Magister Severin Loth vs Vindicar

[Cirius]

Hello guys, I have a quick q about the vindicars shield breaker round. How do you fell it would work vs .Severins armour.

(Severin is a special character for the Red Scorpions, from Imp. Armour 9)

 

The armour of Selket: The armour of Selket is a suit of artificer armour that incorporates a psychic hood. In addtion the weaer can use their own psychic energies to empower the suits defences further. At the beginning of his turn, by passing a psychic test, Loth's 2+ save becomes a 2+ invulnerable save until the beginning of his next turn. This counts as one of Loth's psychic uses of a psychic power that truen, but may not be negated by outside forces (such as an enemys psychic hood for example).

 

 

 

So what are your thoughts?

[dswanick]

Off hand, it does say it may not be negated. But that could be the use of the psychic power, not the resulting invulnerable save. I guess - discuss it with your opponent before the game, which you should be doing with all FW rules anyway.

[Valkyrion]

I'd play it that the Vindicare does remove the invulnerable save, but that Loth can psyker it back up again next turn.

[shatter]

or phase... if he can.

[timmytool]

I think it could be argued that the "but may not be negated" comment it in reference to the power going off not the modified armor save, hence the hood example. (edit: so he losses the save)

 

If my above is true it could be argued that the shield breaker round removes all saves, as the power changes the armor to be a invulnerable save thus he no longer has a normal armor save

 

l thought of a counter argument "the power gives the invol save and the shield-breaker only removes invols granted by items of wargear (C:GK P53)" but the armor provides the save the psychic power changes it to a invol (thus not granting it)

 

food for though.

[Grey Mage]

Is it listed as a power or as wargear?

 

It appears from the quote to be listed as wargear, but temporary- so Id have to agree with Valkyrion and Shatter- it goes down, but can be brought back up.

[timmytool]

and as it is his ONLY save he has none after that...

 

on the being able to get it back l think he losses his saves untill it turns back to a regular armor save...

 

The way the shield-breaker says "that model loses any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear immediately, and for the rest of the battle. as long as he has a invol save granted by his wargear at the time of the shot he loses it. So the next time he successfully casts the power he losses all saves until it goes back to a regular save, for the rest of the battle.

[shatter]

That goes against the 'can't use a player's codex against them' rule.

 

However, as the power lasts as long as a psychic power for it is one, it is only that cast that is destroyed for the rest of the battle. He can cast again because the vindicare didn't destroy the power, only an instance of it's effect.

[Valkyrion]

His normal armour is a 2+ save, which the shield breaker cannot destroy. There are no rules for destroying normal armour. The Shield Breaker destroys Invulnerable saves, not normal saves. Read the quote you've quoted '...any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear...'

 

The 2++ is an invulnerable save granted by a psychic test. If anything there is a better case that Loth loses no save at all as the invulnerable save has been granted by a characteristic test and not wargear.

[shatter]

The fact that it's in his wargear entry gives greater weight to the breaker affecting it than not, imo. Sure, it takes a test to turn on... but it's still wargear.

[Valkyrion]

His armour is wargear, which provides a normal save, and cannot be broken.

 

His 2++ isn't provided by his wargear, its provided by a characteristic test.

[timmytool]

His armour is wargear, which provides a normal save, and cannot be broken.

yes but the characters own power turns off the armor save by "turning" it into a invol save

 

His 2++ isn't provided by his wargear, its provided by a characteristic test.

The Armour save "becomes" a invol save so the armor is still providing the save

 

the power builds upon the armor but does not "grant" any save what-so-ever look at Magister Sevrin Loth's rules, the power says "lesh's 2+ armor save becomes a 2+ Invulnerable save...."

[Valkyrion]

How would you apply it to Black Templar terminators? The army list doesn't actually say they wear terminator armour. Would you say the shield breaker has no effect against them? What about against LotD as they don't have wargear either, so they'd always get their 3++? Necron Wraiths?

 

Anyway, the 2+ armour save becomes a 2++ save as a rules mechanic. The actual wargear itself just provides a 2+. The 2++ happens as a result of a characteristic test and counts as a psychic power, not wargear.

[timmytool]

2 wrongs don't make a right just cuss GW mucked up on some units/codexes does not pull way from the fact that this one is written this way

 

in this case even the fluff supports my view of the rules... it is the custom armor when powered with the psychic energy that produce the invol save

[Valkyrion]

Anyway, after all this I stand by my first post, that it removes it but can be turned back on again.

 

I don't agree that it should remove his basic 2+ save.

[gil galed]

it states that his wargear allows him to take a test and activate a 2++ save, the shieldbreaker round stops wargear that grants a ++ save (be it all the time or via psychic test). As such i'd say that he loses his 2++ save and his ability to activate it, the 2++ save is not a psychic test but from the wargear which requires a psychic test. No wargear no test, so he can't reactivate it as it's been "broken" quite literally.

 

Keeps the 2+ save though, after all it only says it stops the ++ save from wargear, not that it breaks entirely.

 

the "may not be negated" bit is clearly about the power not the save. It's in the same sentence as the power and is not separate. I think you'd be taking some liberties with the English language to argue otherwise.

 

A similar example to his save might be a GK NFS, it gives you +1 inv. save but only in combat, shooting a SB round would stop it working ever, you wouldn't get to have it in subsequent rounds because you're somehow reactivating it every combat phase.

 

So yeh, basically the save is from the wargear, SB stops wargear working, and as such you can't cast a psychic power granted by a piece of wargear which you technically no longer have....

 

 

Alternatively having just wrote all that it could be argued that the wargear simply grants the "psychic power" to give you a ++ and as such the SB round does nothing as there is no ++ save to negate... hmmm

 

~Gil <_<

 

Helpful right?

[Dusktiger]

i would say to look past just the rule itself and look at Loth's stats. He has 3 psychic powers per turn but can only really use 2 powers per turn; the 3rd psychic power is the conversion of his 2+ into a 2++. As i read the rule, it seems to me the 2++ save is a psychic power that he earns the right to use because of the armour. does this... shield breaker? round affect ++ saves gained from a psychic power? or just wargear? From what i can read, the fluff of the rule seems that he channels his psychic energy into the armour, making a psychic barrier that acts in similar nature to a Force Dome psychic power, but rather than him and the unit he's with gaining a 5++, he focuses the energy around his armor alone, gaining a stronger 2++ for himself. (note; how greedy of you Loth ;))

 

So again, can this shield breaker round affect a power like Force Dome? if the answer is no, i'd be inclined to say that it does not affect Loth's psychic power that makes the 2+ into a 2++.

 

Besides, does it really matter that much that you guys beat that rule into the ground? he still has to pass the psychic test before he can even get the 2++. and he could risk a Perils of the Warp trying to get it. Frankly, i'd rather let him keep trying for it every turn and possibly kill himself in the process than argue that some assassin can or cant disable the power with a sniper round.

[Chengar Qordath]

Besides, does it really matter that much that you guys beat that rule into the ground? he still has to pass the psychic test before he can even get the 2++. and he could risk a Perils of the Warp trying to get it. Frankly, i'd rather let him keep trying for it every turn and possibly kill himself in the process than argue that some assassin can or cant disable the power with a sniper round.

Perils is only a 1/18 chance of happening, and in an average-length game he's only going to be making six psychic tests, so the odds of killing himself via Perils are pretty low. On top of that, if he activates Perils on a double 1, he still probably wouldn't take a wound thanks to his 2+ invulnerable save.

[Dusktiger]

On top of that, if he activates Perils on a double 1, he still probably wouldn't take a wound thanks to his 2+ invulnerable save.

 

well if he rolls a double 1 trying to activate the power that gives him his 2++, clearly, he's not gonna have the 2++ to save him from it, now is he?

 

and remember, he's not like a normal libby; he uses 3 powers per turn, like Tigurius does

[Chengar Qordath]

On top of that, if he activates Perils on a double 1, he still probably wouldn't take a wound thanks to his 2+ invulnerable save.

 

well if he rolls a double 1 trying to activate the power that gives him his 2++, clearly, he's not gonna have the 2++ to save him from it, now is he?

Um ... yes he will; the BRB is rather clear on that point.