to see a Draigowing and a DW collide in a terminator doom orgy!

There shall be no ORGIES. You have been tainted! PURGE THE UNCLEAN, THE FILTHY MINDED WARP SPAWN! :P

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Prathios]

For all their fancy what nots, a DW army is going to have a very difficult time when a unit of them is being attacked my an entire unit of force wielding zealots. Not even the ++3 is going to save them. The problem with that list is once that assault terminator unit is gone, the other termis are almost helpless against a GK force.

 

If the DW decide to hide their terminator assault unit behind their normal terminators, then we force them out and then hit that terminator assault unit with everything we have. Not that hard.

 

The DW army have a lot of bling, but not the numbers and they lack speed (Once they have deepstriked of course)

 

I would like them to face my 'optimised' list. :P. Also, i am assuming that this was a 1750 point game.

 

There are so many ways to build all-comer's lists with the GK codex that there isn't a prescriptive way to go about it. :tu:

 

So refreshing to hear these words. Proof that there are players who think there are more than 2 units in the codex worthy of fielding.

 

I did think it would be funny to see a Draigowing and a DW collide in a terminator doom orgy!

There shall be no ORGIES. You have been tainted! PURGE THE UNCLEAN, THE FILTHY MINDED WARP SPAWN! ;)

 

thanks

antique_nova

 

Well I would assume that because we are not referring to Emperors Children that you would have just understood orgy was meant in the usage as a metaphor for close combat butchery. Perhaps you're allowing your mind to wander Nova... Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

[antique_nova]

For all their fancy what nots, a DW army is going to have a very difficult time when a unit of them is being attacked my an entire unit of force wielding zealots. Not even the ++3 is going to save them. The problem with that list is once that assault terminator unit is gone, the other termis are almost helpless against a GK force.

 

If the DW decide to hide their terminator assault unit behind their normal terminators, then we force them out and then hit that terminator assault unit with everything we have. Not that hard.

 

The DW army have a lot of bling, but not the numbers and they lack speed (Once they have deepstriked of course)

 

I would like them to face my 'optimised' list. :P. Also, i am assuming that this was a 1750 point game.

 

There are so many ways to build all-comer's lists with the GK codex that there isn't a prescriptive way to go about it. :)

 

So refreshing to hear these words. Proof that there are players who think there are more than 2 units in the codex worthy of fielding.

 

I did think it would be funny to see a Draigowing and a DW collide in a terminator doom orgy!

There shall be no ORGIES. You have been tainted! PURGE THE UNCLEAN, THE FILTHY MINDED WARP SPAWN! :lol:

 

thanks

antique_nova

 

Well I would assume that because we are not referring to Emperors Children that you would have just understood orgy was meant in the usage as a metaphor for close combat butchery. Perhaps you're allowing your mind to wander Nova... Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

 

Difficult, to be sure... but it shall be so

:lol: