BATREP from Wayland Games sent via Email: DW vs GK

[worloch]

Without seeing an actual Battle Report, it is hard to truly understand what went down.

 

Do we even know what mission was being played?

 

 

I have to admit though, it does look like the DW list had the edge in the match up. Each SS could probably get about 2 wounds or so on a DW squad (not the TH/SS squad), so if you doubled them on the same squad and threw in some extra firepower, you could wipe a DW squad through sheer number of shots.

 

However, 10 Krak Missiles per turn is going to put a big dent in the GK list each turn. Given that the Dreads aren't all that scary to the DW Terminators, they could concentrate on wiping out all the PA GK's.

 

 

A Warp Rift from the Librarian on the TH/SS squad could have been somewhat effective.

 

 

In any case, I don't doubt that the game could have gone either way and the outcome depended on how each list was played, the actual mission and setup, and the dice rolls.

[greatcrusade08]

i may be overstepping the mark, but i see alot of egos in this thread..

why assume that wayland are feeding you lies? becuase you dont believe a deathwing army is capable of beating a GK army..

 

i beat a grey knights army with space marine scouts last week... are you gunna call me a liar too?

 

IMO there are three man aspects to winning a game, list, tactics and luck..

GK may (and i use that term lightly as we dont know the GK list) have the edge in list, but if the DW players has the upper hand in the other two then they will win..

 

assuming GKs will win a game is bad enough, but to then shout hogwash becuase a report is posted showing the opposite is maddening, and really not the behaviour of gentlemen..

the way it came across is that wayland thought it memorable, in part becuase it was unlikely, yet you still claim they are lying

think about the message it sends..

a: wayland are be liars (these guys have a great rep.. dont ruin that for them)

b: GK can never be beaten by DA/deathwing

not to mention your crapping on the hard work of the DW player... lets hope hes not a member of this board, god knows how youd treat him...

 

if you want to argue 'paper' potentials of armies thats fine, but dont pretend that GK couldnt lose to 'lesser' armies.. its a mistake that could lose you friends and games

[Gentlemanloser]

Er, GC08, I tihnk what people don't like is this;

 

Deathwing Walk All Over Grey Knights

 

We witnessed some awesome games of Warhammer 40K over the weekend. In particular was how one guy's Deathwing army simply walked over an optimised Grey Knights list. And when you think about it, an all-terminator army is pretty much immune to all of the Grey Knights new toys.

 

I think your post should really apply to Wayland Games. :P

 

(It's got nothing to do with GKs losing, or being able to beat DW)

[Mordrak]

Personally I'm not rubbishing any army...check my previous post with regards to list building and generalship, my problem is with the writer of said newsletter claiming the list was 'optimised'.

This list is not tournament optimised or optimised to kill DW either, nor is it as optimal as you can get whilst keeping with fluff.

 

also @ GC I have given you the list in previous post so please read the whole topic

[Prathios]

Gotta go with what gentleman already said GC08. The reason people are in a huff was how the BR was posted. The language of being immune to new toys and walking all over is fightin words man. So saying its not gentlemanly to fire back ignores that the glove was already loosed and slapped. I would never say an army "can't" lose to another, that's silly but saying that a list favors another is legitimate. Plus, it's fun to bait Dark Angels players because they know deep down that the chapter is a bunch of emo kids :P j/k j/k But seriously, emo. j/k

 

 

but seriously!

[Mordrak]

lol @ Praithos bet they're cutting themselves to a bit of Nightwish with excitement lol

 

Said without prejudice as a joke as I know the DW player who played the GK player...he looks like Billy Idol and will hate me slating Nightwish lol ;)

[Oiad]

Well, I don't believe in list-tailoring. My goal with any of my 40K armies is to build all-comer's lists and let them play anything and everything. If the DW player intended to build a list specifically designed to kill GKs ... fine. Let him. Just makes the challenge all the greater. ;)

 

There are so many ways to build all-comer's lists with the GK codex that there isn't a prescriptive way to go about it. ;)

Kinda skips my question though. It wasn't necessarily about fine-tuning responsive lists (you and your opponent could end up going around in circles under than intention) but rather the kind of list you would field in general, tailor-made or not. It's easy criticise lists on either side but it's hardly constructive when you decline to describe what kind of list would be better. :)

 

I did think it would be funny to see a Draigowing and a DW collide in a terminator doom orgy!

Hehehe, as funny as it would be, Draigowing would really test my nerves against DW. Admittedly I think it would be fun to test out silly lists full of fast-moving SRs and (Ugh) DKs against them. The notion of laying down a full GKTwing list that allows us to outnumber the opponent for once would also gets some chuckles.

[Wayland Games]

Guys,

 

we have a community figure write the newsletters, their brief from us is pretty brief.. usually a few words. Then we might tack on a comment from the boss.

 

If he writes them you will usually see references to Adam being odd, which he is.

 

Its only a few paragraphs and we'd love to see it morph into a zine of some sort but thats a lot of extra effort.

[number6]

It's easy criticise lists on either side but it's hardly constructive when you decline to describe what kind of list would be better. :P

Fair enough. :whistling:

 

Here's one of the lists I'm running at 1750 pts.

 

HQ

[89 pts] OM Inquisitor, terminator armour, daemonhammer, psycannon, 3 servo skulls

 

Troop

[120 pts] 5 Strikers, psycannon, justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

[120 pts] 5 Strikers, psycannon, justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

[225 pts] 5 Terminators, psycannon, hammer, 4 halberds

[205 pts] 5 Terminators, incinerator, hammer, 4 halberds

 

Fast Attack

[236 pts] Stormraven, TLMM, TLLC, hurricane bolters, searchlight

[150 pts] 5 Interceptors, psycannon, justicar w/hammer

 

Heavy Support

[235 pts] Dreadknight, heavy incinerator, personal teleporter

[135 pts] Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

[135 pts] Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

 

Total: 1750 pts

 

IMHO, this is a superior all-comer's list. Though even I wouldn't call it "optimized". It's still more of a fluffy-to-me-yet-I-get-all-my-toys-in-one-place-and-it's-reasonably-competitive list. :drool:

 

For "optimized", you could run something like the following.

 

HQ

[100 pts] Coteaz

[89 pts] OM Inquisitor, terminator armour, hammer, psycannon, 3 servo skulls

 

Elite

[195 pts] Venerable Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

[195 pts] Venerable Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

 

Troops

[30 pts] 3 Servitors, multimeltas

[55 pts] Chimera

[30 pts] 3 Servitors, multimeltas

[55 pts] Chimera

[30 pts] 3 Servitors, heavy bolters

[55 pts] Chimera

[30 pts] 3 Servitors, heavy bolters

[55 pts] Chimera

[230] pts 10 Strikers, 2 psycannons, Justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

[230] pts 10 Strikers, 2 psycannons, Justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

 

Heavy Support

[135 pts] Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

[135 pts] Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

 

Total: 1749 pts

 

That's just one example of an "optimized" list. There are more. Many more....

[embalancer]

Gotta go with what gentleman already said GC08. The reason people are in a huff was how the BR was posted. The language of being immune to new toys and walking all over is fightin words man. So saying its not gentlemanly to fire back ignores that the glove was already loosed and slapped. I would never say an army "can't" lose to another, that's silly but saying that a list favors another is legitimate. Plus, it's fun to bait Dark Angels players because they know deep down that the chapter is a bunch of emo kids :) j/k j/k But seriously, emo. j/k

 

 

but seriously!

 

I agree. Think were all (well most) of us can accept that a DW army in the right hands could run circles round most GK armies it was the way the artical made is sound as though there is no way that a GK army could beat a DW army unless the DW player had recently under gone a labotomy. They use the word optimised which means it should be able to counter a lot of what is being thrown by the DW.

 

If the list Mordark has given us is right then with so many CML why are there no terminator troops to soak up the crack missles? why do the purifiers have helbards when most of the DW have I1? Also wouldn't you go for a PC/AC combo on your dread instead (yes the ranges don't match up but it costs the same and you have a AP2 weapon).

 

As the GK is still a new army and fairly unknown army were likely to be quite touchy when it is implied that another army can simply walk all over us.... as they could be right

[BrotherWasted]

Some people don't like scatter weapons.

 

I still maintain that Assaulting a DW list is much better than running a servitor based pie plate gunline. You will cause far more wounds in Assault than you will by shooting.

 

Optimising to fight Terminators also means no Rifleman loadouts, IMO, since they don't really use transports. Psycannons will deal with vehicles/dreads. Again, it's only five wounds you need to push through to whipe out a unit, and automatically force them to use their invuln saves (which are going to be 5++ unless EVERY model is using hammer+ shield, which I seriously doubt they ever would).

 

On the other hand, yeah, 10 krak missiles a turn is quite scary. Every DW termie is also armed with a Power Weapon. It's just about putting out a higher volume of attacks.

[Brovius]

i may be overstepping the mark, but i see alot of egos in this thread..

why assume that wayland are feeding you lies? becuase you dont believe a deathwing army is capable of beating a GK army..

 

i beat a grey knights army with space marine scouts last week... are you gunna call me a liar too?

 

IMO there are three man aspects to winning a game, list, tactics and luck..

GK may (and i use that term lightly as we dont know the GK list) have the edge in list, but if the DW players has the upper hand in the other two then they will win..

 

assuming GKs will win a game is bad enough, but to then shout hogwash becuase a report is posted showing the opposite is maddening, and really not the behaviour of gentlemen..

the way it came across is that wayland thought it memorable, in part becuase it was unlikely, yet you still claim they are lying

think about the message it sends..

a: wayland are be liars (these guys have a great rep.. dont ruin that for them)

b: GK can never be beaten by DA/deathwing

not to mention your crapping on the hard work of the DW player... lets hope hes not a member of this board, god knows how youd treat him...

 

if you want to argue 'paper' potentials of armies thats fine, but dont pretend that GK couldnt lose to 'lesser' armies.. its a mistake that could lose you friends and games

 

It's nothing to do with our ego, it's the wording of Wayland's email. If anything, they are the ones with the ego.

They are only trying to clear stock of their Terminator kits and Dark Angel codices by providing an intentionally one-sided batrep against an "optimised" list that was flooded with PAGK and Psyfleman dreads, both of which die incredibly easy to CMLs.

 

Fair enough if a DW player beat a GK army. Good for him. That does not make it a 'magic, GK-slaughtering' army that will never lose to them. It was ONE batrep, using ONE standard DW list, and ONE very bad list for fighting an all-terminator army.

If the GK player had fielded a Terminator army with a Land Raider or two, the DW player would have crumbled.

[Brother Dylan]

Some people don't like scatter weapons.

 

I still maintain that Assaulting a DW list is much better than running a servitor based pie plate gunline. You will cause far more wounds in Assault than you will by shooting.

 

Optimising to fight Terminators also means no Rifleman loadouts, IMO, since they don't really use transports. Psycannons will deal with vehicles/dreads. Again, it's only five wounds you need to push through to whipe out a unit, and automatically force them to use their invuln saves (which are going to be 5++ unless EVERY model is using hammer+ shield, which I seriously doubt they ever would).

 

On the other hand, yeah, 10 krak missiles a turn is quite scary. Every DW termie is also armed with a Power Weapon. It's just about putting out a higher volume of attacks.

 

I lot of the deathwing armies in my area use almost exclusively use 4 stormshield & thunderhammer with a cml and lightning claw set ups on almost every squad.

[Angelis Mortis]

It's easy criticise lists on either side but it's hardly constructive when you decline to describe what kind of list would be better. ;)

Fair enough. :D

 

Here's one of the lists I'm running at 1750 pts.

 

HQ

[89 pts] OM Inquisitor, terminator armour, daemonhammer, psycannon, 3 servo skulls

 

Troop

[120 pts] 5 Strikers, psycannon, justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

[120 pts] 5 Strikers, psycannon, justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

[225 pts] 5 Terminators, psycannon, hammer, 4 halberds

[205 pts] 5 Terminators, incinerator, hammer, 4 halberds

 

Fast Attack

[236 pts] Stormraven, TLMM, TLLC, hurricane bolters, searchlight

[150 pts] 5 Interceptors, psycannon, justicar w/hammer

 

Heavy Support

[235 pts] Dreadknight, heavy incinerator, personal teleporter

[135 pts] Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

[135 pts] Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

 

Total: 1750 pts

 

IMHO, this is a superior all-comer's list. Though even I wouldn't call it "optimized". It's still more of a fluffy-to-me-yet-I-get-all-my-toys-in-one-place-and-it's-reasonably-competitive list. :P

 

For "optimized", you could run something like the following.

 

HQ

[100 pts] Coteaz

[89 pts] OM Inquisitor, terminator armour, hammer, psycannon, 3 servo skulls

 

Elite

[195 pts] Venerable Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

[195 pts] Venerable Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

 

Troops

[30 pts] 3 Servitors, multimeltas

[55 pts] Chimera

[30 pts] 3 Servitors, multimeltas

[55 pts] Chimera

[30 pts] 3 Servitors, heavy bolters

[55 pts] Chimera

[30 pts] 3 Servitors, heavy bolters

[55 pts] Chimera

[230] pts 10 Strikers, 2 psycannons, Justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

[230] pts 10 Strikers, 2 psycannons, Justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

 

Heavy Support

[135 pts] Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

[135 pts] Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

 

Total: 1749 pts

 

That's just one example of an "optimized" list. There are more. Many more....

 

Very interesting. Both lists are not too bad at all and should play pretty well. I would probably go with something other than Serivtors in second one though, as mindlock is probably going to irritate the crap out of you. But not too bad overall.

[antique_nova]

It's easy criticise lists on either side but it's hardly constructive when you decline to describe what kind of list would be better. :P

Fair enough. :cuss

 

Here's one of the lists I'm running at 1750 pts.

 

HQ

[89 pts] OM Inquisitor, terminator armour, daemonhammer, psycannon, 3 servo skulls

 

Troop

[120 pts] 5 Strikers, psycannon, justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

[120 pts] 5 Strikers, psycannon, justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

[225 pts] 5 Terminators, psycannon, hammer, 4 halberds

[205 pts] 5 Terminators, incinerator, hammer, 4 halberds

 

Fast Attack

[236 pts] Stormraven, TLMM, TLLC, hurricane bolters, searchlight

[150 pts] 5 Interceptors, psycannon, justicar w/hammer

 

Heavy Support

[235 pts] Dreadknight, heavy incinerator, personal teleporter

[135 pts] Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

[135 pts] Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

 

Total: 1750 pts

 

IMHO, this is a superior all-comer's list. Though even I wouldn't call it "optimized". It's still more of a fluffy-to-me-yet-I-get-all-my-toys-in-one-place-and-it's-reasonably-competitive list. ^_^

 

For "optimized", you could run something like the following.

 

HQ

[100 pts] Coteaz

[89 pts] OM Inquisitor, terminator armour, hammer, psycannon, 3 servo skulls

 

Elite

[195 pts] Venerable Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

[195 pts] Venerable Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

 

Troops

[30 pts] 3 Servitors, multimeltas

[55 pts] Chimera

[30 pts] 3 Servitors, multimeltas

[55 pts] Chimera

[30 pts] 3 Servitors, heavy bolters

[55 pts] Chimera

[30 pts] 3 Servitors, heavy bolters

[55 pts] Chimera

[230] pts 10 Strikers, 2 psycannons, Justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

[230] pts 10 Strikers, 2 psycannons, Justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

 

Heavy Support

[135 pts] Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

[135 pts] Dreadnought, 2x TLAC, psybolts

 

Total: 1749 pts

 

That's just one example of an "optimized" list. There are more. Many more....

 

Very interesting. Both lists are not too bad at all and should play pretty well. I would probably go with something other than Serivtors in second one though, as mindlock is probably going to irritate the crap out of you. But not too bad overall.

I thought that a unit of marines bigger than 6 couldn't take razorbacks.......

[greatcrusade08]

I thought that a unit of marines bigger than 6 couldn't take razorbacks.......

 

you can take them, just not use them :cuss

[antique_nova]

IMO there are three man aspects to winning a game, list, tactics and luck..

GK may (and i use that term lightly as we dont know the GK list) have the edge in list, but if the DW players has the upper hand in the other two then they will win..

 

Any player having the upper two in any of those three categories stand a very good chance of winning.................

 

i beat a grey knights army with space marine scouts last week... are you gunna call me a liar too?

 

LIAR! LIAR! YOUR SOUL WILL BE ON FIRE! NOW LET ME COME OVER AND PURGE YOU LIAR!

 

But that guy must have had a bad day or a bad list. :cuss

 

thanks

antique_nova

[antique_nova]

I thought that a unit of marines bigger than 6 couldn't take razorbacks.......

 

you can take them, just not use them :cuss

'Brother justicar, we brought a razorback with us and Holy Trigger Finger's hands are getting itchy on that turret'

 

'We can't, we can only take it with us, because our unit is larger than 6.'

 

'Understood brother marine. Holy Trigger Fingers, get your hands off that turret now! You can't use it today!

 

thanks

antique_nova

[Gentlemanloser]

Very interesting. Both lists are not too bad at all and should play pretty well. I would probably go with something other than Serivtors in second one though, as mindlock is probably going to irritate the crap out of you. But not too bad overall.

 

That list is quite close to a 'gunline' GK list posted on YTTH. Ther'es reaosns on there aobut the Servitos and mindlock. And why you shouldn't really be worried if your 30 point Servitor unit can do anything this turn.

 

Personally, I don't enjoy Henchmen, so won't be using any anyway, but YMMV! :cuss

[greatcrusade08]

But that guy must have had a bad day or a bad list. :D

 

so i could only ever beat a GK player who had bad luck or a really bad list?

its a good job i know your a decent person, i could really take that the wrong way :)

 

superior tactics can win a game outright.. luck is fickle, you could roll well all game and fail that one instant death save on your 230 point HQ.. your not having bad luck but one dice roll can change everything.

some paper lists do better in practice, others do worse.. especially interwebz lists

[Brother Captain Kezef]

superior tactics can win a game outright.. luck is fickle, you could roll well all game and fail that one instant death save on your 230 point HQ.. your not having bad luck but one dice roll can change everything.

some paper lists do better in practice, others do worse.. especially interwebz lists

 

Yeah, it can be amusing when the web-experts hold court and shout from the rooftops about their army and/or list being perfect and anything else is epic fail.

I twns to go for more exotic lists and go out of my way to smash "optimal" lists with my so-called "sub-par" armies.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm know for making just aobut every 5++ TDA save I'm called on to make.

 

I'm also know for failing every 2+ TDA save I'm made to take form things like Bolt Pistols.

[KnowThyEnemy]

we cant use razorbacks? since when? did we lose the ability to combat squad? <_<

and im sorry 6, i rarely disagree with you, but i still maintain my list will be a touch more effective overall. 40 purifiers is tough to take down. thats a lot of boots on the ground for the pts level combined with the ability to take on hordes or power armor pretty well.

 

and i dont care if its a "boring" list. we're talking efficient, not necessairly exciting :P

[antique_nova]

we cant use razorbacks? since when? did we lose the ability to combat squad? <_<

and im sorry 6, i rarely disagree with you, but i still maintain my list will be a touch more effective overall. 40 purifiers is tough to take down. thats a lot of boots on the ground for the pts level combined with the ability to take on hordes or power armor pretty well.

 

and i dont care if its a "boring" list. we're talking efficient, not necessairly exciting :P

Do those Purifers have halberds? if not, then your not doing much against another GK army, especially if they charge you first.

[antique_nova]

we cant use razorbacks? since when? did we lose the ability to combat squad? :D

and im sorry 6, i rarely disagree with you, but i still maintain my list will be a touch more effective overall. 40 purifiers is tough to take down. thats a lot of boots on the ground for the pts level combined with the ability to take on hordes or power armor pretty well.

 

and i dont care if its a "boring" list. we're talking efficient, not necessairly exciting ;)

Do those Purifers have halberds? if not, then your not doing much against another GK army, especially if they charge you first.

 

 

But that guy must have had a bad day or a bad list. ;)

 

so i could only ever beat a GK player who had bad luck or a really bad list?

its a good job i know your a decent person, i could really take that the wrong way ;)

 

superior tactics can win a game outright.. luck is fickle, you could roll well all game and fail that one instant death save on your 230 point HQ.. your not having bad luck but one dice roll can change everything.

some paper lists do better in practice, others do worse.. especially interwebz lists

 

Decent doesn't even begin to cover it. <_< :P

Bad ice. I swore an oath never to use GWS of any kind ever again after....after....the abominations that i witnessed - two tourney games in a row.

 

thanks

antique_nova